posted on October 5, 2001 07:56:10 PM new
I’m sure that none of you need to be reminded what happened on September the eleventh. What blows my mind is that any intelligent person could say “I never expected anything like that” or “How could anyone do something like that”. It just makes me want to tell them to go back to watching MTV or Pro Wrestling and leave reality to the Real People. The only thing that surprises me is that the loonies couldn’t get their hands on a nuclear device. What so many people are not willing to face is the fact that their lives mean nothing to a fanatic.
Throughout history there have been fanatics with warped world-views who have caused vast numbers of people to suffer and to die only to forward a belief. Mohammed of Mecca led his warriors on the first jihad (holy war) to win the Arabian Peninsula for Islam at the point of a sword, slaying any Jew or Christian that got in the way. A few centuries later Crusaders from Europe invaded that region to reintroduce Christianity at the point of a sword. But long before those events Joshua led his Hebrew army into Canaan slaughtering every Canaanite man woman and child in the name of God. In Renaissance times the Turks began to overrun Greece, the Balkans, and Central Europe to spread the faith of Islam at the point of the sword. This is when Prince Vlad Tepesch (Dracula) became a Romanian national hero. At one time the Islam controlled world was as far into Europe as to include Vienna before being driven back again at the point of the sword.
All this still goes on. What do you think the conflicts in the Balkans, the Philippines, Indonesia, India, and East Africa are all about? Three great religions have grown out of the simple faith of a Semitic shepherd named Abram who came from Ur of the Chaldes in ancient Mesopotamia: Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.
Anyone who studies those religions will tell you that the two principles that they share are “monotheism” and “exclusivism”. All believe in only one almighty God (Jehovah, Yahweh, or Allah). And all believe that only followers of their particular religion have the excusive right to go to Heaven or Paradise and thus spend eternity with their God. As long as believers of these faiths accept the believers of the others as believers though perhaps a bit eccentric there are no problems. But every so often a group of militant fundamentalists decide that anyone who doesn’t worship God in the exact correct manner is an abomination and must be forcibly converted or destroyed. Then you get a holy war. Islam is unusually susceptible to this because its founder was in fact a warlord of sorts who led his “holy warriors” on a campaign of military conquest, setting up theocratic governments, thus setting a theocratic precedent. Judaism and Christianity on the other hand have not usually been as demanding of clerical rule of society. America’s concept of separation of church and state is sheer anathema to Islamic fundamentalists.
In today’s world of haves and have-nots, the have-nots want to know what it is that keeps them from being as successful as people in other lands. In the Middle East the oil rich sheiks ride in Lear jets and limos. They have chateaus in San Moritz and Monaco. They eat caviar for breakfast while bathing in gold plated bathtubs. Meanwhile their fellow Arabs who are not oil land owners live in fly infested shacks and toil long hours in the hot sun just to survive. The sheiks who own the media tell the people that they are poor because the Americans and Europeans are exploiting them by taking their natural resources for next to nothing and not sharing their wealth.
Then come the fundamentalist whackoes who tell the poor people that we can be rich if we can destroy America. They say that if America collapses into chaos and economic depression, Europe and Asia will follow. Then no one will buy the oil from the sheiks. She sheiks will abdicate their thrones, the politicians of the West will resign in disgrace, and Islamic theocracies will emerge to run the governments of the world equitably under Islamic law, and everybody will live happily ever after.
They point to the success of the Mujahedein warriors over the Soviets in Afghanistan in the 1980s, and the subsequent collapse of the Soviet economy. This is obviously a delusional world-view, but it is working to recruit thousands of young Muslim men every year to the cause of world Fundamental Islamism. It feeds on ignorance, paranoia and hate just like the various domestic Aryan and Afro centric hate groups do, but this is much bigger, and thus much more dangerous.
Most of us bikers don’t have our heads buried in the sand or the TV set. The simple act of riding outside of a cage puts us into more intimate contact with the real world. We need to get in touch with others and with our political suits and make sure they don’t make us as big an ass as the Soviet Union was in the 80’s. The best weapon that we have is the truth. Along with aircraft carriers in the Persian Gulf we should have TV station and radio station ships broadcasting the truth to the poor slobs in the Middle East who are treated like mushrooms. Their government owned TV and radio stations keep them in the dark and feed them bullsh*t. Maybe when they learn that the real reason they’re poor is because their sheiks are squandering their national resources on private jets and pricey hookers, they might think differently. Perhaps if they see scenes of life in America where Moslems work and play along with people of other faiths and share in the same lifestyle they may not be so paranoid or hateful.
You have a PC or MAC; use it. Check foreign sites like BBC, (Itar Tass charges a fee), the Register, Haaretz, and others. Learn about your world and tell others, co-workers, friends, business associates, customers. Lets wake up America before these screwballs trick us into going the way of the USSR to financial ruin. The sad truth is that they wouldn’t win even if we were ruined. Nobody would win. It would only hasten the onset of the next “Dark Age”.
posted on October 6, 2001 12:45:28 AM new
No response needed..this is a GREAT piece of writing!!! I just wanted to BUMP it so more would read it. THANKS Poc!!!!!
Keith
I assume full responsibility for my actions, except
the ones that are someone else's fault.
posted on October 6, 2001 12:56:38 AM newPerhaps if they see scenes of life in America where Moslems work and play along with people of other faiths and share in the same lifestyle they may not be so paranoid or hateful.
What has nagged me is that some of the hijackers were here mixing in our society for several years. Why did it fail?
posted on October 6, 2001 04:24:44 AM new
Pretty much agree except that most of the Christians gave up the idea of monotheism
in about the third century and adopted half hearted polytheistic mysticism called the
trinity although you will not find that term in the scriptures anymore than LIMBO the
directing of prayer to saints or any number of "christian" doctrines.
We see in the Taliban what a real moslem theocracy works like. Kind of hard to break
the information hold on people who are mostly illiterate, have few radios and not
allowed to own TV's or look at a photograph.
That's one reason they say the people there would not know Bin Laden if he walked down the street. We have seen his face but they have not.
posted on October 6, 2001 06:34:16 AM new
This is perhaps the right place to add my thoughts to what is going on. I remember WWII, Korea, Viet Nam, Gulf War etc. Over all these years since WWII America has shifted toward the side of "Lets work this out" as apposed to "This is the right thing to do". Now we are truly faced with a mess and once again the "Lets give peace a chance" crowd is at it again. They are appearing more and more often on TV and attempting to influence action. Well I think it is time for "Lets Give War a Chance". I believe that these people and many of the people around the world think we have gotten soft. That we lack the backbone to do the right thing. Well I hope and pray that we will do what needs to be done to rid the world of this small group of KILLERS. For if what they are doing is going to get them into heaven (or whatever they call it) then please reserve a place anwhere but there for me. God Bless America and may we have the backbone that that Great Generation of the 1940's had. Also anyone who thinks the USA is at fault PLEASE LEAVE THE COUNTRY I have no need for you or your kind.
[ edited by ILOVETHEUSA on Oct 6, 2001 06:35 AM ]
[ edited by ILOVETHEUSA on Oct 6, 2001 06:37 AM ]
posted on October 6, 2001 06:44:48 AM new
You are correct, gravid, the TERM does not exist. However the concept it clearly implied throughout the sctiptures. This says it better than I.
http://answering-islam.org.uk/Trinity/beckwith.html
And thank you for prompting me to search for it because it's off this page:
http://answering-islam.org.uk/
I look forward to reading much more at this site. (Answering Islam, a Christian Muslim Dialogue).
posted on October 7, 2001 12:05:14 PM new
jt - Had to think awhile whether I should even bother answering but here is one last
statement as brief as I can make it.
The idea that the central basic doctrine of your religion and your view of the nature of
God is not spelled out explicitly in the inspired writings of the Bible and was only
discovered by the intellectual brilliance of theologians who applied logic in the same
manner that science does astonishes me.
All the scriptures where God expounds on his qualities and nature and he never made a
clear statement of his multiple nature so that you had to deduce it, paint a picture of a God who is a
very poor communicator. Perhaps that is not hard to believe if you already look at God
as a being suffering from a multiple personality disorder.
posted on October 7, 2001 03:03:01 PM new
I have spent some time reading articles, explaining why muslim extremists/fundamentalists want to destroy the U.S. and why millions of muslim "moderates" support these extremists.
We have extremeists in the U.S. in favor of swift nuclear strikes against Iran, Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, etc.
These so called "moderate" muslims should thank their god that americans are compassionate and do not support extemists.
posted on October 7, 2001 03:07:19 PM new
Actually, the doctrine of the Trinity is very simple and easy to understand. From the Athanasian Creed (one of the four authoritative Creeds of the Catholic Church, and accepted as authoritative by the Anglican Church and some Protestant Churches):
This is what the catholic faith teaches: we worship one God in the Trinity and the Trinity in unity.
Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the substance.
For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, another of the Holy Spirit.
But the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit have one divinity, equal glory, and coeternal majesty.
What the Father is, the Son is, and the Holy Spirit is.
The Father is uncreated, the Son is uncreated, and the Holy Spirit is uncreated.
The Father is boundless, the Son is boundless, and the Holy Spirit is boundless.
The Father is eternal, the Son is eternal, and the Holy Spirit is eternal.
Nevertheless, there are not three eternal beings, but one eternal being.
So there are not three uncreated beings, nor three boundless beings, but one uncreated being and one boundless being.
Likewise, the Father is omnipotent, the Son is omnipotent, the Holy Spirit is omnipotent.
Yet there are not three omnipotent beings, but one omnipotent being.
Thus the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God.
However, there are not three gods, but one God.
The Father is Lord, the Son is Lord, and the Holy Spirit is Lord.
However, there as not three lords, but one Lord.
For as we are obliged by Christian truth to acknowledge every Person singly to be God and Lord, so too are we forbidden by the Catholic religion to say that there are three Gods or Lords.
The Father was not made, nor created, nor generated by anyone.
The Son is not made, nor created, but begotten by the Father alone.
The Holy Spirit is not made, nor created, nor generated, but proceeds from the Father and the Son.
There is, then, one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three sons; one Holy Spirit, not three holy spirits.
In this Trinity, there is nothing before or after, nothing greater or less. The entire three Persons are coeternal and coequal with one another.
So that in all things, as is has been said above, the Unity is to be worshipped in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity.
He, therefore, who wishes to be saved, must believe thus about the Trinity.
To summarize, Gravid, the doctrine of the Trinity really doesn't say anything about worshiping three different gods. [Well, actually it does say that, over and over again, but every time it says it, it immediately says that it didn't really mean what it just said. Which means it doesn't count. Except for the parts that do count, of course. And remember, every word in the creed is aboslutely true and accurate, except for those that aren't or which mean something other than what they actually say, keeping in mind that even those statements which seem to contradict previous statements are also true and accurate statements.]
To summarize the summary, the Trinity is comprised of three separate, dictinct individuals, who are neither separate nor distinct. Nor individuals, for that matter.
To summarize the summary of the summary, it's a divine mystery, so stop asking so many darn questions!
Barry
---
The opinions expressed above are for comparison purposes only. Your mileage may vary....
[ edited by godzillatemple on Oct 7, 2001 03:09 PM ]
posted on October 7, 2001 03:35:51 PM new
Thanks for that Barry. That is my belief though I had not read what you quoted.
I was thinking, doesn't the entire Muslim world view America as the "Christian world"?
And perhaps they have no concept of the existance of the diversity of religion here?
They have no concept of the separation of church and state? Therefore they view any action of our government such as military force as religiously motivated and controlled by Christians? Therefore doesn't that make all this in their eyes only another attack of the evils of Christianity?
Just wondered if that would be an accurate assumption.
posted on October 7, 2001 04:04:53 PM new
What a bunch of Theological doublespeak. There is three persons, yet there is not three persons but one person.
Why not just say that God is a government consiting of 3 co-equal individuals? They share some kind of "devine nature" what ever the heck that means.
It can't be understood or explained because it is just a figment of men's imaginations.
It was not taught by Christ or the apostles. They didn't seem to have any knowlege of it.
This arguement is really old and you don't need to rehash it with me. If you choose to believe it, that's your choice. If you wish to believe that the people that don't believe it are heretics, that's your business. As long as you don't do what the early church did and burn them.
[ edited by outoftheblue on Oct 7, 2001 04:06 PM ]
posted on October 7, 2001 04:25:16 PM newoutoftheblue: No, no, you're missing the point. It only LOOKS like doublespeak. In reality, it's perfectly clear. Except for the parts that aren't, but we don't count those, except when we do, which is all the time, since they really are clear even though they aren't.
It makes perfect sense to me. Of course, it helps being a lawyer....
Barry
---
The opinions expressed above are for comparison purposes only. Your mileage may vary....
posted on October 7, 2001 04:42:35 PM new
Hinduism has the same concept, roughly. They call it "The Universal Form," all those "different" gods and goddesses are really manifestations of the same entity.
posted on October 7, 2001 04:52:29 PM new
God is Jesus as He (Jesus) created the world (see John 1:1). Jesus is God in human form though in human for He was both limited and not limited (he,he) or self limited. The Spirit is the voice of God and also the spirit of Jesus. Amazingly It descended from God the Father to Jesus the Son at His baptism then later swept through the people of the early church. It appeared as flaming tounges. Amazingly It can also inhabit human hearts.
There aren't three, there is One, that One is so amazing that it can be This and That at the same time, and can be here, there and everywhere all the time for all eternity.
Listen to "The Creator Beyond Time and Space". Just select Chuck Missler from the pull down tab here: http://firefighters.org/html/library.cfm or order it on cassette or CD free on the site.
Better than any man made sci-fi. Missler is awesome! Get all his stuff!
~Wow! I see that he speaks on Islam. Didn't know that. Will listen!
[ edited by jt on Oct 7, 2001 04:56 PM ]
posted on October 7, 2001 04:53:37 PM new
Hey Barry
I'm not sure if you're are just kidding or serious, but I find your posts very fun to read none the less.
I have a very logical mind and can't stand contradicting doctorine. The trinity is called a "devine mystery" for a reason.
I won't even go into "proof texts" because discussions of that nature go nowhere.
My beliefs are pretty simple. "There is but one God, the Father...and one Lord Jesus Christ". No mention of the holy spirit or Trinity here. Jesus was the "only begotten son" of God. Jesus is not co-equal. He never claimed to be. He even admitted that his Father was God and was greater than he was. I could go on but I don't want to put everyone to sleep.
posted on October 7, 2001 05:12:10 PM newoutoftheblue: Yes, I am most definitely kidding. Which is to say that I am totally serious. Seriously kidding and jokingly serious, two in one and one in two. The first sentiment is one of kidding, and the second is one of seriousness. However, there is but one sentiment involved, not two. The first sentiment is of kidding and the second is also of kidding, yet there are not two sentiments of kidding, but one sentiment of kidding. The first sentiment is also one of seriousness, and the second sentiment is also one of seriousness, yet there are not two sentiments of seriousness, but one sentiment of seriousness. There is, then, one sentiment of kidding, not two sentiments of kidding; one sentiment of seriousness, not two sentiments of seriousness.
Are we clear on this? I'd be happy to go over it again of you like....
Barry
---
The opinions expressed above are for comparison purposes only. Your mileage may vary....
posted on October 7, 2001 05:38:00 PM new
Missler says that Islam did not originate with Mohammed at all. The first reference to Islam in in Genesis 12 when God called Abraham out of the Ur of the Chaledans. Ur worshipped a moon god. They possessed a black meteorite which they worshipped as a god along with 360 other moon related gods. The Assyrian name for the moon god was AL Elah (sp?) which became shortened to Allah. The crescent moon still adorns the Muslim mosque. The name of the city of Jerico means "House of the Moon God". The God of Islam is not the God of Abraham but the moon god Al Elah.
posted on October 7, 2001 05:42:01 PM new
Terri, the local Canaanite gods of 4000 years ago had names like "El" and "El Elyon", all names that the Bible calls God.
While I reject the assertion that my religion was founded through the gradual blending of various pagan gods into one, that's certainly not how many outsiders of my religion view it.
posted on October 7, 2001 05:46:37 PM new
My God is your God James.
BTW, Hi! Have missed you.
New stuff to me, but you know me, digging.
Missler mentioned in his commentary that you were going to smash me over that one, LOL. You should listen to it (quality is bad) and we could talk about it sometimes. It's the first Missler section on Allah.
Later, Jim says the downstairs is a pig sty and I have slept all day.
posted on October 7, 2001 05:53:19 PM new
No, Zazzie. It is just the condition of man in case you hadn't noticed.
At least there are cracks in the armour. One day in the future, maybe voices on the other side will be singing Give Peace a Chance too and we'll have a basis for achieving that.
[ edited by jamesoblivion on Oct 7, 2001 05:55 PM ]
posted on October 7, 2001 05:56:24 PM new
No, don't worry, I've noticed. This generation it is the Islamic Extremeists, a couple of generations ago it was German Christian Extremists---and it just goes on and on into the past--all with God's name on their lips.
I don't think I want to know what the next one will be
posted on October 7, 2001 05:58:56 PM new
Yes, Zazzie, and sometimes it's with charming quotes from Little Red Books or 19th century political essays on the lips.
