posted on July 5, 2002 11:45:09 PM
Bush seems bound and determined to get a war going somewhere, anywhere. But if we did get into an all-out war, could we even win it? I ponder this because I have really started to wonder about our military and its capabilities. Mistakes, blunders and accidents keep being reported. Running kids over with a tank in Korea. Flying into gondolas in the Alps. Surfacing a sub into a fishing boat in Japan. Bombing weddings in Afghanistan. Spy satellites destroyed on the launch pad due to frayed wiring. Pilots being "confused by clouds" during a practice run & bombing a civilian post in Puerto Rico. Dropping a bomb on our own observers in Kuwait during a bombing exercise. "Friendly fire" incidents that kill our own soldiers and allies. And at least once a year we hear reports of military helicopters or planes crashing during exercises or just transporting personnel.
All this does not inspire a great deal of confidence in our military, its training or its equipment.
posted on July 6, 2002 12:05:15 AM
We couldn't win the "war on drugs". What makes us think we could win the "war on terrorism"? They are both the same, in my eyes.
posted on July 6, 2002 01:06:01 AM
We'd win any war he'd contemplate. None of his evildoers have the wherewithal to mount any kind of sustained action against the levels of firepower we can bring to bear. It'd be just bullying, or a cakewalk like desert storm was.
China may have the capability and any war against them will be against a determined, capable, and well equipped army that may make up in martial spirit what they lack in technofun weaponry.
The accidents you cite are carelessness or poor inexperienced leaders. Things would change quickly in a war because the sloppy and innattentive get killed, and the rest get serious.
posted on July 6, 2002 04:28:27 AM
The sort of problems cited are also part of any large organization. Look at the movie catch 22 to see they were common enough to lampoon in the Korean war. If you saw the inside operations at the big three automakers you would be amazed that they EVER get a car designed and built and on the street. My wife working for an outside vendor was often called to find out who DID something within their own company and how to find them because their own internal communications were so bad the engineer could not find the person buying plastic for example - to tell him what they were using would not work for the application.
posted on July 6, 2002 12:07:07 PM
First off Our Soldiers in Korea dailey face an enemy that has sworn to destroy the United States for the last 50 Years.
They recently Attacked without provcation allied naval forces murdering many crewmen and sinking their vessel.
This filthy marxist scum has attacked and murdered American servicemen many times over the decades since the war ended, one time sending a party of thugs to axe murder our men.
The seizure of the USS Pueblo not long after Israel attacked her sister ship the Liberty still raises a lot of unanswered questions.
We should deal with China Now. China is on a wartime footing and a massive buildup. She keeps North Korea on a pitbull like leash.
I strongly suspect she knows the location of American POWs from Morea and Vietnam.
Politicians and business types dealing with China selling them secrets like Mr. Clinton did should be tried for treason.
In order to win a war the first thing needed is resolve. The only war the current administration seemed resolved to win is an all out assault on the poor and working people of this country. Coupled with a major assualt on the largest racial group in the country.
They dont want us to have any heroes, they want these plastic Bush Clinton clones that read out what a computer told them we want to hear.
Who was the last medal of Honor winner?
What are the names of those 3 firemen ?
the ones the government wants to change the race of.
Who were the men who fought the terrorists on the place?
Who risked everything lately to save a life of a stranger.
Where are the Americans the ones whose kids dont screw around in gangs.
You allowed this all of you and you better wake up before its too late.
posted on July 6, 2002 12:37:42 PM
auroranorth,Pretty much everyone here, is awake.
All the heated debates,Name calling,Oh yeah,They be awake.Just frustrated at not being able to name their problem.Everyone knows something is wrong and we are headed into something we don't want.To complain too loudly would have many repucusions(sp?)Gov.agencys can and have been used against anyone who complains over a system of unfairness.Nixion was impeached,That probley will not happen again(the big boys have placed many new laws in affect to cover many arses).Try to have one of these conversations at ebay in a chat room and see what happens. ebay was built on lies,Even the pez storie was for marketing a product.(the girlfriend&pez started it all)Big fib.
Got any soulotions to the problems you mentioned?We all have questions,I won't take responsibility for what is happening now,It was out of my hands long ago.
posted on July 6, 2002 12:44:15 PM
China will be absorbed economically, not with war. The seeds of China's economic assimilation have already been sown. Communist China will fall from wealth and private property, not war.
Me thinks the US has some wisdom about war. It would appear that the policy of "winning the peace" as we did at least temporarily in WWI is more in line with our intentions.
The Gulf War did not win the peace in the middle east region. It is as if we hadn't even fought that war. Even Kuwaiti's are calling the US the great satan.
Unfortunately, the only model that appears will work in the middle east is the WWII model- reduce to rubble, and re-build.
I don't think there is anything peaceful the West can do to appease the Islamic culture.
Taking out Sadam in Iraq may make things worse. Whatever replaces Sadam will be seen as the product of the West, automatically rejected by many, and the US will be blamed for anything and everything that goes wrong under the new regime. The Imams of Iran and the Royal families of Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, and the others, will actively undermine any democratic form of govt we install in the region. The West's failure in the region is their victory.
Israel could disappear tomorrow and the situation would be the same. Throughout history, every Western cultural foothold in that region was destroyed. Israel's Western democracy and free enterprise system is the threat. Imagine how destabilizing a thriving democracy and free enterprise system would be if it were supplanted into Latin or South America. Look at the issues that Mexico faces just by being next door to the US - we dictate much of what Mexico can and can not do. Mexico's entire working population may come to the US if nothing was done to stop it, such as placing US factories there or the meager INS activity.
Let's face facts, the Islamic culture despises Western style democracy. Their institutions, whether religious, secular, or govt, are diametrically opposed to Western ideals. This places the West and Islam on a collision course. The tenets of the Islamic culture harbor few differences with Imperial Japan or Nazi Germany. The principle difference is that all the factions of Islam have yet to firmly unite. Our activities may give them the impetus to unite.
posted on July 6, 2002 01:27:28 PM
"You allowed this all of you~"
I reject responsibility.
I have fought this mind set since grade school where the teacher said we were each responsible for the misbehavior of anyone in our class. I did not pick my class mates or my countrymen. And just as the teacher was appaled when I beat the snot out of someone making us all recieve punishment in strict accord with her theory - the government will punish me if I act against those bring shame upon me in the name of the government. They both want a scapegoat that does not fight back.
To state it in terms the AW filter will pass..
May you all perish in a perverse act of painful autoerotic excess.
posted on July 6, 2002 03:05:04 PM
I ran across this piece in today's WP which includes information about the wedding incident that Bunnicula listed. Some of it I hadn't encountered before, especially the fact that among the victims were quite a few close supporters of Karzai, the new Afghan president. Apparently, there's some concern that the US's presence is interferring with attempts to establish the new government.
The introduction is reprinted below with the url, if anyone's interested.
Killing the Friendly
Saturday, July 6, 2002; Page A16
IT MAY be that the widely varying accounts of what happened early Monday morning in the Afghan hamlet of Kakarak, which came under attack by a U.S. gunship, will never be reconciled entirely. But this much is known for sure: Scores of innocent Afghan women and children attending a wedding party were raked from the air with heavy machine gun and cannon fire, and a number were wounded or killed. Among the victims were close supporters of Afghan President Hamid Karzai, a crucial U.S. ally whose government is engaged in an uphill struggle to establish its authority in the very region where the killings took place. Mr. Karzai, who estimates that 46 people died and that more than 130 were wounded, has responded by demanding that American forces coordinate military raids more closely with his government. It's not the first time he has made that request, nor is this the first incident in which U.S. troops have killed innocent Afghans in the president's home province. This time Mr. Karzai should be heeded.
posted on July 6, 2002 03:31:44 PM
There's a lot of lost ground because of that one, not helped by the intitial denial, then claims of having been fired upon.
posted on July 6, 2002 04:48:05 PM
This tragedy leaves Karzai in a difficult position. He has to maintain the respect of his justifiably angry people while diplomatically dealing with the United States.
The question, in my opinion, is not "could we win a war?" The question is should we engage in war at all.
posted on July 6, 2002 11:15:15 PMWhat are the names of those 3 firemen ? the ones the government wants to change the race of. That is so wrong, IMO. Honor the men who did that, don't make it politically correct.
posted on July 6, 2002 11:22:08 PMChina will be absorbed economically, not with war. The seeds of China's economic assimilation have already been sown.
I do so hope you are right.
In my youth, I never would have believed or imagined that I'd witness the leaders of the US and USSR like we have recently. It's a miracle.
posted on July 6, 2002 11:43:05 PM"I'd witness the leaders of the US and USSR like we have recently. It's a miracle".
It is NOT a miracle, it is only taking advantage of situations to use each other against someone else. "Miracle" implies some holy intervention. THAT only occurred when Hitler befriended Stalin.
posted on July 7, 2002 12:09:49 AM
The Russians are looking better and better as allies against the Islamic world. At least they have some appreciation of a technological society. Being in a frozen landscape a good chunk of the year will do that to you.
Think Bush is stupid to not halt global warming?
It won't be long before anything under 30 degrees latitude is uninhabitable without tunneling and airconditioning. Bengladesh will be underwater and India will be reduced by a third. Africa will be stripped of a huge chunk of population both by climate and AIDS.
If you have to have air to live one smart bomb on the power plant makes a city uninhabitable. The third world can't keep the electricity on all day right now just from lack of skills and parts.
It is going to be a different world very very soon.
posted on July 7, 2002 12:13:32 AMThe question is should we engage in war at all.
In this particular instance, or in general?
In general, I think most would agree that war is something to be avoided if at all possible. It would be wonderful if humanity had evolved to a point socially where it would be unnecessary. I think we are a long way from that point, unfortunately.
In the here and now, in this particular instance...I believe that after the attack a war was inevitable. To fail to strike back would have been to invite more attacks on our own soil. BUT I don't believe that the way Bush is going about things is the way to do it. Inevitably the sympathy that we garnered around the world will be dispelled in the light of Bush's thirst for world domination. Yes, go after the ones directly responsible. But to then go on to state that you will carry war into whatever nation he feels might hold a future threat to us is outside of enough. Now he is telling other countries how to run their own affairs and demanding compliance to his wishes. Very shortly we may find ourselves facing former allies who have become adversaries due to this policy. Germany learned quickly during World War II that it didn't stand a chance when a majority of nations joined forces against it. Bush may put us in the same position...
posted on July 7, 2002 12:31:27 AM
China is using her new found wealth to buy weapons and technology on a massive scale, I know this is bad news. She is building Aircraft carriers. Do not shoot the messenger keep an eye on her. China of all nations knows what it means to save face to the Japanese. It did not stop her from sending troops into the Japanese embassy recently. These are the actions of madman.They are not the actions of someone we should be selling weapons grade technology to. Out News Media and and leaders are at best politically ignorant this is why we have to resort to force so often.
Remember when the Kids fought for democracy there / Our Republican conservative President sat there stupified while the kids gave him and the Marxist scumbags a lesson in courage. Our media idiots sat on world television raving that the statue the kids had built was the symbol of American democracy. Up until this point the Chinese generals who had been ordered to shoot did nothing. But when it seemded to them that they kids were carrying a foreign symbol that finally acted killing those freedom fighters.while Bush sat mentally paralized like a traitorous rat to the principals the average citizens here believe in.
This may come as a shock to you, Those kids were not carrying a replica of the statue of liberty. they were carrying a copy of the goddess of Liberty which was the theme of China's flag in the year 1350, yes China.s flag was yellow with a white seated goddess of liberty. those scum shot those kids for carrying their own flag. If Our Newscasters were not ignorant stage personalities then they would have got it right and said on world tv the kids are carrying China's ancient symbol of freedom and maybe we would not have that gang of few running the place right now. I wonder how many lives each Idiot with a news camera fixed on him cost the freedom loving peoples of this world. and further unless you mention this to some of the imbeciles they will continue to pavel out their ignorance on a grand scale.
ebay was built on lies,Even the pez storie was for marketing a product.(the girlfriend&pez started it all)Big fib.