I must admit that I was TOTALLY taken aback by the response that this site received. I did NOT post it in any way to start a disagreement. I had no idea that would happen. So many people were taken with "behind the veil" which I did not see btw, and there were similar articles here. There wear verses from the Koran, which I have not been exposed to. So I admit my ignorance of their teachings aside from the most surface explaination.
I read it. Now what in particular was hateful about it?
I am busy. I don't want to disagree. I just want to understand the problem as you see it. I just want to hear your view. I admit that I am at a loss.
Break it apart, explain it to me. I will read. I will not argue but only listen.
As a note, I posted the same thread on a Christian board where there are currently 72 people logged in. It got one response. I would like to post that one response here but I don't think that is allowed. Basically it said that even reading the site made the person uneasy because of the scriptures from the Koran there (I don't feel that way), but thank you for the link.
Perhaps that will help you understand my confusion.
posted on October 6, 2001 02:08:46 PM
Gads---there is so many sentences in that article that set off little piffle alarms in my brain.
to all muslims: "We need to know why you believe that you should not be held accountable for these actions along with the others who perished in the blaze."
---all Muslims are to blame for the attack and are accountable for it???
Please proceed with caution in this thread. It has the potential to become yet another discussion we will have to stop. I don't want to do that, so I am asking you all to be particularly sensitive in your replies.
posted on October 6, 2001 02:24:40 PM
I agree zazzie. I think each person should be given individual fair chance in life.
I also noticed that each article at that site is by a different author. I was not endorsing each and every comment by each and every author any more than a recommendation for AW would indicate that I agree with each and every comment by each and every author here. Individual judgment must be used. I was saying that I found the site overall interesting and informative.
Here is a snippet from the above link, which points out -- rather tidily, too -- why not only the author of the article jt posted but the vast majority of Westerners are so... "uneasy" in their understanding of Islam/The Koran:
"Western Koranic scholarship has traditionally taken place in the context of an openly declared hostility between Christianity and Islam. (Indeed, the broad movement in the West over the past two centuries to "explain" the East, often referred to as Orientalism, has in recent years come under fire... )"
posted on October 6, 2001 02:45:20 PM
another quote from article--and yes it is out of context
"The truth is that Islam is a man-made religion, full of hatred and venom and the followers of this horrible cult are being led away from God and salvation at an astonishing pace."
That sure is going to start a Christain-Muslim dialog --as the site professes
posted on October 6, 2001 02:53:27 PM
If I were Moslem, yes the assumptions present there would probably offend me.
Just as it would offend me if someone assumed that I agree with the historical actions of Christendom - who have plenty of blood on their hands also. Or if someone assumed I am in agreement with the current crop of narrow minded fanatics of mant flavors who call themselves Christian.
That being said you have to look at the actions of any group more than what they say.
While there are plenty of people who call themselves Christian engaging in violent behavior and oppressing others around the globe they have a small advantage in that it is usually in spite of their teachings that they engage in that behavior. While the followers of Allah seem to engage in that behavior not in spite of their religious instruction but because of it.
It is a slight advantage of motive, and not nearly the difference in actions it should be.
Point me to an article on that site that you found informative enough to bring it to our attention.
If possible, I would prefer one that is point/counterpoint between a Christian and a Muslim.
Frankly, if you and your 72 fellow Christians could not see the bigotry in that write-up, nothing I say will enlighten your point of view.
Personally, I don't think there is that much difference between Christianity, Judaism and Islam.
BTW, "Behind the Veil" and the site you posted have absolutely nothing in common. The focus of the former was on the oppression of women under the Taliban, and a very brave underground group of women, Rawa.
posted on October 6, 2001 03:00:58 PMThe truth is that Islam is a man-made religion, full of hatred and venom and the followers of this horrible cult are being led away from God and salvation at an astonishing pace.
leaps off the page to burn my eyeballs. Not an objective view, IMO, to call a worldwide religion a horrible cult. One sided views are not dialogue. You have the right to an informed opinion -Harlan Ellison
posted on October 6, 2001 03:10:28 PM
No matter how innocent you care to pretend to be, no matter how this "author" justifies his rationale by carefully twisted examples, this is hate talk; a hate mongering, hateful call to attack any and all people of Islamic faith and should be seen as clearly beyond what is allowable here.
"I do not need any more evidence to indict the faith of Islam as culpable in this act. President Bush announced that we would prosecute this war on terrorism against the terrorists and make no distinction between them and the nation states that harbor and protect them. But what about the religious infrastructure that has created the terrorists by teaching them to hate and kill anything that does not fit their mold? Should this be immune from attack because it calls itself a religion? If Adolph Hitler called Nazism a religion, would we be speaking German today? Clearly this is at the root of the problem and needs to be addressed unless we intend to live in a world envisioned by the leaders of the Taliban regime".
posted on October 6, 2001 03:12:31 PM
Isn't much of this what we call stereotyping?
There are hundreds of differences in views among Christians and a great number do not accept everything in the Bible as literal. Yet all Muslims must believe pretty much the same and none of the Koran can be interpreted by them metaphorically or allegorically. Bull.
posted on October 6, 2001 05:49:34 PM
Stereotyping at its ugliest.
Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world, partly because it is so popular with those who despise America and all it stands for. The very passages you read above and many more like it are being taught to little children throughout the world. This ‘religious training’ is virtually guaranteeing that the next generation of terrorists is being groomed for violence and hatred while America digs out from the rubble of the last attacks.
Yesterday's "Oprah" show was entitled "Islam 101." It was very interesting for those who are willing to be open regarding other religions.
If I understood right, there are as many interpretations of the Koran as there are of the Bible.
There are fanatics in Islam just as there are fanatics in Christianity.
------
I have a new favorite quote:
"All bigots will be reincarnated as gay, homeless people of color."
I might add to the quote: "and practice a religion other than Christianity."
------
That quote is not referring to anyone on this board.
posted on October 6, 2001 06:24:41 PMOf the Unbelievers: "seize them and slay them wherever you find them: and in any case take no friends or helpers from their ranks."
How odd! So different, yet such similar results..
"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching everything that I have commanded you....
So similar, because what the Qu'ran supposedly teaches is exactly what Christians have done...Remember the Aztec? The Mayans? And more recently, the various Amazon Tribes, among others, destroyed in the name of the Only G-d and his son Jesus?
I would hope that your group of 72 occasionally lights a candle in memory of these lost tribes...and civilizations.
"But none of these atrocities are in harmony with the teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ, nor are they grounded in any of the writings or principles of the New Testament." and continues with "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment"..This was not Jesus's original thought.
Do you know where the above paragraph comes from? Jesus quoted
the TORAH, the original Scriptures.
Don't forget that Jesus was a RABBI, a TEACHER, therefore his teachings were based on what he was taught AS A CHILD, in the TEMPLE.
posted on October 6, 2001 07:35:53 PM
Yes sadly there are bigots towards Muslims, Jews and Christians. I've seen all three on AW. They tend to show up when they think the rhetoric is favorabe for their digs.
posted on October 6, 2001 07:56:37 PMFemme...I wish I had seen that show...
Learning about others, and accepting that we all have flaws, should be a course in many a classroom: "Tolerance 101"
Strange: the other day I found a movie at my Library, of all places, called "The Message", produced by an Arabic film maker, who made it both in Arabic and in English, using two different casts of actors, of course, because he explained that Arabic does not lend itself well to "dubbing". Anyway, the English version had Anthony Quinn (spelling?) playing the part of Hamsa, and they never showed Mohamed, for it is against Islam to represent G-d or his Messengers.
A wonderful movie, showing the very beginning of Islam, when Mohamed became the voice for G-d; Mohamed begun to write down what G-d was telling him, even though he (Mohamed) supposedly could neither read nor write.
And yes, it shows the movement spreading the word, and retaliating through war, when attacked, something which has been seen throughout the world over and over.
Too bad that terrorism is becoming synonymous with Islam!...
Christians, Muslims, Jews: ALL have blood on their hands.
posted on October 6, 2001 11:45:04 PM
I have been away and am WAY behind here on reading. Please bear with me.
Femme: Personally, I don't think there is that much difference between Christianity, Judaism and Islam.
I wondered if you read this post that I made at 12:39 am. http://www.auctionwatch.com/mesg/read.html?num=28&id=120814&thread=120380
Aside from those comments, I think there are MAJOR differences. There is also some common ground. Judiasm and Christianity have much more in common than either with Islam. I also think that Mormonism is to Christianity what Christianity is to Judiasm in a way, if that makes sense at all. Or, in other words, Jews view Christians as Christians view Mormons might be more clear. Islam is WAY out there somewhere else.
Snowy: this horrible cult are being led away from God and salvation at an astonishing pace.
Yes, these words seem rather harsh but toning them down would not change the meaning of the statment. What I have oft tried to explain to
non-Christians is that according to Christian belief, these people do not have salvation. Christians want EVERY person to have eternal salvation and believe that God loves them and wants them to spend eternity with Him. It is not the PEOPLE that this statement resents but the religion that according to Biblical teaching has denied these people eternal salvation. It is in love of these people's souls that Christians resent the teachings of Islam and desire their conversion. Now, I know the next flogging will be the "your-way, my-way, their-way is ok" concept but this defense is not in line with Biblical teachings of Jesus Christ. Christ said, "I am the way the truth and the life and no man cometh unto the Father but by Me." Revelations also predicts that there will eventually be a "one world religion". Most Christians believe that this religion will be founded on the the "your-way, my-way, their-way is ok" concept.
and a great number do not accept everything in the Bible as literal. Yet all Muslims must believe pretty much the same and none of the Koran can be interpreted by them metaphorically or allegorically.
This is a question that had already occured to me. Twisting of scripture is common in attacks on Christianity and I wondered if this were possibly so with Islam. By the open hostility toward Christianity that has already been pointed out, it APPEARS not so to any great extent. However, without a great depth of knowledge about the teachings of the Koran and their intreptations, one would not know. It is certainly a valid idea. Wish I had seen Oprah.
Shosh, I would make no excuse for the past ills of Christianity anymore than the ills of terrorist should be excused. The question is, as was pointed out, which is taught as sacred truth and which is blatently against the teaching. Men are all sinners no matter their belief structure.
loosecannon, I don't view this as a "debate" but simply an "educatonal exploration". I will treat it as such so long as that is the tone.
~Have to turn the page.
~oops. No page two. So those are my thoughts.
As an added note, I believe that people's views have to be looked at in light of their own belief system. I know SOME of your adherances (or lack of) but not all. That leaves me at a slight disadvantage because you all know mine clearly.
[ edited by jt on Oct 6, 2001 11:50 PM ]
[ edited by jt on Oct 7, 2001 09:34 AM ]
posted on October 7, 2001 06:07:51 AM
CNN has announced a special presentation about understanding Islam, tonight at 7:00 eastern. If anyone is interested in learning more, watching it would likely be accurate and informative. Certainly couldn't hurt. If you can't watch it then, I'm sure that it will be repeated several times.
posted on October 7, 2001 07:20:03 AM
Just heard a news report that bookstores have been selling out their copies of books about Islam, comparative religion, atlases, etc. I need to make a run to my bookstore to stock up this next week so I'll see if I can find something good. It's been over 30 years since I studied comparative religion and I've forgotten more than I remember. Also, current studies will probably discuss the fanatical groups more fully.
posted on October 7, 2001 09:01:04 AM
Thanks for the info, Antiquary. Have a great Sunday...
I am going to Berkeley, to that nice Arabic/Jewish food store, and see my Iranian friend. I took her flowers right after the terrible Sep 11 attack, and we both grieved and cried. This fine Lady is Muslim; just as millions of Muslims here and abroad, there is no way at all that she should be lumped into the same package as Terrorist, yet she still received threats and has lost a lot of business
posted on October 7, 2001 09:36:05 AM
Toke, I just editied the spelling because I just saw your post. You were not asking me to correct the spelling were you?
Femme, I was thinking about your question about why I elected to post the site. There is not one particular article that I can point you to because I did not base my decision on one particular article. I elected to post the site because in the recent past there seemed to be quite a few Christians here (they vanish at times it seems), the subject of Islam is one that all are interested in recently, and it was given from a Christian perspective. It answered some "comparative type" questions. The Koran is there as well as the Bible. It seemed a good site for someone who might be interested in it as a study topic, or might be usful for research in an ongoing study that someone was already engaged in. I believe that many (if not most) churches would be touching on this subject in group studies at this time.
I have been known to read similar sites on other religions, one being Jews for Jesus. I admit that sometimes the subjects get rather complex but I do make an attempt to learn something. For one, sites (& books) that originate from a Christian viewpoint tend to make it easier to approach because they only assume the knowledge base that I already possess and build upon that. Judiasm uses many terms for instance that I am not familiar with and I find that I need a constant interpreter. Jews For Jesus would explain any terms unused in the common Christian vocabulary. On the other hand, the wall site is a Jewish site and it is very easy to read because it is designed with non-Jewish visitors in mind. There are not many friendly Muslim sites geared toward the Christian knowledge base if you know what I mean. (Or at least I haven't found them.)
Wall site:
http://aish.com/wallcam/
Jews for Jesus:
http://www.jewsforjesus.org/
(I have also visited the "opposing" sites as well so no need to call their existance to my attention.)
Notice that both these sites have Jewish and non-Jewish areas on the site. If you can find an Islamic site with a button that says "for non-Muslims" then that is what I am looking for.
[ edited by jt on Oct 7, 2001 10:09 AM ]
posted on October 7, 2001 10:28:30 AM
From the Q'ran:
029.046
And argue not with the People of the Scripture unless it be in (a way) that is better, save with such of them as do wrong; and say: We believe in that which hath been revealed unto us and revealed unto you; our God and your God is One, and unto Him we surrender.
=============
"People of the Scritpture" are those who follow the other basic sacred texts of Islam, the Old and New Testaments -- Jews and Christians. Jesus is a prophet of Islam second only to Mohammed himself.
No. I initially thought you had mistakenly typed Mormon when you meant Muslim...then I read more carefully and realized you'd meant exactly what you said.
