posted on September 29, 2004 05:55:28 AM
The ground troops in the Iraq are mostly kids from middle and working class families. These troops fight the war. The middle class and poor die or become wounded for the rich.
The rich or connected families get deferment after deferment for their kids. Just look at Bush/Cheney and most of Bush's cabinet.
The war in Iraq would end almost overnight if America brought back the draft with no deferments of any kind for the rich or connected families.
When kids from rich connected families start taking bullets and dieing like our middle class and poor kids do. This unnecessary and bad Iraq war would end very quickly.
If America needs to fight a war lets fight it with all not just the middle class and poor.
posted on September 29, 2004 09:47:13 AM
etexbill, Guys like you are the people that support communist countries not me.
Do you remember Viet Nam and all the fine American troops we lost there? Thousands upon thousands of fine American lives were lost in Viet Nam. Back then America was told the reason for going to war in Viet Nam was to stop the spread of Communism.
Today guys like you that support Bush/Cheney are the ones that are supporting communism. If you support Bush you also support the greedy republican backed Corporations that outsource jobs and buy non-American products from communist countries.
etexbill just like your failed leaders you don't know what you are saying.
posted on September 29, 2004 11:40:40 AM
America's military did not lose the war in Viet Nam. The person most responsible for America's withdrawal is Walter Cronkite. when he announced that Tet of "68" was a defeat for American troops. This perceived loss, created by the media, fueled the anti war protesters, leading to influencing the uninformed American public, creating the perceived idea America was losing the war.
Fact is the Tet offensive of "68" was a overwhelming loss for the communists who suffered a 90% casualty rate. The S Vietnamese communists never recovered from the loss of key leaders.
Viet Nam was lost by the liberal media and the liberal indecisive demo presidency of LBJ.
Pulling out of Iraq now would be a disaster on the war on terrorism. At this point the terrorists are massing to one place in an attempt to expell troops from America, England, Australia, Korean and a dozen other countries. A better a opportunity to rid the world of terrorism has never presented itself.
There are two tactical and one strategic reason WHY the terrorists are in Iraq.
The tactical reasons are: 1) That's where the infidel is; and 2) it keeps their fanatic base motivated. The strategic reason is: This is a holding action, designed to create and perpetrate the impression of a "quagmire", which suits their long-term goal of attempting to demoralize our military and stoking the liberal media feeding frenzy.
You have to realize that the CULTURE in the mid-east is USED to thinking in terms of wars lasting HUNDREDS of years. This is a fundimental distinction from the way Americans view warfare. We generally crush the enemy in a few weeks/months/years and then spend a couple of decades rebuilding them after they are thoroughly whipped.
By fighting terrorism in Iraq, the risk of fighting terrorisn on American soil is minimized.
What about that do you libs fail to comprehend. Hey, hey Ho, ho Kerry - sign the 1-8-0
"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The person who has nothing for which he is willing
to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
--John Stuart Mill
posted on September 29, 2004 11:49:52 AMAmerica's military did not lose the war in Viet Nam. The person most responsible for America's withdrawal is Walter Cronkite.
What a crock. But the American military did lose the war in this sense- it was fighting a war it could never win.
We are in the same position in Iraq. There is no way to win, and winning can not be defined in the Iraq situation.
The parallels to Vietnam are amazing.
Blind leadership by Bush.
Proping up creeps like Cilabi and Allawi.
Bush telling the people all is going well and we're making great progress.
Blaming the media for reporting the truth.
Fighting and dying for a people who do not want us there and do not want Western style democracy.
Spending billions with no result.
OVER HALF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE THINK IRAQ IS A MISTAKE AND NOT WORTH IT.
posted on September 29, 2004 12:08:34 PM
Excellent statement, bear. But they don't see it. They still won't acknowledge that our VN communist enemies gave those like them credit for helping to defeat America. Same thing now....they're doing all they can to encourage our enemies they have a good chance of winning. Maybe kerry will again be rewarded/honored by the communists we fought in VN for his help in letting the terrorist win this war.
As for the success of Kerry's anti-democracy protests and his leadership of the VVAW and association with Fonda's Winter Soldier Investigation, General Vo Nguyen Giap, Vietnam's most decorated military leader, wrote in retrospect that if not for the disunity created by such stateside protesters, Hanoi would have ultimately surrendered.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The Constitution's Fourteenth Amendment, Section 3, which states, "No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President ... having previously taken an oath ... to support the Constitution of the United States, [who has] engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Guard against the impostures of pretended patriotism." --George Washington
posted on September 29, 2004 12:10:43 PMAs for the success of Kerry's anti-democracy protests and his leadership of the VVAW and association with Fonda's Winter Soldier Investigation, ****General Vo Nguyen Giap, Vietnam's most decorated military leader, wrote in retrospect that if not for the disunity created by such stateside protesters, Hanoi would have ultimately surrendered****.
posted on September 29, 2004 02:15:05 PM
Bear1949 and Linda_K, Once again American was told we were at war in Viet Nam to stop the spread of Communism. It doesn't really matter how we lost the Viet Nam war the fact remains we lost it. Thousands upon thousands of young American lives were lost in Viet Nam. For what???? Looks to me like all those lives were lost for nothing. Now that greedy republican backed corporations are big buddies with communist countries for their cheap labor. Both of you are big supporters of the bad Viet Nam war you should have learned a lession about bad wars then but you didn't. We didn't win Viet Nam because of bad government leaders. Just like the bad government leaders we have now fighting another bad war. Both of you support globalization and both are supporters of greedy republican backed corporations. So both of you are supporting communism not me.
I also feel the lost American lives in Iraq will turn out to be another waste. We bought oil from Saddam's Iraq and we will continual to buy oil from Iraq no matter who is running the country. No matter if its a democracy or not we will buy their oil.
I don't support communism. Neither of you can say I have said anything but in support of the middle and working class people of this country.
This post was about how the poor and working class kids are taking bullets in Iraq for the rich families. The poor fight the American wars while the rich and connected get deferment after deferment after deferment for their kids. EXAMPLE just look at the war records of Bush/Cheney and their cabinet. The day the rich and connected kids start taking bullets in Iraq is the day the war will begin to end.
So once again over and over and over again. All you misguided Bush supporters with your clouded minds and forked tongues can do is, try to muddy the waters in defense of your failed leaders Bush/Cheney.
[ edited by bigpeepa on Sep 29, 2004 02:27 PM ]
posted on September 29, 2004 02:17:18 PMWhat a crock. But the American military did lose the war in this sense- it was fighting a war it could never win.
Typical lib psycho hyper babble.
The American military had the capability to successfully conclude the Viet War, but again Liberal Demo politic ts prevented it. The mining of Haiphong harbor would have prevented resupply by sea from Russia. Unlimited bombing of Hanoi would have destroyed the communist infrastructure and the will to conquire S Vietnam.
Now you libs are attempting to convey the same loser attitude you had about Vietnam to Iraq. The military capability is there. I see more and more comments from those fighting in Iraq and Afganistan, wanting to know why more of America isn't supporting their actions. I see more questions asking why they are not being allowed to use the force necessary to accomplist their task. I have read comments from 60 year old Viet Vets currently serving in National Guard units flying helo's in Iraq asking when they will be allowed to fight the war on terrorism in a manner it deserves, knowing they have the means to end the conflict.
The war in Iraq has accelerated those to the front that already had terrorist tendencies.
Personally, I think having them out of their hole now and having them in our military's sights is better than not knowing who or where they are. By going into Iraq, we've created more DEAD terrorists.
But again you libs apprear to prefer to fight terrorism on our home soil risking mass American casulities rather that let them die outside our borders. If you hamper the war effort of one side, you automatically help out that of the other. Nor is there any real way of remaining outside such a war as the present one. In practice, he that is not with me is against me. Thus by objecting to our presence in Iraq you are effectively aiding the enemy.
Hey, hey Ho, ho Kerry - sign the 1-8-0
"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The person who has nothing for which he is willing
to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
--John Stuart Mill
posted on September 29, 2004 02:39:43 PM
bigpeepa - Your posts lack any sense at all.
Do you have proof that ONLY republican owned corporations are benefiting from having their businesses in another countries...or do you have proof that NO democrats like kerry's wife have corporations/businesses in other countries to take advantage of their cheap labor in order to get rich? NO..of course you don't. But that doesn't keep you from sprouting all your nonsense.
More totally dilusional statements from you.
This post was about how the poor and working class kids are taking bullets in Iraq for the rich families.
IF you know what you were talking about you'd know this is the MOST education Armed Forces we've ever had. But you don't know what you're talking about so you speak nonsense.
The poor fight the American wars while the rich and connected get deferment after deferment after deferment for their kids.
Again....utter nonsense. Wake up, bigpeepa, we're 35 years down the road and there ARE NO DEFERMENTS for ANYONE....That was eliminated 30 years ago. And it would take an act of Congress to reinstate the draft. President Bush has said he's not going to reinstate the draft. kerry has said the same thing.
What we currently have is a full [b]volunteer Armed Force[/b].
It's the democrats that have tried to pass a bill to reinstate the draft....and idiots like yourself agree with 13 of our Congressmen. Yea, you're a republican alright. Who do you think you're fooling? Not me.
posted on September 29, 2004 02:45:26 PM
And, FYI, a much larger percentage of men who served in VN volunteered. Can you believe that? There actually were men who volunteered and weren't FORCED to serve. Brave young men who volunteered to serve their country. Not like so many of the far-left-leaning dems who would never be brave enough to do so - heck no...they won't even support a war their country felt was necessary. one kerry, who they're going to vote for did TOO!! No, they sit and whine about all that's wrong with our country...past, present and most likely will continue in the future when President Bush is re-elected by those with some brains to see he has our Nations best interests at heart.
posted on September 29, 2004 02:51:51 PM
Bear1949, America will be able to fight the terrorist and defeat the terrorist when John Kerry is elected. Unlike the chicken livers Bush/Cheney and Bush's cabinet that by your own words are making a mess of the Iraq war by not being strong enough. John Kerry is a tough guy. John Kerry has the balls to stand up to anyone and anything even his government when that government was wrong. John Kerry will focus on the terrorist and beat them. John Kerry fought in a war while your failed leaders ducked out. If you really want to win this bad Iraq war then elect John Kerry. Otherwise just go back to your bunker and don't come out until you take some smart pills to clear your clouded mind.
posted on September 29, 2004 02:59:10 PM
Peepa again you run your mouth with knowing the facts:
Kerry effective on terrorism. What a joke, Even he can't make his mind up about keeping the troops in Iraq or removing them. Letting the IN send in more troops or not.
kerry never SERVED in Vietman, he visited the country for 16 weeks. 4 of those weeks were in training. He was incountry just long enough to PLAY the system to give the appearance of being a highly decorated vet as a stepping stone to a unremarkable political career.
kerry turned traitor, aided and abetted the enemy, accused all true American patriots of being war criminals by using false and unsubstanciated testamony of bogus vets. kerrys fit rep will come back to haunt him yet, watch my words, it will be proven he is as the book title indicates, "Unfit for Command"
Current American troops made a informed decision about enlisting, You cannot claim they came from poor or uneducated family's anymore than that lame arguement was made about Vietnam.
-------
V'nam Casualties By Volunteer or Drafted, Enlisted
It may come as a surprise to some that 63.3% of all V'nam enlisted casualties were volunteer. If ofcrs are added then almost 70% of those who died in V'nam were volunteers. Of course, the Marine, Navy & Air Corps enlisted personnel were, with the exception of a small percentage of USMC, all volunteer & as it turned out almost 50% of Army enlisted casualties were also volunteer.
Of all enlisted men who died in V'nam, blacks made up 14.1% of the total. This came at a time when they made up 11.0% of the young male population nationwide. If we add officer casualties to enlisted then the black percentage is reduced to 12.5% of all casualties.
Of the 7262 blacks who died, 6, 955 or 96% were Army and Marine enlisted men. The combination of our selective service policies, our AFQT testing of both drafted and volunteers, the need for skilled enlisted men in many areas of the armed forces, all conspired to assign blacks in greater numbers to the combat units of the Army and Marine Corps. Early in the war, when blacks made up about 11.0% of our V'nam force, black casualties soared to over 20% of the total (1965, 1966). Black leaders protested and Pres Johnson ordered that black participation should be cut back in the combat units. As a result, the black casualty rate was cut to 11.5% by 1969.
http://members.aol.com/warlibrary/vwc17.htm
-------------
Most of the young Amer enlisted men who served in V'nam were not college prospects at the time they entered the service. Those who could have qualified for college probably did not have the funds or motivation. Many of the 17- 18 year olds were simply late in maturing, they were struggling through or dropping out of high school; or, if high school graduates were testing poorly for college entrance. Yet, as it turned out, the percentage of V'nam vets who applied for the GI Bill was higher than either WW2 or Korea.
CLASS and CASUALTIES
It would be wise to dispel the widely held notion that the poor served and died in V'nam while the rich stayed home. A more precise equation would be that the college bound stay ed home while the non-college bound served and died. The idea that our V'nam enlisted dead were made up largely of society's poverty stricken misfits is a terrible slander to their memory and to the solid middle class and working class families of this country who provided the vast majority of our casualties. Certainly some who died came from poor and broken families in the urban ghettos and barrios, or were from dirt-poor farm homes in the South and MidWest. and more's the pity because many of them were trying to escape and didn't make it.
-------
Again peepa your ignorance is surpassed only by your stupidity.
Hey, hey Ho, ho Kerry - sign the 1-8-0
"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
--John Stuart Mill
[ edited by Bear1949 on Sep 29, 2004 03:18 PM ]
[ edited by Bear1949 on Sep 29, 2004 03:32 PM ]
posted on September 29, 2004 06:35:50 PM
Linda_K and Bear, My post was about ending the Iraq war by drafting without deferments the rich and connected kids along with the poor and middle class kids. The day the rich and connected kids start taking bullets is the day the war will start to end.
If you guys don't believe that its the poor and middle class kids fighting in Iraq. Than you both are very delusional and need help.
If you guys don't believe that the troops that were lost in Viet Nam was a waste. Given the fact that now American companies are now big friends with the Communist countries because of cheap labor. Than you both are very delusional and need help.
If you don't believe that most of the American companies that do business with Communist countries, are not run by and with support of republicans. Than you both are very delusional and need help.
If you don't believe that the U.S. bought oil from Saddam's Iraq and the U.S. will continual to buy oil from Iraq. No matter who is running Iraq and what form of government Iraq has. Than you both are very delusional and need help.
If you guys don't believe that John Kerry fought in Viet Nam while Bush/Cheney and most of their cabinet ducked out. Than you both are very delusional and need help.
If you guys believe that your posts are the only posts that people believe. Than you both are very dilusional and need help.
posted on September 29, 2004 07:12:08 PM
Poor peepa another recruit to the liberal lemmings express. Keep talking and you might convince one person, yourself.
Hey, hey Ho, ho Kerry - sign the 1-8-0
"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The person who has nothing for which he is willing
to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
--John Stuart Mill
posted on September 29, 2004 08:09:26 PM
peepa, you do know that you have to be mentally competent to cast a vote don't you? better get down to what ever doctor you visit for a check up...
you do know this is 2004?
do you know who is running for president?
Kennedy got killed remember?
do you know where your socks are?
your wife's name?
Where the liquor store is? (good a reason as any for his posts)
Alzheimers is such a terrible thing and I do sympathize with you peepa...
posted on September 29, 2004 08:55:37 PM
Oh and peepa one other thing about you comment of deferments. There ain't none in todays military, No draft or the possibility of one equates to no deferments to anyone What don't you comprehend about a ALL VOLUNTEER military.
PS kerry never fought in Vietnam, he was on a 14 week holiday to promote himself for political office, hoping to be another John Kennedy.
Hey, hey Ho, ho Kerry - sign the 1-8-0
"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The person who has nothing for which he is willing
to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
--John Stuart Mill
posted on September 29, 2004 10:35:48 PM
See, bear, even with proven FACTS he remains in total denial.
Another thing, since bpp mentioned doing business with communist countries.
Here's just ONE reason the VN POW/MIAs and their families are AGAINST kerry becoming our President - he SOLD them out in order to get a business deal for his cousin. Yea...great CIC he'd make. puke
Families of POW/MIA Against kerryLet their voices be heard so all can learn what kind of a man kerry really was and still is. Hopefully some can learn that an old dog can't change it's colors....no matter how hard he tries. kerry was a traitor then....and he lacks the conviction and character needed to be our CIC now:
http://www.powmiafamiliesagainstjohnkerry.com/statement.htm
~~~~~~~~
As for the success of Kerry's anti-democracy protests and his leadership of the VVAW and association with Fonda's Winter Soldier Investigation, General Vo Nguyen Giap, Vietnam's most decorated military leader, wrote in retrospect that if not for the disunity created by such stateside protesters, Hanoi would have ultimately surrendered. Thank you kerry and fonda. not
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Constitution's Fourteenth Amendment, Section 3, which states, "No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President ... having previously taken an oath ... to support the Constitution of the United States, [who has] engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Guard against the impostures of pretended patriotism." --George Washington
posted on September 29, 2004 11:10:03 PM
Great posts Bear, your thoughts on the war in Iraq as far as the tactical and strategic reasons are right on the button.
Also your statements; A better opportunity to rid the world of terrorism has never presented itself
This gives us the opportunity to kill a helll of alot of them in a military fight.
and
By fighting terrorism in Iraq, the risk of fighting terrorisn on American soil is minimized.
Everyone, even the liberals do not want to see us fighting them on our own soil. It's sad though that they can't or won't agree with your statement. I think it must be because they would then be in agreement with us and god forbid that they should do that.
[ edited by yellowstone on Sep 29, 2004 11:14 PM ]
posted on September 29, 2004 11:28:52 PMGreat posts Bear, your thoughts on the war in Iraq as far as the tactical and strategic reasons are right on the button.
Bear's thoughts? Bear copied and pasted almost all of the above. He is not that articulate.
posted on September 30, 2004 09:05:58 AM
Well whatever, then thanks for posting it Bear, whatever way you obtained the information. it was a good, no a great read.
<sticking my tongue out at Kiara>
posted on September 30, 2004 12:33:53 PM
O.K. Linda_K, Bear1949, twelvetoes, below is part of my original post. I have reposted it to show anyone who takes the time to read your replies what liars and word twisters you people are. When openly exposed like I am doing now. It should show everyone just what kind of people Linda_K, Bear1949, and tewlvepoles really are.
Please see words from my original post below.
The war in Iraq would end almost overnight if America brought back the draft with no deferments of any kind for the rich or connected families.
When kids from rich connected families start taking bullets and dieing like our middle class and poor kids do. This unnecessary and bad Iraq war would end very quickly.
If America needs to fight a war lets fight it with all not just the middle class and poor.
Now Linda_K, Bear1949, and twelvepoles, I invite you all to show your true colors with more of your replies to the above words from my original post. LOL I can't wait to read more of your lies and word twisting. replies.
posted on September 30, 2004 01:12:17 PM
Bigpeepa, when linda's wrong she always runs and hides....she's right, don't hold your breath waiting for an intelligent reply from her.
posted on September 30, 2004 03:07:09 PM
crowfarm, you are so right about Linda. Almost everyone on this board has exposed her again and again for the liar and word twister she is. It doesn't seem to slow her down one bit she just goes on and on with the lies and twisted words. She must be living in a personal hell. I do pity her.
I kind of understand her defenders bear and twelvetoes to me they just have tunnel vision and are very uninformed about World events. Linda_K is a different story. I speak my mind and don't always chose the kindest words while doing so but I am not a mean person. I have decided I don't want to interact with Linda_K any longer for fear she may be truly unstable and suffering.
posted on September 30, 2004 04:55:53 PM
Bigpeepa, forget linduh(could a human BE so BORING?).....check out Maggie's Wanna have fun? thread...you're mentioned!
posted on October 1, 2004 10:16:43 AMBear's thoughts? Bear copied and pasted almost all of the above. He is not that articulate
Really? Hey, hey Ho, ho Kerry - sign the 1-8-0
"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The person who has nothing for which he is willing
to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
--John Stuart Mill
