posted on October 5, 2001 10:52:44 PM
WHY do people say things like:
"GASP - DON'T CREATE A PANIC" and "LOCK THIS THREAD SO IT DOESN'T UPSET ANYONE"!
This makes NO sense to me. If anyone is panicking, which I don't see happening, I would think they have damn good reason to panic since we were just attacked by terrorists, since the news talks for hours and says NOTHING, and we are being fed a bunch of LIES. Of course many of us want to TALK about it! 1. Talking about it, speculating, etc, is not "panicking", and 2. Everyone has the right to feel or talk about whatever they damn well please. Bad enough we are kept in the dark by our own government - YES I understand they can't tell us EVERYTHING about their possible plans to go after these terrorist lunatics, etc. But let's get real, every time you hear a crumb of a news report, it mysteriously dissapears, gets retracted, etc etc. I for one don't feel panic at ALL - I was all over the city the very next day, watching the smoke that used the be the WTC, waiting outside of Saint Vincents Hospital to give blood that was never needed for the survivors we never had. What I feel is ANGER at the terrorists, and ANGER at those who expect us to "shut up" and be "controlled." Example: Does anyone remember then night the Empire State Building was evacuated because of a "bomb threat" (I believe it was the night after the initial attack) and then we were all told it was false? Guess what, it was REAL, not false, talk to some NYC cops, there WAS a bomb, and that wasn't the only one, and that's not the only example. You won't hear these things on the "CBS Snooze". I'm personally sick of being treated like an ignorant idiot who "can't handle" the news. This does not "protect" us in any way, it just keeps us in the dark. "GASP - HUSH EVERYTHING UP"!! And now I see some AW posters trying to do the same thing! Why?? If anyone is SO fragile they can't handle hearing it, then DON'T read it and DON'T look at it. This is a MESSAGE board, it is meant for COMMUNICATING. Some of us WANT information and we WANT to talk about it. For those of you who want to go stick your heads in the sand, go for it, but it won't change this: I see dead people... they're everywhere. And I wanna talk about it.
posted on October 5, 2001 11:17:36 PM
Well, it's pretty much the truth. The consistently conflicting messages that we keep getting from Washington and the attempts to alter or rewrite events and advice is approaching the absurd.
posted on October 5, 2001 11:26:02 PM
I agree. Talking is always good. Speculating is fine as long as you just get up and walk away when it begins to become stress. I can do that.
Since earlier this evening I was involved in a little back-and-forth regarding both the anthrax thread and the bad news thread, I'd appreciate it you could explain whether there was any implied criticism of me in your post. I hope not, because that would mean there's been some misinterpretation of what I wrote earlier.
posted on October 5, 2001 11:40:03 PM
Spazzie
Honestly, I can't even remember some names in particular, it was more of an attitude in general (from some posters - and only very few). I am NOT going back to take names and report it here. It won't affect what I have already said, and besides, I'm too freakin lazy.
posted on October 5, 2001 11:48:45 PMDoes anyone remember then night the Empire State Building was evacuated because of a "bomb threat" (I believe it was the night after the initial attack) and then we were all told it was false? Guess what, it was REAL, not false, talk to some NYC cops, there WAS a bomb, and that wasn't the only one, and that's not the only example. You won't hear these things on the "CBS Snooze".
Maybe you'll consider me naive, but I do put a lot of faith in the news services in the US. Yes, they do report rumors, all of them. Yes, they get the story wrong sometimes but they usually seem to keep digging at stories till the true does comes out.
Conspiracies and coverups are a part of Americas culture it seems. A conspiracy seems to have a 'fact until proven wrong' air about it, and the catch-22 part is any proof against the conspiracy is part of a coverup.
I personally don't believe there was a bomb in the empire state building. I believe I remember hearing that NYC had 90 bomb scares in one day after the WTC disaster.
The news services have reported about crop dusters being examined, they've reported about a hazardous material licenses, they've reported about missing tanker trucks, antrax, etc.. I don't understand a pattern of the news services being allowed to report so many things and then being required to report a 'hoax' that was fact.
Los Angeles had a air raid and total panic after Pearl Harbor. For years some citizens were certain that the planes they heard flying overhead were Japanese, and nothing was going to convince them otherwise.
posted on October 6, 2001 12:18:37 AMThe news services have reported about crop dusters being examined, they've reported about a hazardous material licenses
From what I've seen out here, that's spot-on reporting...
I haven't heard a crop duster overhead since 911 (and cotton defoliation has been going on for over two weeks now here) and some pesticide applicators have received interesting visits...
For that matter, other than a couple of local pilots doing some aerobatics, lately I haven't even seen a general aviation plane or helicopter in the sky and there's usually folks out here everyday playing around.
From the moment that video camera panned up to catch a very low-flying 767, I knew there was more going on than we would ever know. Given our nature, when we don't know about something we speculate and hypothesize. I can't begin to imagine what is was like for those of us close to the tradgedies or for those who, in an instant, lost their loved ones.
Maybe this is one of the highest and best uses of the internet, bonding us into a world community of souls....
Before I could even tear myself away from the television, my friends in Ukraine were sending their condolences and support over ICQ......and forums which normally talked about subjects as diverse as auctions and gems and vintage cars all turned to one subject and focussed on the desperate struggle to make sense out of the senseless act we all witnessed...
In my opinion, it is a struggle which will go on for quite some time....and talking about it will help us find our way through the long dark tunnel of grief and anger....
posted on October 6, 2001 12:21:14 AM
Uaru - I personally don't believe there was a bomb in the empire state building. I believe I remember hearing that NYC had 90 bomb scares in one day after the WTC disaster.
Yes we probably had 90 bomb scares. What leads you to believe they were ALL false? My information comes right from a NYC cop, not that cops don't lie either. But why would you find him less credible than the crap you're hearing on tv?
Maybe you'll consider me naive
No offense, but yes I do find it naive (or let's say wishful thinking) to believe there have been NO other incidents, just because they are not being reported to you. So you think the attacks that DID get carried through successfully were the ONLY ones planned? Hmmm amazing - 100% accuracy!? And NOTHING else has been tried since? Uuhhh I DOUBT it. Sounds completely unrealistic to me. AS IF the media and U.S. government don't lie or twist things or cover things up. Uhhh if you really believe this, I have some land in downtown Manhattan I'll sell ya real cheap. There used to be a couple buildings on it but now it's empty to do whatever you please.
I don't understand a pattern of the news services being allowed to report so many things and then being required to report a 'hoax' that was fact.
I don't understand why facts are being reported as "hoaxes" either. But apparantly they are counting on everyone to just be a bunch of sheep and go along with everything. Ya know, "Let's not create a panic" - which translates into "Holy sh!t are we in deep trouble - don't tell anyone how much we are panicking!!!"
Rocker
[ edited by nycrocker on Oct 6, 2001 12:30 AM ]
posted on October 6, 2001 12:34:32 AM
A lot of those conspiracy theories involving government in the past have been proven to be true, only then they are no longer called conspiracy theories and are a part of history. I could name a considerable number in my own lifetime. Speculation and questioning is a fine exercise for the mind, and if possibilities don't pan out, then there is no real harm done. As nycrocker points out, if others' views bother one greatly, then don't read or skip over them. Seems simple to me. Or as Terri suggests, if certain subjects bother one, then perhaps it would be good to take a break. Many do that from time to time.
posted on October 6, 2001 12:47:22 AMA lot of those conspiracy theories involving government in the past have been proven to be true, only then they are no longer called conspiracy theories and are a part of history. I could name a considerable number in my own lifetime.
Okay, name them. If they are in the history books then we'll agree that they are fact now and no longer a conspiracy theory. Honestly the only one I can come up with is Watergate.
Big difference between what is in the history books and what you can find on the web or some conspiracy of the month club book.
From the moment that video camera panned up to catch a very low-flying 767, I knew there was more going on than we would ever know.
I feel exactly the same way.
when we don't know about something we speculate and hypothesize
Exactly. So the less we are told, the more we are left to guess, speculate, hypothesize, which sometimes can even CREATE the very panic we are "supposedly" being "protected" from. Yeah I feel real "protected". Sigh. If only we knew where to find the truth. HIGHLY unlikely, not on this planet, not in this lifetime.
But I agree we need to talk about it. Vent. Whatever. Why do you think they are offering so much free counseling here in NYC right now? It has to be talked out. Our minds are not wired to handle this kind of overload. Are other cities offering counseling too? I know the rest of the country is suffering from Post Traumatic Stress Disorder symptoms too, not just NYC. And all the counselors (myself included) are saying you HAVE to talk about this. Get it out. I have friends who were down there, they are now on meds, in counseling, writing in journals, talking to me and to their other friends, trying everything to heal from the things they saw and went through. I spoke to one of them only a couple hours after the attack, I called him first cos I knew he worked at J&R Music World on Park Row (right near WTC). Thank god I found him at home. But he HAD been at work when the planes hit. He was one of the people running up the street trying to escape the smoke and debris. He saw the people jumping and burning. He spent the next two days in bed throwing up. There is more but I will leave it at this for now.
[ edited by nycrocker on Oct 6, 2001 01:00 AM ]
posted on October 6, 2001 12:57:24 AM
You remember Iran-contra; you remember Monica Lewinsky. Those are two of the most recent that were labelled in the same way that you are using the term conspiracy, and the initial reaction was always that they aren't true. But you have the right to choose to believe whatever you wish. I don't come here to try to make anyone believe anything.
posted on October 6, 2001 01:02:12 AMYou remember Iran-contra; you remember Monica Lewinsky. Those are two of the most recent that were labelled in the same way that you are using the term conspiracy, and the initial reaction was always that they aren't true.
What was the role of the press in those stories, did they ever hinder the truth being exposed or did they infact cause the truth to be exposed?
posted on October 6, 2001 01:11:59 AM
Well, I haven't addressed the press at all; but of course, their investigative reporting brought most of the information to light. However, those were not times like the present, when the press has openly agreed not to publish information or has accepted the fact that government will withhold information. And in fact we don't know exactly what the press has agreed to do in specific instances.
posted on October 6, 2001 01:19:05 AMHowever, those were not times like the present, when the press has openly agreed not to publish information or has accepted the fact that government will withhold information. And in fact we don't know exactly what the press has agreed to do in specific instances.
So the press is free to report about Anthrax, Crop Dusters, Missing tankers trucks, Hazardous Material licenses, but not other items?
Seems reasonable to me that if the government was controlling the press to the degree some imagine those stories wouldn't be carried over the national wires.
posted on October 6, 2001 01:21:49 AM
Antiquary - Right on. Very good examples.
I can give you another example that works in exactly the same way to lie to the public. Every year we have a Gay Pride March in NYC - this is a march to celebrate the anniversary of the Stonewall rebellion. (Most other big cities have this march too.) Lesbian, Gay, Bi and Trans people had been getting badly beaten, jailed, etc by the cops for years and years. But finally in 1969 at the Stonewall bar in Greenich Village, the community finally fought back which was the beginning of fighting for rights. The Pride March celebrates that date. Okay so if you see NYC's Pride March, you will see mega-thousands and thousands of people (I wish I could tell you how many but I am not good with numbers). There were times I was there and then LATER watched it on the news, and it was AMAZING to us, how the news crews would always depict this march to look like there was only a little handful of people there! They got their camera shots either at the end of the parade, or at a time when there was a break for traffic to get through... but inevitably the news would report THOUSANDS less than the number that was really there, and would only show a small group, and ALWAYS pick the "weirdest" looking people, the ones they knew middle America would FREAK OUT over. The media purposely showed it in the WORST possible light with the SMALLEST number of people. It was completely manipulated for the news coverage. THAT'S how these lies are generated and perpetuated. A march to fight for equal civil rights for thousands and thousands of people became nothing but a tiny group of "freaks" at the hands of the media.
I imagine most any Vietnam vet would understand what your friend (from J&R) is going through.
Likely, my departed father who served in the 8th Army in Italy in WW2 would as well...
Alas, I probably never will....
I will, however, make my best effort to listen and encourage those around me who've been traumatized by the events or personal loss to share their thoughts and feelings.
I've had a nagging suspicion for many years that many of the things which my father buried from the war came back to eat him up, healthwise, in his later years.....I don't recall him talking about it (the war) once....I only learned about the details of his service later, after his death, from reading his correspondance and perusing the items he had kept locked away....a sort of scrapbook of the war....
If I'm right, that fate is one I would wish upon no one...
Evolution can be a painful process, and it would seem we're getting more than our fair share just now......ultimately, I think we'll see a time when your ideals of disclosure and honesty will prevail........
Like Charles Lindbergh once said, it has to be tried and tried and tried again until we get it right....
posted on October 6, 2001 01:30:27 AM
I am not in NY so I did not experience this tragedy first hand. But otherwise I don't understand panic.
I read Revelations and it lays out the course of events of the future for all to see. There is no surprise. We talk about it in our household. My daughter (age 12) is only just now reading on her own but she knows the future is not a bed of roses. She can tell you "there will be wars and rumors of wars, and earthquakes and famine, and an antichrist will rise and Christians will one day be beheaded". And then she will go out to play in peace and in trust that God is with her.
I teach her this:
You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes. Matthew 24: 6-7
Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:34-35
The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.
He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.
He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me. Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over. Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.
Psalm 23
And she is content with that. I fear that death will be a very unpleasant experience, and that is all. My tiny one has not yet found her peace. This reminds me to pray for her.
posted on October 6, 2001 01:32:02 AM
Well, that's just it, we don't why the government would chose to release some information and not other information. For instance, yesterday I was reading the BBC website which reported Tony Blair's release to the British public of the evidence against bin Laden. Since it hasn't been released here, I thought that odd. And there wasn't anything revealed which could possibly threaten national security nor reveal sources. If you saw Ari Fleischer's press conference, the American press was really pissed. Fleischer of course dodged most questions, as is his habit, but had to admit that the release of that information didn't really compromise anything. That's one of the most recent of many incidents,but a number of others, the spy plane shot down in Afghanistan, for instance, which are coming from sources but the press here has to wait to report until it gets clearance. It's nonsensical and often confusing.
posted on October 6, 2001 01:48:43 AMthe spy plane shot down in Afghanistan, for instance, which are coming from sources but the press here has to wait to report until it gets clearance. It's nonsensical and often confusing.
I believe the US press reported that Afghanistan 'claimed' to have shot down a reconnaissance plane as soon as any of the other services reported it. The Pentagon didn't comment on it for some time, and when they did they only said they lost a reconnaissance plane. Some of those drone planes fly at 65,000 ft and would be out of range of the Afghani ability to down. What sort of release would you have liked the Pentagon to have given?
Clarification is needed here. Are we talking about the press being part of the misinformation or the government not issuing press releases? I'll admit the government doesn't release all the information, and maybe for good reason at times. What I thought this was about was the press being involved in cover ups, manipulation, squashing stories, and misinformation.
posted on October 6, 2001 01:55:44 AM
rocker - have you ever been to the San Francisco Pride Parade? It's the greatest! The news coverage is wonderful, and the whole parade is televised, with a couple of rebroadcasts.
People come from all over the world for Pride Week and the Parade. They're always interviewed, and say they have never seen anything like it. It's taken years for it to become what it is, with people from all walks of life joining in and working hard to pull it together.
The dykes on bikes always lead the parade, and this year there were so many mortorcycles it went for blocks. I think the parade went for over four hours. You should try to come one year. I know you would really enjoy it.
posted on October 6, 2001 01:57:16 AM
No, I believe that it was a full day before the American press released the story. Then a couple of days before it was confirmed to have been our plane.
I haven't made any accusations that the press is intentionally and independently distorting the news, though I think the news channels are doing a poor job of covering events.
posted on October 6, 2001 03:48:24 AM
More than the news reports I am concerned with the reports of the workers being told after the first plane hit to go back to work and ignore it because all was well - and then to not evacuate after the second plane hit.
They had people come all the way down from near the 100th floor to be told by the firemen to stop at the 14th floor and clear the stairways. Shows what following the herd like a good little sheep will get you.
posted on October 6, 2001 04:24:44 AM
I've skipped most of the posts in this thread because I need to get ready for work, but I have a couple of comments.
You know what I know? Many people died...and I went to Calling Hours last night for one of them. He died at the Pentagon. I saw the pain in his elderly mothers eyes, his siblings, and his 22 year old son. I saw a Flag draped coffin, his Award of Merit, and his Purple Heart, both awarded to him posthumously.
I thought to myself as I stood in that funeral home about the 7000+ other families that will be going through the exact same thing. And I wept.
posted on October 6, 2001 05:53:16 AM
This morning (about 8:00 EST) on NPR they had coverage of the atomic bombs/radioactivity story about St. George Utah from years ago. If you are in the other times zones you might check it out.
Couple things bought out...
The atomic bombs were set to go off in certain weather conditions. Radioactivity drifting into Los Angles (I think they said) would be detected faster, and cause more problems then having wind drift headed toward the east and St. Georges Utah.
When it did drift toward the east coast Eastern Kodak complained their film was getting ruined. The government after that let Kodak know when they were testing, but there was no warning to the American people.
I didn't hear the first of this program, but I hope it will be on the website for listening later today or tomorrow.
Edited to add: When milk was found to have unacceptable levels of radioactive particles in St. George's supply, the acceptable level was raised.
posted on October 6, 2001 06:31:34 AM
I've been confused also about the tendency on some of these threads to worry about panic.
I for one have sensed no panic , a lot of concern but not really any panic.
We want to be informed because for once it we can see how the news really does concern us.
Our government does at times like to cover up less than favorable things from us.(anyone who has been in the military has probably seen that at least once up close) They think they are doing it for are own good. I applaud thier intentions but I think we can handle the truth a lot better than the rumors and conspiracy theories this kind of tactic usually gives birth to.
Panic was what you saw in the face of those running from the WTC that day as it collapsed.
Now what you see is concern and the need to discuss the future, some fearfully true, but we all need to reach out and to one another right now.We need to share our fears and our sorrow like we never did before.
I for one have never felt less alone in my life.
posted on October 6, 2001 07:24:32 AM
With 7,000 people killed and threats of even more terrorism planned, it takes an absolute fool to call for quiet and serenity.
We can't depend on conflicting reports from the press or political sources. So, it helps to be able to talk and consider all possibilities.
Just yesterday we were assured that the military was being vaccinated aganist anthrax. Today, an new story emerges.... "But although the laboratory is working frantically to meet government standards so it can begin producing the vaccine, it has failed to do so. As a result, the government program aimed at vaccinating all American soldiers against anthrax is at a standstill."
Just last week, we were encouraged to go to Disney Land...while at the same time receving an ominous message from Rumsfeld that Generals were being given permission to shoot planes out of the air.
Now, according to today's Washington Post, the "limited strikes" have escalated to thoughts of Nuclear attacks, "The Sept. 11 terrorist attacks on Washington and New York have invigorated national security strategists inside and outside the government who favor using nuclear arms to deter and respond to chemical or biological attacks."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A8353-2001Oct4.html
If you are unable to face bad news, go out and smell the roses!
I needed that since I'm probably about to be flamed 
and I don't care.
Rocker 
He spent the next two days in bed throwing up. There is more but I will leave it at this for now.