posted on September 21, 2001 06:19:12 AM new
In the thread on allowing Mexicans to gain citizenship by military service I confused several as to what I meant. I will try to state it clearer.
The basis of my arguement was the Declaration of Independance frames as a basis for action the moral base that "All men are created equal." they also claim all men have "certain inalienable rights" - "Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness."
These are not relative statements - they are absolutes.
How can a nation that framed such a belief then slam the door in the face of those wanting to join to America to enjoy such rights? Are we not alienating them from enjoying such rights? Are these rights for citizens only so that "All men" should read "All Americans?" Are we like the Germans who claimed the role of Master race and made all others lessor?
No they are universal but rather than treat all men as brothers the door has been cracked open just a little to allow those entry that will benefit we who are already here. If they have skills and wealth they are welcome as are a few who may petition on the basis of danger fom the most extreme of tyrantical rulers. We will allow such a "political" need because it serves to bolster our imaige.
However I say to you there is no boundry between political oppression and economic oppession.
The man who is forced to live in poverty and class restrictions and can not see the fruits of his labor to make a decent life for his family in Mexico is as oppressed and deprived of his inalienable right to the pursuit of happiness as someone who can not make political speech freely in China. Yet we treat the one as worthy of giving shelter to the oppressed one and not the other.
Political abstractions such as free speech are important and worthy but the physical reality of poverty that is brought on by policy and taxes that negate property rights is just as worthy of rescue.
If we welcome someone who says "I could not speak my mind." and turn away someone who says "I could not feed my family and have a secure home for them." we are missing the point. What freedom is there in being able to say what you want but it doesn't give you power to put bread before your children? Political actions have physical consequences. Perhaps if the wronged ones were more elequent they could make that plain. Perhaps it is so obvious they don't see how we can be missing the point.
I do not think it is moral to close the door of our affection to anyone who says - "You have a better way of life. I want to join myself to you."
These people overwhelmingly do not want a hand out. They are the people who will be, in a few years, small business owners and taxpayers if given the chance.
There is more than enough room both physically and in work to be done by them.
To not open the door to ANYONE wanting to come into the country to live and work unles there is some concrete reason such as criminal history is both self defeating and contrary to the basic principles upon which the country was founded. It is based on selfishness - bigoted fear of foreign culture and people - and a lack of will to follow a moral course.
If those rights are truely inalienable then there is a great and shameful answer to be made for not opening the door to anyman who wants to enter and saying "Brother."
posted on September 21, 2001 07:31:05 AM new
Nice sentiments, wrong time. Xenophobia and racism are parading around shamelessly, cloaked in the mantle of "patriotism." And it's going to increase, as more Americans die. Get back in the box, it's not going to be safe outside.
posted on September 21, 2001 07:41:11 AM new
To the people from other countries--including Mexico--who come here legally, I say WELCOME! Come on in!
To the people--including Mexicans--who come here legally and embrace America as their new country and become citizens with all that entails, I say WELCOME! Come on in!
To those people--including Mexicans--who come here illegally, put a drain on the welfare system, don't bother to learn English (like it or not, that *is* our main language), and can't be bothered to assimilate into American culture, I say HIT THE ROAD.
Yeah, yeah, yeah...the argument runs that these illegals come here & "do jobs no American ever would." Which is a load of crock.
posted on September 21, 2001 07:54:37 AM new
bunnicula - You are hereby sentenced to pick strawberries in the sun for $30 a day and live in a migrant shack for the next season for educational purposes.
May God have mercy on your soul mis muy amable amigo.
I would really like to know how someone can apply for welfare and get it with no birth certificate or documentation? Sounds like the urban legand "welfare cadillac" to me.
[ edited by gravid on Sep 21, 2001 08:11 AM ]
posted on September 21, 2001 08:11:29 AM new
gravid, in reply to your post to bunnicula: I would like to thank the illegal aliens in my town for turning a nice town into trash, for teaching me that a sofa and refrigerator are lovely accents to your porch. I would also like to thank them for making no effort to learn English, we should, after all, learn Spanish so we can understand them. Thanks to them for the higher crime rate and the hugely increased welfare rolls in our town. Thank you for teaching me that it is better to work for someone who will pay you cash so that their wives can have babies courtesy of the state and get free medical care.
Most of all, I would like to thank them for all of the non-English speaking children they send to our schools, my children did not have the opportunity to learn anything the teachers were too busy helping the Spanish kids.
May God have mercy on a country that cannot afford to pay all for all of those welfare checks, food stamps, and free medical care. What good is charity when people take and take and give nothing in return? If these people would come here legally, learn the language and get real jobs the slimeballs who take advantage of the illegals would have to pay a real wage.
posted on September 21, 2001 08:18:35 AM new
I hate picking strawberries. The rest of my family love it...associate it with gardening which we have always made a family past time.
I still associate it with the Migrant Workers I saw picking strawberries when I was a child.
Gravid, I agree that economic opression is just as draining on body and soul as political opression, maybe even more so.
In the case of Mexico...in present times, would we be better off assisting the nation towards a better life. With the NATA in effect, it is possible...in theory. Yet the cash benefits the owners, the rich, much more than the workers.
The standard of living in Mexico for many, that they are willing to face death to come to the US, to live in hovels, to work menial jobs, face deportation and daily harassment...this turns my stomach. They still feel that it is worth all of this to earn a better wage (though extremely low by our standards).
posted on September 21, 2001 08:30:20 AM new
Ummm...
I think we are discussing allowing people in legally because of economic hardship (opression). Currently we allow immigration for political opression, but most very poor Mexican's (and other nationalities) do not qualify. Because their hardship is economic they cannot enter the US legally.
Gravid's hypothesis is that economic opression is just as much a threat to the pursuit of happiness, etc., so shouldn't this be a valid, legal reason to enter the US? Is this a right for all man(kind) or does this premise apply to Americans only?
posted on September 21, 2001 08:33:11 AM new
hcross, I have to agree with you. In my town, one of our largest employers, a pork plant, closed and was re-opened by a different corporation. Instead of rehiring local residents, illegals were bussed into our town and now hold most of the jobs in that plant.
The changes in this town since the pork plant re-opened have been amazing. I'm lucky, because I actually live about 10 miles outside of town.
These Mexican people aren't working at low paying jobs here. While the pork plant isn't a particularly desirable place to work, the pay isn't bad for this area. There were and still are plenty of local people who would like to work there.
posted on September 21, 2001 08:33:14 AM new
hcross - actually I agree with you that accommadating people who have no desire to learn English is counterproductive. And I agree that the illegal status gives employeers a shelter to force this people to work for less than fair wage out of fear of being turned in.
The language issue is seperate from immigration issues.
When They want to do business in Spanish refuse. I have had people try that "No Inges - No Ingles" on me when being rude in a store and when I told them in Spanish to get their little fanny in the back of the line like everyone else they before I kicked it they were hugely embarrassed.
The wage issue would be pretty much corrected if all immigration was by definition legal.
That they are poor and lack the same sense of taste as we do is something that is less apparent as income increases. Most people who are earning $40 or $50k a year will choose not to have a refrigerator on the front porch and if they have a sofa they have it glassed in and call it the sunroom. If your community would choose to you could address these issues with zoning.
Here in my area they regard a basketball hoop on a garage with the same distain as you do a refrigerator on the porch. So they pass laws saying you can not do that and send the sheriff out to warn them and then issue a ticket. In fact you are not allowed to park a RV, a trailer with snowmobiles, a commercial vehicle or a boat on a residential lot. Nor may you put up fences past the front of the home or erect seperate dog houses or play houses most places.
If there is income in the home most of these strange foreign customs disappear with the second and third generation. Although the two you mentioned are acceptable in rural areas of West Virginia and Southern Ohio I have visited.
I am not foolish enough to think there are no issues but there are ways to correct them without using the same sledgehammer cure on everyone.
posted on September 21, 2001 08:37:47 AM new
krs - Thanks for a good straightforward answer. I have to learn more about that.
Quanto dinero por una carta verde? I have a scanner and a - oh never mind.
BittyBug - You got it first time. The moral issues outweight the convenience issues.
I remember the Irish were blasted as huge loud drinkers who stunk up the neighborhood with cabbage - the Eye-talians as winos who sang too loud - the Chinese as fish stinkers who set off firecrackers. I guess nobody liked how the foreigners smelled or sounded and they all eventually got integrated fairly well by the 3rd or 4th generation.
But this language sillyness is a threat to integration.
[ edited by gravid on Sep 21, 2001 08:44 AM ]
posted on September 21, 2001 08:56:37 AM newGravid: You ask about illegals & welfare benefits. In addition to fake green cards, the way of choice is to step across our border & give birth to a child. Voila! There's your ticket to welfare benefits and food stamps. One of my friends worked for several years for the social services office of San Bernardino county and saw this happening all the time.
posted on September 21, 2001 09:12:13 AM new
Thank Bun.. You might find it interesting that we've known of some people here in Detroit without insurance who zipped across the border as soon as the wife seemed to be having the kid into Canada and then had an "emergency" while having dinner over there so the Canadian medical system treated them as a guest and took care of everything for free.
People can be pretty crafty - Eh?
posted on September 21, 2001 09:34:38 AM new
They drive $30-40k cars and still think it is acceptable to have a sofa on the porch here. We make pretty good money Gravid, but I cannot afford a $30,000 pickup. Maybe it is because we have bills to pay and children to support. I resent people who come here illegally, do nothing, and live better than I do and there is plenty of that in my Texas town. Sure, there are exceptions, but very few of them.
What some people don't understand is that when a pregnant woman comes over and has their baby, that then gives them to right to bring their whole extended family.
There are plenty of zoning laws in our town, but they do no good. We called the police once a week on our neighbors who play Spanish music so loud everything in our house vibrates.
posted on September 21, 2001 09:58:33 AM new
gravid - When Italian,Polish ,Irish etc immigrants came here it was their intention to become Americans and they wanted to learn English. They left their home country behind. Also there were no social programs such as welfare and food stamps and state paid medical programs. In So. Ca. they fly the Mexican flag and some who have been in this country for years never learn much English because there are vast areas where only Spanish is spoken. In fact under much opposition it was voted to teach the school kids in English instead of Spanish. If we did not have all these people with only 6th grade educations coming illegally into this country perhaps the wages for the jobs they do would be higher. A lot are employed in food packing plants and in construction - not just in mowing lawns and picking crops.
buyhigh
posted on September 21, 2001 10:04:48 AM new
Well I have to admit that sounds pretty bad.
I would be rather upset with the police also for not supporting you better than that. I have to say our local police her are real quick to come out for "irritation" complaints - actually they beg you to do so before they grow into bigger cases.
I knew a university prof. that just came in from Germany and he had to answer all sorts of silly questions about would he traffic in narcotics or practice polygamy here that nobody would answer truthfully if they were going to do such things. I was thinking with a giggle they should have some do you intend to put a frig. on your front porch and play loud music questions. Probably would not do anymore good but at least it would be on target more.
Have to admit your documentation shows a change is needed in the current system.
posted on September 21, 2001 10:29:43 AM new
Well, gravid, it is a small town, 10,000 people, 4,000 documented, unknown amount of illegals. This is a little town out in the middle of nowhere, closest major city is Amarillo and two hours away, if this is happening here, it must be happening in other places also. I used to be one of the most tolerant people you could imagine, "live and let live", that was before I had to move to Texas and live right in the middle of it. It sure changes your perspective.
My husband works with a few Spanish that were born on this country, did you know that they are just as prejudiced against their own people who live this way as people like me are?
posted on September 21, 2001 10:31:22 AM new
What really gets my goat is that if one speaks out against illegal immigration there are cries of racism, intolerance, bigotry and discrimination.
I guess I must be a racist, intolerant bigot then. I welcome people who come here legally, learn our language, and embrace America as their country of choice.
And now I will cement my racist, bigoted image: I expect people of Mexican heritage who are born in the United States, or who come here legally & become citizens of the US, to embrace the US as their country--not Mexico. I am really, really, sick & tired of seeing the Mexican flag waved, displayed & brandished instead of the American flag at sporting events, get togethers, on cars, etc. etc. etc. etc.
