loosecannon
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posted on September 21, 2001 05:11:04 AM new
I'm thinking about buying a good, affordable rifle and was leaning toward something chambered for .308 Win., mainly because they can also fire 7.62 NATO (I understand there is some debate about that, headspace reasons, etc., and would like your opinion on that too).
I want a general-purpose rifle that would be a good hunting weapon, but I like the idea of being able to use surplus ammo for target practice. Is the surplus ammo cheap and readily available?
What brand/model .308 rifle would you recommend? I don't necessarily want a military surplus rifle, but would consider one.
If the .308 is not the better choice, then what is?
I've had 30-30 Win. in the past but I don't want to go back to lever action. I want a smooth bolt action.
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uaru
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posted on September 21, 2001 05:50:17 AM new
What brand/model .308 rifle would you recommend?
Personally I think the Springfield Armory M1A is a top grade example of a rifle that uses the .308. Comes in several flavors, Standard, Match Grade, Super Match Grade. It is the civilian version of the M-14.
Not exactly a rifle you'd use for hunting, the standard M1A is on the heavy side, the match and super match grades are VERY heavy, but also VERY accurate.
The M1A is a gas operated auto-loader. For a bolt action in the .308 I'd look to Sako.
Personal opinion there, your milage may vary.
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krs
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posted on September 21, 2001 05:54:31 AM new
Hi,
.308's fine. Accurate and plentiful though less plentiful than it has been. Heavy enough for most hunting uses in this country
Your rifle is a Remington 700 ADL or a Savage 110/112 series. The Savages are gaining a heck of a reputation for accuracy, are less expensive, uglier (but not really bad), and the barrels are user interchangeable. The company is kind of like a big family and they care a LOT about their products. I like the laminated stock because it feels solid but they offer all in a composite black one also. The Remingtons are getting strange now with safety locks on the bolt and some reports of very bad barrels/accuracy with little factory assistance.
You realize that anything I say will start a Chevy-Ford type harangue, but only I know what I'm talking about. 
Ignore claims of "will shoot 1/4" groups ALL DAY LONG". People that say things like that are full of it.
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loosecannon
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posted on September 21, 2001 06:02:12 AM new
uaru
Are those rifles affordable?
I want a good, all-around, garden variety rifle.
By the way, I'm left-handed. The only bolt action rifles I've ever shot have of course, been right handed models, and I always found myself reaching over to work the bolt w/ my left hand. I would need to train myself to use my right hand.
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krs
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posted on September 21, 2001 06:08:14 AM new
Have a look: http://www.savagearms.com/new/index.htm
Street prices of around $400. for some, maybe tops at $600. More in the store, of course.
Did you say left handed?
http://www.savagearms.com/new/index.htm
[ edited by krs on Sep 21, 2001 06:11 AM ]
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loosecannon
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posted on September 21, 2001 06:11:02 AM new
krs,
Sounds like I need to look at Savage 110/112 .308 then.
Would you have any problem using NATO 7.62 in this rifle?
Thanks a lot.
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uaru
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posted on September 21, 2001 06:12:53 AM new
uaru: Are those rifles affordable?
Actually Springfield Armory and Sako are rather pricy in comparison to your other brands.
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krs
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posted on September 21, 2001 06:14:44 AM new
No, it shouldn't be a problem. Factory and military ammo are both made to SAAMI specs, and once you fire a cartridge, if you survive, that case will be headspaced for your rifle. LOL!
BTW, for .308 you'll look at the short action versions in either brand.
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krs
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posted on September 21, 2001 06:17:58 AM new
Springfield armory are WAY overpriced sops to people who want to play soldier. There are people building the rifle for only about $300. more, and their custom guns DO shoot well. Happen to know someone who does that. 
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loosecannon
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posted on September 21, 2001 06:28:44 AM new
That Savage 110 with composite stock/stainless barrel doesn't look ugly to me at all.
They make them left-handed?
I was thinking it would be better (and cheaper) to simply train myself to use a right-handed rifle. I can do it.
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krs
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posted on September 21, 2001 06:34:44 AM new
Sure. I'm left handed and my match rifles are all right bolt, right port because I've used the bolt that way all of my life and the port is right in front of my face which speeds loading doing what I do. Left hand models have always been limited as to caliber (which doesn't matter in this case because .308 is always offered) and are now awkward to me. BUT, if I were going to learn to shoot a boltgun and I had any intention to take it in the field, I think I'd opt for the left hand version. Otherwise you'll have to reach over your scope if you use one.
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gravid
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posted on September 21, 2001 06:47:32 AM new
If I can toss in 2¢ the Remington 700 is available in lefty. Don't know about the Savage.
If you think that you may want to alter the rifle from stock to increase accuracy change weight etc. you will find more components and people experienced at altering the weapon with the Remington.
The price is relative. Back in the 1800's a really accurate long range rifle cost about as much as a summer's work for an experienced finish carpenter.
A friend of mine has a H & K autoloader chambered for .308 and it has no sharp rifling - it has a electro-micropolished polyangle barrel with all radii and no sharp corners.
The barrel threads a full two inches into the reciever and the scope mounts are tig welded to the reciever after alignment. As KRS says stories of shooting into a dime all day are crap. But this will shoot into 2 inches at 200 yards for as long as your shoulder will last with factory loaded ammo. And when you are done you look down the barrel and there is nothing to clean out. It costs about $6,000 - about the same wage -wise as a state of the art rife 100 years ago.
That makes the Reminton at $600 start to look like a pretty good deal and affordable for what you get.
[ edited by gravid on Sep 21, 2001 06:48 AM ]
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krs
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posted on September 21, 2001 07:17:52 AM new
Ummm, stories of shooting into dimes and much less are not crap if benchrest shooters tell them. Anything larger than .250" is not competitive. Even that barely will get by in a local club type match. But we aren't talking about that, eh?
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loosecannon
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posted on September 21, 2001 08:31:48 AM new
If I could put a shot inside a one foot circle at 100 yards, that's probably accurate enough for practical purposes. I'd be happy with that.
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gravid
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posted on September 21, 2001 09:07:10 AM new
Yes - I have seen some of your targets krs. Nice. Takes not only super rifle but reloading skill and shooting technique. And you still can't really blaze away all day without your point wandering and widen as your barrel heats and eventually loads up and needs cleaned. And when you talk about shooting out past 400 meters a ballistic computer a degree in meteorology and a crystal ball are handy.
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krs
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posted on September 21, 2001 09:18:03 AM new
We use windflags. 1000 yd. benchrest events are won with 2-3" groups.
You're talking about 'minute of Bambi' sized groups, loosecannon.
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loosecannon
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posted on September 21, 2001 09:23:43 AM new
Exactly. Bambi-sized groups.
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gravid
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posted on September 21, 2001 09:36:37 AM new
Oh bad bad bad. Bambi lovers will be here within minutes with flamethrowers. LOL w/tears.
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loosecannon
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posted on September 21, 2001 09:44:28 AM new
Hey, I'm all for conservation, where necessary.
But this area has a very large population of deer. They get hit by cars all the time. There is nothing wrong with legally licensed hunting and it actually helps the overall deer population. If they continued to propogate totally unchecked it would be much worse for the deer.
That's the truth of it.
Edited to add: There doesn't seem to be a large enough population of large predators around here to naturally thin out the deer populations--not by much anyway.
[ edited by loosecannon on Sep 21, 2001 09:53 AM ]
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uaru
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posted on September 21, 2001 10:04:10 AM new
Bambi lovers will be here within minutes with flamethrowers
No flame thrower here I've got a lot of rifles and pistols but no flame thrower. I would like to point out one aspect of trophy hunters that has an inherent flaw. When nature (disease, famine, natural predators) kills a deer they kill the weakest. When a trophy hunter goes after a deer they will pick the strongest and largest. A man with a high powered rifle doesn't fit in the evolution of survival of the fittest.
That's one argument that bambi lovers have that I have never been able to dispute.
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kcpick4u
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posted on September 21, 2001 10:10:07 AM new
If you not looking for a tack driver and you want something that is relatively inexpensive to shoot. You might consider a Russian SKS, however, the safety will be difficult to use left handed. It is a fairly robust cartridge with ample power to shoot deer and is a rugged design.
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loosecannon
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posted on September 21, 2001 10:11:12 AM new
That's a good argument.
But if I chose to hunt and kill a deer, I wouldn't be doing it for a trophy.
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gravid
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posted on September 21, 2001 10:11:12 AM new
Have to admit I saw one heck of a motley looking deer trot past me with clumps of it's coat out and all matted and skinny looking and thought - "Do you want to eat something that looks that sick?" and let it go.
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