posted on August 5, 2004 03:19:49 PM new
Too close to the truth for Kerry, so now he wants the ads banished. So much for the DEMO idea of FREEDOM of SPEECH. If Kerry can't take the heat, he needs to drop oout of the race,,,
------------
HUMAN EVENTS has obtained a copy of a letter which lawyers for the Democratic National Committee and John Kerry have sent to television station managers attempting to suppress the blistering anti-Kerry TV spot created by the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth (click here to view the ad) and first reported here on HumanEventsOnline.com.
The letter claims the ad is "false" and "libelous" and suggests, in not-so-subtle terms, that TV stations should use their "legal authority" to refuse any requests for advertising airtime, stating that "because your station has this freedom [to refuse the ad], and because it is not a 'use' of your facilities by a clearly identified candidate, your station is responsible for the false and libelous charges made by this sponsor" (emphasis added).
As their first piece of evidence of the ad's supposed lies, the DNC/Kerry lawyers claim that the veterans in the ad "purport to have served on Senator Kerry's SWIFT Boat in Vietnam" but, "in fact, not a single one of the men who pretend to have served with Senator Kerry was actually a crewmate of Senator Kerry's." The problem is that none of these men claimed to have served on Kerry's SWIFT Boat. They simply said they "served with John Kerry" -- and they did.
The letter goes on to make several more misleading statements about the advertisement, in an attempt to protect Kerry's "war hero" record. Read the full text below.
-------------
What do you think of the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth video?
posted on August 5, 2004 06:11:47 PM new
kerry's lawyers are working overtime during this election campaign....trying to silence a lot of people....can't just let them say what they wish to and then either prove them wrong or ???....no...get those lawyers to keep Nader out of the race...and to silence those who have the right to say whatever they wish to say.
And they have some nerve after all the lies they've told about this President during this campaign.
posted on August 5, 2004 06:24:06 PM new
I have ONE and only ONE question.
Have they proven that these are or are not actually Kerry's shipmates? It should be easily provable one way or the other.
If these *are* actually Kerry's shipmates, then my mind is in fact made up. I'd vote for my DOG before I'd vote for Kerry if these were actually his former shipmates.
--------------------------------------
We do not stop playing because we grow old. We grow old because we stop playing -- Anonymous
posted on August 5, 2004 07:02:05 PM new
None of them were on Kerry's boat.
The ringleader O'Neil wasn't even in Vietnam when Kerry was there.
It is also strange how these "patriots" waited 35 years before they said anything about any of this.
Kerry's medals were vetted up and down the line 35 years ago and none of them said anything. Now it seems their conscience and their memories have had a miraculous recovery.
posted on August 5, 2004 07:14:04 PM newNone of them were on Kerry's boat. They didn't have to be on Kerrys boat to question his actions.
In a quote from George Bates, an officer in Coastal Division 11, participated in numerous operations with Kerry. In UNFIT FOR COMMAND, Bates recalls a particular patrol with Kerry on the Song Bo De River. He is still "haunted" by the incident:
With Kerry in the lead, the boats approached a small hamlet with three or four grass huts. Pigs and chickens were milling around peacefully. As the boats drew closer, the villagers fled. There were no political symbols or flags in evidence in the tiny village. It was obvious to Bates that existing policies, decency, and good sense required the boats to simply move on.
Instead, Kerry beached his boat directly in the small settlement. Upon his command, the numerous small animals were slaughtered by heavy-caliber machine guns. Acting more like a pirate than a naval officer, Kerry disembarked and ran around with a Zippo lighter, burning up the entire hamlet.
posted on August 5, 2004 07:19:26 PM new
Its real sad that some fraction of the republican party has stooped so low. I talked to several of my republican friends which include vets and they are sickened by this. Even John McCain had the guts to come out against it. This is going to backfire on them bigtime.
posted on August 5, 2004 07:24:34 PM new
No one can discount the approx. 15 - 20 vets against kerry websites and what they say about him. They have a right to give their side of the story....a right to be heard. Everyone will make up their on mind. But those who served this country should NEVER be silenced from sharing their own experiences about kerry's actions. NEVER....they EARNED that right.
here's a picture that kerry used to give the impression he had this support from those he posed with. Pay attention to how many DON'T support him as commander-in-chief.
posted on August 5, 2004 07:34:36 PM new
Yeah ask the guy kerry pulled from the water if he can be trusted. All I can say is bush must be really in trouble if they are scraping the bottom of the barrel like this. I cant wait to see the debates.
And click on and read some of the links on this page too.
I do not believe John Kerry is fit to be Commander-in-Chief of the armed forces of the United States. This is not a political issue. It is a matter of his judgment, truthfulness, reliability, loyalty and trust -- all absolute tenets of command. His biography, 'Tour of Duty,' by Douglas Brinkley, is replete with gross exaggerations, distortions of fact, contradictions and slanderous lies. His contempt for the military and authority is evident by even a most casual review of this biography. He arrived in-country with a strong anti-Vietnam War bias and a self-serving determination to build a foundation for his political future. He was aggressive, but vain and prone to impulsive judgment, often with disregard for specific tactical assignments. He was a 'loose cannon.' In an abbreviated tour of four months and 12 days, and with his specious medals secure, Lt.(jg) Kerry bugged out and began his infamous betrayal of all United States forces in the Vietnam War. That included our soldiers, our marines, our sailors, our coast guardsmen, our airmen, and our POWs. His leadership within the so-called Vietnam Veterans Against the War and testimony before Congress in 1971 charging us with unspeakable atrocities remain an undocumented but nevertheless meticulous stain on the men and women who honorably stayed the course. Senator Kerry is not fit for command."
-- Rear Admiral Roy Hoffman, USN (retired), chairman, Swift Boat Veterans for Truth
"During Lt.(jg) Kerry's tour, he was under my command for two or three specific operations, before his rapid exit.
Trust, loyalty and judgment are the key, operative words. His turncoat performance in 1971 in his grubby shirt and his medal-tossing escapade, coupled with his slanderous lines in the recent book portraying us that served, including all POWs and MIAs, as murderous war criminals, I believe, will have a lasting effect on all military veterans and their families.
Kerry would be described as devious, self-absorbing, manipulative, disdain for authority, disruptive, but the most common phrase that you'd hear is 'requires constant supervision.'"
Captain Charles Plumly, USN (retired)
"While in Cam Rahn Bay, he trained on several 24-hour indoctrination missions, and one special skimmer operation with my most senior and trusted Lieutenant. The briefing from some members of that crew the morning after revealed that they had not received any enemy fire, and yet Lt.(jg) Kerry informed me of a wound -- he showed me a scratch on his arm and a piece of shrapnel in his hand that appeared to be from one of our own M-79s. It was later reported to me that Lt.(jg) Kerry had fired an M-79, and it had exploded off the adjacent shoreline. I do not recall being advised of any medical treatment, and probably said something like 'Forget it.' He later received a Purple Heart for that scratch, and I have no information as to how or whom.
Lt.(jg) Kerry was allowed to return to the good old USA after 4 months and a few days in-country, and then he proceeded to betray his former shipmates, calling them criminals who were committing atrocities. Today we are here to tell you that just the opposite is true. Our rules of engagement were quite strict, and the officers and men of Swift often did not even return fire when they were under fire if there was a possibility that innocent people -- fishermen, in a lot of cases -- might be hurt or injured. The rules and the good intentions of the men increased the possibility that we might take friendly casualties."
-- Commander Grant Hibbard, USN (retired)
"Lt. Kerry returned home from the war to make some outrageous statements and allegations... of numerous criminal acts in violation of the law of war were cited by Kerry, disparaging those who had fought with honor in that conflict. Had war crimes been committed by US forces in Vietnam? Yes, but such acts were few and far between. Yet Lt. Kerry have numerous speeches and testimony before Congress inappropriately leading his audiences to believe that what was only an anomaly in the conduct of America's fighting men was an epidemic. Furthermore, he suggested that they were being encouraged to violated the law of war by those within the chain of command.
Very specific orders, on file at the Vietnam archives at Texas Tech University, were issued by my father [Admiral Elmo Zumwalt] and others in his chain of command instructing subordinates to act responsibly in preserving the life and property of Vietnamese civilians."
-- Lt. Col. James Zumwalt, USMC (retired)
"In 1971, when John Kerry spoke out to America, labeling all Vietnam veterans as thugs and murderers, I was shocked and almost brought to my knees, because even though I had served at the same time and same unit, I had never witnessed or participated in any of the events that the Senator had accused us of. I strongly believe that the statements made by the Senator were not only false and inaccurate, but extremely harmful to the United States' efforts in Southeast Asia and the rest of the world. Tragically, some veterans, scorned by the antiwar movement and their allies, retreated to a life of despair and suicide. Two of my crewmates were among them. For that there is no forgiveness. "
-- Richard O'Meara
"My name is Steve Gardner. I served in 1966 and 1967 on my first tour of duty in Vietnam on Swift boats, and I did my second tour in '68 and '69, involved with John Kerry in the last 2 1/2 months of my tour. The John Kerry that I know is not the John Kerry that everybody else is portraying. I served alongside him and behind him, five feet away from him in a gun tub, and watched as he made indecisive moves with our boat, put our boats in jeopardy, put our crews in jeopardy... if a man like that can't handle that 6-man crew boat, how can you expect him to be our Commander-in-Chief?"
-- Steven Gardner
Rally in Washington, DC Sept 12 2PM at Capitol Bld
[ edited by Linda_K on Aug 5, 2004 07:51 PM ]
posted on August 5, 2004 07:49:25 PM new
Bush holds 23% lead among veterans
But those with no military service favor Kerry by 10 points
Military veterans favor President Bush over John Kerry by a 58 to 35 percent margin, according to a new poll.
The Rasmussen Reports survey also showed those with no military service favor Kerry by ten percentage points, 51 to 41.
Of those Americans who say they know someone serving in Iraq or Afghanistan, 54 percent favor Bush, compared to 44 percent siding with Kerry.
On the question of who would make a better commander in chief, Bush edges Kerry, 47 to 45 percent.
Fifty-four percent of veterans give the president good or excellent ratings for handling the situation in Iraq, the poll showed.
The opinion of veterans has coming sharply into focus recently with the release of a scathing TV commercial featuring a group of 13 men who served in Vietnam calling Kerry a liar and unfit for the presidency.
Also, the unreleased book "Unfit for Command" includes several stories questioning Kerry's integrity, including one claiming the candidate earned his Silver Star in Vietnam "by killing a lone, fleeing, teenage Viet Cong in a loincloth."
Some of the information that you have noted above has been denied in urban legends. For example, Admiral Hoffman according to your source has Hoffman saying, "John Kerry has not been honest".
Urban legends has a different story on Hoffman and several others on your list. The group against Kerry is politically motivated. How can you call this kind of smear patriotic and in support of the troops?
"How well all of these men knew John Kerry is questionable, and discrepancies between how some of them described Kerry thirty-five years ago and how they describe him today suggest that their opinions are largely based upon political differences rather than objective assessments of Kerry's military record. For example, Rear Admiral Roy Hoffman is quoted above, yet the Los Angeles Times reported:
. . . Hoffman and Kerry had few direct dealings in Vietnam. A Los Angeles Times examination of Navy archives found that Hoffman praised Kerry's performance in cabled messages after several river skirmishes.1
WASHINGTON - Republican Sen. John McCain (news, bio, voting record), a former prisoner of war in Vietnam, called an ad criticizing John Kerry (news - web sites)'s military service "dishonest and dishonorable" and urged the White House on Thursday to condemn it as well.
[ edited by davebraun on Aug 5, 2004 08:11 PM ]
posted on August 5, 2004 08:28:03 PM new
And here's a few POW's who aren't voting for kerry either - There are many, many vet groups that are working hard to show kerry for what he is.....a BIG pretender.
Want to read about kerry and how our VN vets see him....do a google search of your own. Just type in: vietnam veterans against john kerry....or just type in: MIA/POWS against john kerry - you'll have reading for days. Or kerrylied.com there are hundreds of sites all wanting the general public to know what a farce he is.
Don't take my word for it....read what the vets say themselves..... If the opinions of those who also served in VN mean anything to you....it might just make a difference on whether you think he's capable of being our Commander-In-Chief....or if he's just a politician using his 4 month service to falsely try and impress the uninformed.
posted on August 5, 2004 08:41:06 PM new
Somehow I believe John McCain rather than some senile old bigot warmonger spreading rumors, lies and inuendo via the internet.
posted on August 5, 2004 08:58:53 PM new
As I've previously pointed out....McCain's own statements....he too felt what kerry did when he returned home was detrimental to our POWs......he's just changed his mind in recent years. He'd rather we don't bring a 35 year old war into this election. But it was KERRY who has chosen to bring his VN service up, in each and every speech he's given since he started running for President. Now they're friends and McCain doesn't want to take sides..his right. But you dems don't want to acknowledge what he says about this President's service either....no....
That doesn't mean these vets are lying in any way, shape or form. They too are telling the same stories about kerry....and anyone who thinks they're all lying is crazy.....and has absolutely no respect for those who have served this country - those who put their lives on the line in VN - those 58,000+ who died in that war...and many thousands more who can home injured...both physically and mentally.
I refuse to discount any of their 'been there' words. While you prefer to support the lies of a traitor to this country....who NOW wants to use his 4 months for his political advantage. Well.....these vets aren't doing it for THEIR political advantage...but rather to let those who aren't aware know kerry isn't fit to be Commander-In-Chief. #*!@...he won't even vote for needed supplies for our troops in Iraq. Some CIC he'd make....NOT!!!
Here's a great sites....with several links to those against kerry....MANY veteran related posts/statements.
posted on August 5, 2004 09:05:18 PM new
Another one of Linda's brainless right wing fillubusters. Today, this very day McCain came out against the sleezebag tactics which some supposed VN vets have engaged in on behalf of the WH. Not last year, not 10 years ago but today. Will that stop the brainless bag of gas from attempting to spread what she knows to be lies. Of course not.
Tactics such as these will bring more and more voters to the Kerry camp.
Hundreds of former commanders and military colleagues of presumptive Democratic nominee John Kerry are set to declare in a signed letter that he is "unfit to be commander-in-chief." They will do so at a press conference in Washington on Tuesday.
"What is going to happen on Tuesday is an event that is really historical in dimension," John O'Neill, a Vietnam veteran who served in the Navy as a PCF (Patrol Craft Fast) boat commander, told CNSNews.com. The event, which is expected to draw about 25 of the letter-signers, is being organized by a newly formed group called Swift Boat Veterans for Truth.
"We have 19 of 23 officers who served with [Kerry. We have every commanding officer he ever had in Vietnam. They all signed a letter that says he is unfit to be commander-in-chief," O'Neill said.
O'Neill, currently a Houston, Texas, based attorney, is no stranger to Kerry. O'Neill served in the same naval unit as Kerry and commanded Kerry's swift boat after Kerry returned to the United States. Kerry's command of the PCF boat lasted four months and ended shortly after he received his third Purple Heart. According to naval regulations at the time, any sailor who received three Purple Hearts could request a transfer out of the combat zone.
Kerry and O'Neill engaged in a nationally televised debate in 1971 on The Dick Cavett Show over Kerry's allegations that many Vietnam soldiers had routinely engaged in atrocities such as raping and cutting off ears and heads of Vietnamese soldiers and citizens. Kerry was the then spokesman for the anti-war group Vietnam Veterans Against the War.
"We are going to be presenting a letter that deals with Kerry's unfitness to be commander and chief that has been signed by hundreds of swift boat sailors, including most of those who served with Kerry," O'Neill explained.
"The ranks of the people signing [the letter] range from admiral down to seaman, and they run across the entire spectrum of politics, specialties, and political feelings about the Vietnam War," he added.
Among those scheduled to attend the event at the National Press Club and declare Kerry unfit for the role of commander-in-chief are retired Naval Rear Admiral Roy Hoffmann, who was the commander of the Navy Coastal Surveillance Force, which included the swift boats on which Kerry served.
Also scheduled to be present at the event is Kerry's former commanding officer, Lt. Commander Grant Hibbard. Hibbard recently questioned whether Kerry deserved the first of his three Purple Hearts that he received in Vietnam. Hibbard doubted both the severity of the wound and whether it resulted from enemy fire.
"I've had thorns from a rose that were worse" than Kerry's wound for which he received a Purple Heart, Hibbard told the Boston Globe in April.
Organizers are confident that Tuesday's event and the letter with hundreds of signatures will educate people about Kerry.
"It is one of the largest outpourings of concern about him being commander-in-chief that anybody could have in a presidential campaign and it is by the people who know him best," O'Neill said.
'Unfit Commander-in-Chief'Swift Boat Veterans For Truth maintains that Kerry's fellow Vietnam veterans are almost uniform in their disdain for his military service and anti-war protests.
"Not only a majority of the people who served with him feel that way, but a vast and overwhelming majority," O'Neill said. He added that more than "ninety percent of the people contacted by Swift Boat Veterans for Truth responded to the request to sign their name, with only 12 declining to sign.
"Comrades who actually served with him, almost all of them, are opposed to him, and believe he would be an unfit commander in chief and intend to bring the truth of his actual record to the attention of the American people," O'Neill said.
O'Neill hopes the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth can reveal to the American people what he sees as Kerry's flawed character.
"In the military, loyalty between commanders and the troops serving them is a two-way street. We have here a guy (Kerry) that with all of us in the field [in Vietnam] -- actually fighting the North Vietnamese -- came home and then falsely accused all of us of war crimes at a time when the people in uniform couldn't even respond," O'Neill said.
"And he did that knowing that was a lie," he added.
'Real John Kerry'
B. G. Burkett, author of the book Stolen Valor and a military researcher, believes that Tuesday's event will not be dismissed easily by Kerry's campaign as a "partisan" attack.
"There are probably just as many Democrats amongst sailors who sailed swift boats as there are Republicans. What Kerry fails to realize is this has nothing to do with politics -- this has to with Vietnam Veterans who served, who have a beef with John Kerry's service, both during and after the war," Burkett told CNSNews.com.
"The American people do not know John Kerry and hopefully the swift boat crews and other Vietnam veterans will make sure that the American public knows the real John Kerry," he added.
Jim Loftus of Kerry's press office referred questions about Swift Boat Veterans for Truth's event on Tuesday to spokesman David Wade. Wade did not return CNSNews.com's requests for comment.
Kerry has launched an ad campaign touting his service in Vietnam in an effort to counter the criticism ahead of Tuesday's press conference.
The $25 million ads show photographs of a young Kerry as a Navy lieutenant on the Swift boat he commanded in Vietnam's Mekong Delta as well as photos of him in fatigues holding a rifle.
[ edited by Linda_K on Aug 5, 2004 09:33 PM ]
posted on August 5, 2004 09:36:40 PM new
According to the article I posted a link to these veterans did not serve on Kerry's craft. They claim they were stationed in the same vicinity. The WH has distanced itself from this group as their claims cannot be substantiated and appear to be libelous.
The claims in my opinion are simply a politically motivated smear job which are being spread by a few brainless ideologs on this BBS.
Smear Boat Veterans for Bush
The "swift boat" veterans attacking John Kerry's war record are led by veteran right-wing operatives using the same vicious techniques they used against John McCain four years ago.
SBVT contains many officers who praised Kerry's conduct during the Vietnam War. These include Division Commander Grant Hibbard, who wrote positive evaluations of Kerry, and Commander George Elliott, who submitted Kerry for a Silver Star. By contrast, none of the men who directly served under Kerry in his swift boat belong to SBVT and they actively campaign on behalf of Kerry's presidential bid.
[ edited by davebraun on Aug 5, 2004 09:44 PM ]
posted on August 5, 2004 09:42:42 PM new
Linda, haven't you learned by now that when anyone expresses a personal opinion (Like the Swift Boat Vets), that is contrary to the left wing demo gog idealistic party line, their first and only defense to attack Pres Bush and his Honorable Discharge.
Another swift lie
Swift Boat Veteran John O'Neill has been trying to discredit John Kerry for three decades. He'd be more believable if he'd stop telling bald-faced lies on national TV.
In his April 1971 testimony, Kerry claimed that U.S. policy in Vietnam had already or would soon cause 200,000 Vietnamese to be "murdered" by the U.S. annually, and that the United States was the world's worst violator of the Geneva Conventions. He also called "bogus" the notion that communism was a threat to the United States and suggested at one point that as many as 80% of U.S. soldiers in Vietnam got themselves high on drugs every day in order to deal with the war--a claim he immediately retracted under questioning.
In the same testimony, Kerry also repeated several dubious and unexplored charges that had been made at the anti-war "Winter Soldier Investigation" in Detroit that year:
"They told the stories at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war," Kerry told the committee.
Many of the speakers at the 1971 Winter Soldier event were later discovered to have lied about their Vietnam service or fraudulently used the names of real Vietnam veterans.
In subsequent investigations by the military, none would sign an affidavit or help the military investigate atrocity claims.
Lonsdale, who commanded Kerry in An Thoi, remarked at the press conference that he recalled many conversations with Kerry during the war, but "never once heard Sen. Kerry say one thing about atrocities."
Asked about his 1971 testimony on NBC's "Meet the Press" last month, Kerry largely stood by his claims although he said the language he used to describe U.S. troops' actions may have been excessive. When the show's host, Tim Russert, pointed out that much of the Winter Soldier testimony had been discredited, Kerry replied, "Actually, a lot of them have been documented."
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
"One thing is for sure: the extremists have faith in our weakness. And the weaker we are, the more they will come after us." --Tony Blair
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
"The War on Terror will not be won until America is united. And as long as Democrats target the Bush administration -- not the terrorists -- as the enemy, we are in trouble." --Oliver North
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
posted on August 6, 2004 12:25:46 AM new
In response to pooBear's post with all the poll results I'll give you a quote from another PooBear posy:
"""Q: Daddy, what’s a poll?
A: A poll is something great leaders like Kerry use to make decisions.
Q: Why can't Democrats make a decision on their own?
Why do they need polls?
A: Because they're really disinterested in doing the right thing. They only want to do ANYTHING that makes them look good, with as little political risk as possible"""
posted on August 6, 2004 08:41:32 AM new
Sorry bear, I didn't see your post last night.
Yes, everyone can easily see this is not the RNC stating their individual versions of the events in VN, but rather the vets themselves speaking out....it sure is the DNC lawyers trying to silence their right to give their side of the story.
It's also quite obvious that while the dems here are so quick to cling on to McCains recent statements about kerry's VN service, they choose to ignore/discount what he also says about this President's service. Clear they're only willing to believe half of what he said....the part they want to listen to/believe - not all of what McCain said.
The farce, to me, is that they want it both ways. They want an anti-war President in office - don't care what his voting record for our military/defense has been - but also want to use his 'honorable' service of 4 months - while again discounting/ignoring his actions in regards to the war when he came home. Ignoring that the communists honored kerry for helping them defeat our own country.
posted on August 6, 2004 08:59:04 AM new
Linda thinks that some of the ‘left’ are trying to “silence those who have the right to say whatever they wish to say.”
Funny about that; but the rest of the world hears that non supporters aren’t even permitted to go into some of Bush’s propaganda parades, others have been kicked out for wearing anti-Bush badges, and others have been compelled to sign consent forms for their names to be used in pro-Bush propaganda in order to be let in.
“Silence”???????
posted on August 6, 2004 09:01:10 AM new
I wish in instead of Sen. McCain coming out and saying that about John Kerry that he had researched it and given some evidence to repute the Vietnam Vets for Truth. How many vets could be wrong? It just doesn't add up. John Kerry's vets are for him but the truth vets majority say is untrue. These vets that are going around with Kerry are they getting paid? and if so who is paying them. Maybe Sen. McCain has to look into that also. If Kerry is so honorable why didn't Sen. McCain take the VP job? I feel there are to many questions and no sound answers.
I understand how Sen. McCain feels as I imagine he put in a very horrible & terrible 5 years. It wasn't a pretty site over there.
[ edited by Bear1949 on Aug 5, 2004 03:23 PM ]