posted on November 19, 2001 07:20:10 PM
Hey Antiquary! Completely unintentional!Do you use Netscape? I have just discovered that using Netscape I cannot access the page but using IE5 I can. How bizarre.
posted on November 19, 2001 07:27:01 PM
Just for you. This is what lurks under the posted URL..........
FACTORY'S TALIBAN BOSS HATED THE WEST
EXCLUSIVE: He disappeared 7 months ago with half his staff
From Gary Jones in Kabul
A deadly Taliban anthrax factory was found in Kabul by The Mirror yesterday.
The two-storey lab was used to create vaccines from highly dangerous wild bacteria. Its discovery fuels fears that Osama bin Laden's al-Qaeda terror group is behind the US anthrax alert.
A source who worked at the plant said: "There's no doubt the Taliban were planning chemical or biological warfare against the West. I believe anthrax may have been first on their list."
The factory, which was bombed by US B-52s, was headed by anti-West mullah Qari Abdullah. He and about half of his staff vanished seven months ago. They are now believed to be in the US and Europe.
On a tour of the plant The Mirror saw an incubator to develop the bacteria, hundreds of test tubes ready for samples and the word "anthrax" scribbled on a container.
Yesterday in Washington the FBI were urgently investigating a suspected anthrax letter sent to Democrat Senator Patrick Leahy. Four people have died from the bug.
The factory, discovered by The Mirror yesterday, was officially set up for the production of vaccines for cattle using wild anthrax bacteria. But we learned that the Taliban became extremely proficient in using the bug.
It is now feared that rogue Talibans linked to Osama bin Laden's al-Qaeda terror group could have developed anthrax spores into the form being used to terrify the US where four people have died from the bacteria.
A case containing hundreds of bottles of vacine samples. Picture: Andrew Stenning
Dr Abdul Quader Raoufi, 58, current vaccines chief at the Afghan factory, told us: "We'd rather have been running the labs on our own.
"But the mullahs were in charge of everything and we couldn't stop them learning about our activities. There was always a danger information could get into the wrong hands."
A source who worked at the factory added: "There's no doubt the Taliban were planning chemical or biological warfare against the West.
"I believe anthrax might have been first on their list."
We were alerted to the factory - the Institute of Veterinary Vaccine Production - by a highly-placed source in the Northern Alliance.
After being directed there by an official of the Ministry of Agriculture we were ushered through locked gates for a guided tour by Dr Raoufi. During US air strikes, 13 B-52 bombs landed all around the premises at Badram Bagh, outside Kabul, although none scored a direct hit.
It is not clear if the fighters deliberately targeted the lab. All the equipment needed to make vaccines was hidden away the day before the bombardment began.
Photographer Andy Stenning and I were shown every room. Glass was scattered throughout the building and doors blown off their hinges.
At the end of one corridor on the second floor we were led into a small office where our eyes were immediately drawn to the word "Anthrax", scribbled on a test-tube.
Hundreds of glass vessels were kept in a large cabinet in readiness for the latest batch of vaccines.
Elsewhere, there was a walk-in incubator to develop bacteria, a cold-room where vaccines were stored, a viral vaccine store and an expensive French-made viral vaccine harvesting machine.
On one door were the words "to be safe than sorry", the word "better" having fallen off.
The lab was first built in Charikar, in the northern province of Parwar, in 1993/4 with equipment from India.
A number of experiments were carried out, including the development of wild bacteria.
Three sheep were infected to study the results. Their carcasses were buried 30ft in desert land on the Shomali Plains away from possible contamination of water supplies.
Our source, who refused to be identified, said: "This was very dangerous work, though we knew what we were doing.
"We developed the technology of how to keep anthrax bacteria and how to develop it for use in vaccines.
"At the time, we created three million doses. It was essential work to keep our country's cattle healthy." The source said the present anthrax alert was "especially worrying", and added: "Someone with the necessary technical expertise is behind this evil."
Taliban political chiefs were quick to realise the potential of the lab after they came to power in 1996.
The following year they moved it from Charikar , where the Alliance had a stronghold, to Kabul.
At the time, the move surprised many as it was thought the Taliban had little interest in developing vaccines for use by the nation's farmers. In fact, Taliban soldiers destroyed huge tracts of fertile land so they could set up military bases without interference from a hostile local population.
Our source said: "The Taliban were very keen to take control of the laboratory.
"They moved the staff and all equipment down to the capital without warning. They wanted the laboratory there very badly."
Ten different kinds of vaccine were made at the unit. They were divided into four sections - pox vaccines, Newcastle, anaerobic and aerobic. Mullah Abdullah, previously famed for his ability to recite from the Koran, was brought in to head the operations.
Dr Raoufi said: "He and his Taliban superiors were interested in the technical detail of what happened here, although they had no background in science.
"They were also keen on the laboratory making money. Their priority was certainly not the interests of the people and the farming community at large.
"Sometimes many of their officials would turn up unannounced to see what we were doing.
"The minister himself would look round, then go away."
Dr Raoufi revealed that the vaccine institute, set up with help from the Red Cross and one of Afghanistan's most modern buildings, once had 45 staff.
But more than half left, many saying they meant to work abroad.
Dr Raoufi said: "I don't know what happened to these people.
"I'm told most went to work in America and Europe. They knew their skills were in demand elsewhere in the world." Referring to the disappearance of Mullah Abdullah, he added: "I've no idea what happened to him. He wasn't well liked. We didn't have a lot to do with him.
The production of vaccines at the Kabul factory was so successful that some samples were sent to Geneva where the Red Cross congratulated the Taliban on their work.
Veterinary expert Dr Raoufi - who was anti-Taliban but forced to wear their traditional turban and long beard - is dedicated to improving livestock conditions.
Yesterday he was at pains to reassure the West as it remained in the grip of bio-terrorism fears.
He said: "Anthrax production is under control. There is no danger because the vaccine is inactivated.
"These vaccines are to help people, not endanger them. I want to tell the world that what we are doing is safe. We are responsible."
However, he admitted that the Taliban could have obtained the knowledge to handle and develop anthrax. Dr Raoufi said: "Sadly, some use what is meant to be good for their own destructive ends."
posted on November 19, 2001 07:29:10 PM
It took me 3 tries and a clean my memory to access it with IE5.
Why would the Taliban be targeting Dems and the liberal media? (I don't know if the Enquirer is liberal or just way out there). Plus, with all the reports of electricity outages and lack of reported in Kabul, they wouldneed generators to run the equipment. I didn't see any mention of that. You have the right to an informed opinion -Harlan Ellison
posted on November 19, 2001 07:47:30 PM
Thanks, Robin.
I was using IE5 also, snowy, but never could get it to work. I have scripting turned off. Don't know if that would have had an effect.
Well, the Enquirer would be an international competitor to the Mirror. I'm a tad skeptical about all the anonymous sources myself. I can see that the Al Qaeda might have had plans for the use of the Anthrax against America but don't understand how the Taliban might have intended to employ it.
posted on November 20, 2001 08:50:13 AM
Hi Rawbunzel, I wonder why the American press isn't talking about this. There are too many details for it to be completely fabricated by the Mirror... at least it seems that way. I guess we're being "protected." Also, if there are 7 people known to be in this country who are suspected of planning to use biological or germ warfare - shouldn't their pictures be plastered everywhere so that we'll know who they are?
posted on November 22, 2001 06:11:02 PM
Regarding the old lady from Connecticut who died yesterday from inhalation anthrax- there seems to be no common link between her and any other recipient(people/locations). Perhaps she got it from someone she knows who is sending it around the country.
posted on November 23, 2001 04:42:43 PM
This latest case with the elderly lady is puzzling. All of the reports from the investigations have continued to eliminate possibilities. I did hear today on the news that she had little contact with other people, whatever exactly that means. Since they don't believe that she contracted it from the mail or her home, then someone that she knows is a possibility, especially if she recently visited them.
posted on November 23, 2001 04:57:19 PM
It would be amazing if this inadvertent case lead to the perpetrator! Reminds me of the Son of Sam case where a parking ticket lead to his arrest.
posted on November 23, 2001 05:36:28 PM
I was wondering if it could be from some persons house she may have visited or a family member.I hope the FBI is looking at her family. Here in Washington we had a fellow poison Tylenol and then replace the bottles on store shelves. It was a cover for when he poisoned his wife. Can't help but wonder if she is wealthy and some family member didn't want to wait any longer. It is amazing the lengths some people will go to for money.[or fame]
posted on November 23, 2001 06:08:25 PM
Yes, I remember the Tylenol incident. If the source was located at the house of a friend or relative, then they must have had a motive to expose her--very unlikely that it would have happened accidentally.
If she got out much, for appointments or shopping, I suppose exposure could have occured in a public building, store, office, taxi, etc. I assume that investigators are checking out what they know of her schedule. I haven't read any detailed information about her life yet.
posted on November 24, 2001 11:38:11 AM
Here's a pretty detailed report on the case from one of the Connecticut papers. But, it still leaves more questions than answers.
posted on November 24, 2001 12:09:11 PM
Good link, mybiddness. Far more detail in that story than any of the ones that I've read so far. Apparently she did still get out some and they're checking those places , as well as expanding testing in the residence. The investigators seem optimistic that they will discover the source.
posted on November 24, 2001 12:29:18 PM
Hi Dan, Unfortunately I'm not as optomistic as they are about finding the source. In fact, I'm sure they'll eventually come up with an answer just to avoid the fact that they don't have an answer. I'm afraid it won't take many more of these kinds of mystery cases to build a genuine panic... which will have a huge effect on small business owners such as myself who rely on people NOT being afraid of the mail.
My business has dropped 20% since September 11th. I'm launching more auctions and increasing my exposure in other places to help make up for the drop - but it's still shaky ground at best.
posted on November 24, 2001 02:34:01 PM
Yes, I'm sure the anthrax scare has had some effect on buyers as well as the economic uncertainties. I'm still allowing myself to continue with one of my collections, even though we have nowhere to put stuff, and the ending sales prices, the number of bids, and the number of items selling in my buyer's lists are the lowest in four years of following the eBay market. As a buyer, I've gotten some tremendous bargains, but the last couple of weeks I've begun to notice a drop in the number of items offered, as well as fewer scarce/highly desirable items. I'm only looking at one specialized area of antiques anymore so I can't judge the health of the market as a whole, though I've seen concern expressed by quite a few sellers.
The anthrax doesn't scare me at all since the probability of exposure through the mail seems to me so infintesimally small. I haven't really altered my attitudes toward mail at all, though I will admit it did cross my mind when I received a package from New Jersey a couple of days ago. I probably should be more concerned than I am.
But you are right that if many more unresolved mystery cases surface the business impact could be even more severe.
All neat and tidy.
[ edited by antiquary on Nov 24, 2001 03:16 PM ]
posted on November 24, 2001 02:38:00 PM
Hmmmm! When I edited that post to correct a typo, the html paragraph breaks appeared. Must be a glitch. I'm tempted to edit again to see if I can removed them.
posted on November 24, 2001 04:07:07 PM
There was a 1868 case of the less serious kind of anthrax in the neighborhood of the Connecticut woman and the CDC is investigating that link.
But the most significant information from this story is that there is a possibility that anthrax related deaths may have been recently misdiagnosed as flu or pneumonia.
"The state's hospitals also have been asked to review the deaths of patients who had flu-like symptoms, particularly pneumonia symptoms, since Sept. 11 to see whether any anthrax deaths might have gone unnoticed.
posted on November 24, 2001 04:47:27 PM
I've also wondered how many people have died of misdiagnosed anthrax inhalation.
The problem is that it's difficult to trust that the medical community as a whole understands the illness well enough to diagnosis it. Also, I have the added problem of never believing the government is being 100% upfront - especially when it comes to anything that they fear might cause a panic.
I blame the drop in my sales % on the economy more-so than a result of the anthrax scares... so far.
posted on November 24, 2001 05:03:12 PM
I blame the drop in my sales on the following:
1.Recession
2.not listing anything special
3.not taking Paypal anymore
4.not listing at all
5.not listing
6.not listing
I begin to see a trend here!
I think the anthrax scare caused a drop off right when it was in our face all the time in the media but I don't think it has much effect anymore. I do think the fact that so many have lost jobs or think they will lose jobs has more to do with it than anything.
I'd be willing to bet that we have had more anthrax cases even before 9-11 than we know. No one was ever looking for them before.
Yes, I've also thought it likely that some patients have been misdiagnosed in the past. Misdiagnosis isn't all that uncommon in the medical professional anyway and since most doctors lack experience with it and the probability isn't at the top of their minds, some cases could have easily been missed. I doubt that it would have been a sizable number though.
posted on November 25, 2001 02:15:02 PM
We need snoyegret's answer to this. It would seem to me that anthrax would be detected in routine blood tests that should be required for cases of flu and pneumonia taken care of in a hospital...maybe I'm wrong about that.
posted on November 27, 2001 04:26:21 PM
No one said they wanted to hear my opinion on this, but here it is anyway!
It's hard to believe that this Conneticut woman contracted inhalation anthrax through the mill source. The mill isn't in her neighborhood... It's 55 miles away. I remember reading that roundabout 40 years ago or so there was a case of inhalation anthrax in a guy who worked across the street from a mill that had anthrax contamination... but 55 miles?
Still, if you can get inhalation anthrax from across the street, maybe you also could from 55 miles away. The way the media had been talking, you'd have to have antrhax blow up in your face in a high concentration to contract it via inhalation. But the guy all those years ago across the street from the mill got inhalation anthrax, and his case alone belies the media/gov't asserations on the difficulty of contracting the inhalation form.
The more I think about all this, and especially the more I talk to my friend about it, the more hinky it all sounds. I read a good article on the NY Times (unfortunately expired from the free search now, dated Nov. 9th), about the military/gov't claims of when the "Ames Strain" was developed, and the claims of civilian scientists. The gov't military is claiming it was only developed in the '80s, while the civilian scientists trace it to the '40s.
My friend, who's a scientist in Ames (but not an animal scientist), believes the gov't/military's dating is false. Also, and I've mentioned this before, my friend disbelieves the reports that the "Ames Strain" was developed at Iowa State University. He says it was developed at the USDA research center in Ames, a, according to his reports, pretty mysterious place, surrounded by barbed wire, cloaked in secrecy. He says the sign on it identifies it as ISU/USDA, that it has scientists officially from ISU there, but that they only work in this USDA center... a joint effort in name only.
The main theme of the NYT article wasn't the discrepency between the gov't/civilian claims, but how the FBI's lack of scientific expertise might have harmed the investigation.
The article reported that, shortly after the earlier cases of anthrax were diagnosed in Florida, ISU contacted the FBI seeking permission to destroy its stores of anthrax because, reportedly, ISU was concerned that its security wasn't tight enough to prevent anthrax from being stolen. After consulting with scientists in Miama, the FBI said "go ahead." The reasoning was that the "Ames Strain" had been so widely shared with researchers around the world that examining samples still actually in Ames would probably yield no clues.
The article quoted some scientist at ISU discussing the anthrax research. This scientist said that some of these cultures were more than 50 or 60 years old, that they had just been hanging around there all that time, forgotten in storage or whatever, nobody knew exactly what their origins were, it had all been lost to the ages, there wasn't good documentation, some vials had nothing more than unreadable scribbly labels, etc. etc.
My friend read this and said it was the biggest load of bull he'd ever heard. First of all, he says, you don't just make a culture and then leave it sitting around for when you might need it. He says when scientists want a sample to save, they maintain it. He seriously doubts that any science lab would create a culture, intending to save it, and just put it on a shelf and leave it there for about 50 or 60 years. He thinks the impression that the quoted scientist was putting out, of dusty, forgotten, 50 year old vials of anthrax suddenly rembered and found in some out-of-the-way closet is ridiculous.
Also, the scientist says that some cultures have origins that can't be traced, no documentation, only unreadable scribbled labels, etc... This is like saying that scientists from the 40s had no procedures for record keeping, didn't realize the value of documentation, etc. Who believes this? Scientists from the 40s were scientists, no different from today's scientists. This article made it sound like they were pre-historic, there were no written records we could examine to see what was going on with these anthrax cultures. I flat out don't believe that. Science is science. The technology might have changed, perhaps now they store their data on computers, but scientists have long known (and way before the 40s) the value of creating and preserving detailed documentation.
posted on November 27, 2001 07:08:03 PM
Yeah, the mill source is at best improbable, especially in the case of this particular elderly lady. I haven't read much about the guy who lived across from the mill, but he could have been traipsing around the area, I suppose, possibly picking up and examining stuff, etc. This case with the Connecticut lady intrigues me, but we'll probably never know what really happened.
posted on November 27, 2001 08:59:01 PM
Well, I dunno. One article I read said that the two places, the mill and the machine shop across the street. shared a common ventilation system, but what that entailed wasn't explained. From what I can figure, the mill across the street was still operating when the guy at the machine shop got inhalation anthrax... I'd doubt if he just went in and buried his face in anthrax, you wouldn't think a factory, any factory, would let guys just go wandering around on the workroom floor.
Here's an article originally from the NY Times about it:
posted on November 27, 2001 09:12:18 PM
Thanks for the link. I hadn't seen any stories about the mill specifically. I was under the impression that the mill had closed some time before the guy had gotten the anthrax. At least that was the impression that I had gotten from the last article that I had read. After reading this article, there doesn't seem to be any possible connection to the Connecticut lady.
posted on November 28, 2001 06:24:55 AM
I think that I had said, in some past thread, that the mill had been closed for several years when the guy across the street got inhalation anthrax. I had originally read about the old NH incident in the print edition of one of our Ga papers, and, unless I misread it at the time, they had said that.
Anyway, so many things that they say about anthrax don't jibe... It can't be as difficult to contract the inhalation form as they've made out, I'd heard over and over that the spores would have to be highly concentrated and puff up into someone's face. Whether this guy in the old NH case worked in a place that shared a ventilation system, whether the mill was closed or open, it's doubtful, I would think, that he contracted his anthrax through a high-concentration puffing. And if he did go in the mill, how long would he have stayed? Even people who worked in the mill all day with the contaminated fibers didn't universally contract inhalation anthrax. Some didn't contract any form of anthrax, while some contracted the skin form.
So perhaps it's easier to contract inhalation anthrax than we thought. It doesn't take some kind of puffing up in the face, or a high concentation spores, or prolonged exposure. And, perhaps, there have been more cases of inahlation anthrax in the past that were misdiagnosed... But it seems to me that the misdiagnosis idea has problems...
From what I've read, here and there, when someone in the past, in one of these mills, for instance, contracted anthrax, skin or inhalation, others in the area would as well. While you might misdiagnose the odd, single case, the thing about anthrax seems to have been that the cases weren't singular. They were isolated in area, but in that area, several people would contract anthrax. That, to me, would make the theory of past cases slipping through the cracks less plausible.
So, the idea that, unknown to us, single, unconnected people, like this elderly lady and the NYC hospital worker, have been quietly passing away through the years from inhalation anthrax misdiagnosed as, say, pneumonia, is problematic, since if anthrax is present more than one person seems to contract it, and after a couple of unexpected pneumonia deaths among people who have a connection, doctors would likely wonder if something else was up and take a second look.
In short, I think that, if anthrax is around, it's easier to contract it, even in the inhalation form, than we thought, but I also think that anthrax has hardly ever been around.
And, also, the more I hear about the "Ames Strain," the more strongly I suspect it was developed by/for the military, under the guise of USDA/ISU, Ames has been involved in military research since WWII. They say it's untraceable, that the strain had been shared around with other scientists all over the world, making the anthrax that's showing up now impossible to trace back... But if the military did develop it, this anthrax strain that the vaccination doesn't work for, is it likely they would have just passed this strain around to whoever asked to do research on it?
[ edited by antiquary on Nov 24, 2001 03:16 PM ]