posted on October 2, 2004 04:50:54 PM
Oct 2, 6:16 PM EDT
RICHMOND, Va. (AP) -- The director of student life at Richmond's Baptist Theological Seminary has resigned, saying he could not enforce a policy that excludes practicing homosexuals, including those in committed relationships.
"I couldn't stay at the seminary and support a policy I didn't agree with and wouldn't comply with," the Rev. Warren Hammonds said in an interview published Saturday in the Richmond Times-Dispatch. "I would have had to turn in homosexuals or lie about it. I couldn't do either and live with myself."
"It was a hard decision," Hammonds said Saturday of his decision to resign from the job he had held for seven years. "I felt I was walking way from something that was very important to me."
The seminary was established in 1989 by a vote of the Southern Baptist Alliance, now the Alliance of Baptists. Hammonds said several hundred seminarians are enrolled.
The seminary code states: "Sexual promiscuity, whether homosexual or heterosexual, is not an acceptable lifestyle for any member of the seminary community." Failure to report a violation "breaches the code."
Hammonds is the only person to resign over the Code of Ethics policy and no students have left because of it, according to Seminary President Thomas H. Graves.
Hammonds said the policy put him in an uncomfortable position.
"Some students who come to seminary are questioning or confused about their sexuality. As a pastoral person, those students may have come out to me," Hammonds said
.............................................
It seems that the church is changing on a daily basis.
posted on October 2, 2004 04:56:02 PM
Good, don't let the door hit ya where the good Lord split ya...
Gee yeager... you think there aren't churches that accept the deviant behavior of homosexuality? Of course there are... many churches have been established because they don't agree about one thing or another...
They are enablers... nothing more... they also don't help with other problems either... they are only for their congregation nothing more.
posted on October 2, 2004 05:00:34 PM
This thread leaves me to ask a question to twelve, in the fact that he's continually stated that homosexuality is a choice.
This seminary states it has policy that excludes practicing homosexuals. So if you are a gay man and practice gay sex, then you aren't allowed to attend there.
So here is the question.
If you are a gay man and don't practice gay sex, then how are you a gay man?
I am sure that you will refuse, or won't be able to a clear, concise answer on this.
Bigots are miserable people. Prevent Bigotry through Education.
posted on October 2, 2004 05:34:53 PM
Nobody has place any restrictions on your ability to answer anything. This is a classic example of you being painted into a corner and not being able to give a reasonable answer to a reasonable question.
I rest my point!
Bigots are miserable people. Prevent Bigotry through Education.
posted on October 2, 2004 05:45:12 PM
I thought that you could defend your every position here on these boards. Now when confronted with this, you decline to step up to the plate.
Your true self shows up here again.
Bigots are miserable people. Prevent Bigotry through Education.
posted on October 2, 2004 06:33:36 PM
Under this game you seem to be playing, what position do I need to defend?
You have not asked a question that allows me to answer, you have already discounted any answer I give because you don't like my answers and try to deride them... you refuse to look into the mirror and see the bigot standing there, why is that?
posted on October 2, 2004 07:20:39 PM
"If you are a gay man and don't practice gay sex, then how are you a gay man? "
I don't see any paradox here. I'm a straight man, and I'm not getting any sex either. I guess that means I'm not currently practicing straight sex. That certainly doesn't make me non-straight.
You can CHOOSE to be straight, or you can CHOOSE to be gay. Whether or not you are "practicing" has nothing to do with it.
HOWEVER, it also says "Sexual promiscuity, whether homosexual or heterosexual, is not an acceptable lifestyle" So really homosexuality is not the issue in this case. It's having sex outside of marriage (the Seminary's definition of "promiscuous" that is the issue. And since homosexuals cannot be married by definition, they must be sexually promiscuous. BUT... If they aren't actually having gay sex, then they don't fall under that term.
If this seminary is actually using these definitions, then they may have left a vague legal door open. IF there are straight seminarians who are having sex outside of marriage, then they need to be expelled too. Otherwise, they are wide open to discriminatory lawsuits. If the leaders of the seminary aren't willing to enforce their own rule, then they should redefine it.
The wording of the code should simply ban homosexuals, and leave the "promiscuous" wording out of it.
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We do not stop playing because we grow old. We grow old because we stop playing -- Anonymous
posted on October 2, 2004 08:11:07 PMAnd since homosexuals cannot be married by definition, they must be sexually promiscuous. BUT... If they aren't actually having gay sex, then they don't fall under that term.
What is your definition of promiscuous - having sex with more than one partner.
So people in long term relationships whether gay or straight and are not married are promiscuous??
I have been with my partner for six years, does that make me promiscuous. I also know a straight couple that has been together for 12 years but are not married, are they promiscuous??
DICK CHENEY SUPPORTS MY RELATIONSHIP: People ought to be free to enter into any kind of relationship they want to
Let's have a BBQ, Texas style, ROAST BUSH
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YOU CAN'T HAVE BULLSH** WITH OUT BUSH.
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posted on October 2, 2004 08:11:27 PM
replay says,
I guess that means I'm not currently practicing straight sex. That certainly doesn't make me non-straight.
Exactly, if you are straight and not practicing straight sex, then you are still straight.
On the other hand, if a gay man is not practicing gay sex, then he is still gay. What makes him gay is the question.
You can CHOOSE to be straight, or you can CHOOSE to be gay.
How is it that you know that as a factual matter for all of the population? Or is it just a personal thought? It's a pretty broad statement at the very least.
Bigots are miserable people. Prevent Bigotry through Education.
posted on October 3, 2004 06:01:34 AM
"What is your definition of promiscuous?"
I'm pretty sure the CHURCH's definition is anyone having sex outside of marriage. Even ONCE qualifies. The secular definition usually means a bunch of times with multiple partners, but I believe the Church's definition is a lot stricter.
"You can CHOOSE to be straight, or you can CHOOSE to be gay.
How is it that you know that as a factual matter for all of the population?"
Because it has never been proven otherwise. There is NO believable evidence that shows any genetic linkage. With a few incredibly rare birth-defect exceptions, people are born male and female. What you choose to do with your body parts is up to you.
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We do not stop playing because we grow old. We grow old because we stop playing -- Anonymous
posted on October 3, 2004 06:15:10 AM
replay, you are correct there is not any scientific link to a person being homosexual, other than CHOICE...some homosexual myths would lead you to believe that is maybe someting psycho-sematic, however if that was the case, it could be "cured", they also don't want to hear that... but they cannot link it scientifically to anything other than choice.
AIN'T LIFE GRAND...
Re-Elect President Bush... the only true choice.
[ edited by Twelvepole on Oct 3, 2004 06:21 AM ]
posted on October 3, 2004 06:42:31 AMhowever if that was the case, it could be "cured",
If you think "it could be cured", don't you think some one would have found the cure in the past 2 centuries??? DA, there is no cure because it is not an illness or disease and because you can't cure something in which this is no cure for.
DICK CHENEY SUPPORTS MY RELATIONSHIP: People ought to be free to enter into any kind of relationship they want to
Let's have a BBQ, Texas style, ROAST BUSH
------------------------------
YOU CAN'T HAVE BULLSH** WITH OUT BUSH.
------------------------------
posted on October 3, 2004 07:37:26 AMYou can CHOOSE to be straight, or you can CHOOSE to be gay.
That's a load of BS. I didn't choose to be straight and no matter how hard I may try, I could not be gay. And no one would choose to be gay considering the social consequences.
There are thousands of prisoners that practice gay sex but aren't gay.
posted on October 3, 2004 08:56:53 AM
Your question has no basis of merit, I have stated time and again everyone is born straight... if is homosexuals that choose a different lifestyle.
It is funny that you keep asking questions that have been answered. Cannot think of anything new? I admit my stance has not and will not change... are you willing to admit that?
AIN'T LIFE GRAND...
Re-Elect President Bush... the only true choice.
[ edited by Twelvepole on Oct 3, 2004 08:59 AM ]
posted on October 3, 2004 09:25:35 AMYour question has no basis of merit, I have stated time and again everyone is born straight... if is homosexuals that choose a different lifestyle.
That doesn't make any sense. You just proved that people are born with their sexual preference if you are saying being a born straight. If your claim is true that people are born straight and then choose to be gay, where is the scientific proof to back up your claim.
If your "theory" is true then what do you say about gay men who have never had sex with women. If they are "born straight" the natural tendency would be to have sex with women before having sex with men. If they have never had sex with women then how can they make a choice to know which one they like better.
You can not admit that people are born both with hetrosexual and homosexual genes and the dominant gene develops - why because then that does not support your view?
I will never admit you are right because every thing you have said has no scientific basis. You just can't admit people are different than you.
DICK CHENEY SUPPORTS MY RELATIONSHIP: People ought to be free to enter into any kind of relationship they want to
Let's have a BBQ, Texas style, ROAST BUSH
------------------------------
YOU CAN'T HAVE BULLSH** WITH OUT BUSH.
------------------------------
posted on October 3, 2004 09:35:07 AM
"sexual preference if you are saying being a born straight."
YOU used the term sexual PREFERENCE. A preference implies a choice.
"If your claim is true that people are born straight and then choose to be gay, where is the scientific proof to back up your claim. "
It's called Anatomy 101. Look at the naked pictures. There's no need for a genetic study when the answer is right in front of your eyes!
People are born with certain sex organs. You can choose to have sex with the oppostie sex, the same sex, with farm animals, children, plastic toys, or not at all.
It's still a choice.
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We do not stop playing because we grow old. We grow old because we stop playing -- Anonymous
posted on October 3, 2004 09:57:28 AM
Well you beat me to it replay...
also would like to add that logansdad you cannot back up your opinion with scientific proof... so why would you expect me to, scientists do not agree on this subject... Personally I believe it is psychological... but then again you will drag the APA into this, they may just want to pass this by because they know that homosexuals do not want to be "cured"...
posted on October 3, 2004 12:27:33 PM
There's more scientific "proof" that homosexuality is caused by a certain protein that's released by the mother after conception with each subsequent son born. A 2nd or 3rd son is more likely to be gay than the first.
P.S. Twelve, when did you choose to dislike beets?
posted on October 3, 2004 12:52:06 PM
Speaking of the APA [sigh] I guess nobody reads the links I work so hard to provide.
On the link I posted in the amendment thread it states, in part:
[i]The video also includes remarks from 2 psychologists -- Dr. Warren Throckmorton of Grove City College (the video's producer) and Dr. Mark Yarhouse of Regent University -- who challenge the popular misconception that homosexuality is hardwired.
They do so by citing a seemingly unlikely source -- an American Psychiatric Association (APA) fact sheet on sexual orientation:
Some people believe that sexual orientation is innate and fixed; however, sexual orientation develops across a person's lifetime... To date, there are no replicated scientific studies supporting any specific biological etiology (meaning cause), of homosexuality....
Similarly, no specific psychosocial (or life circumstances) or family dynamics cause for homosexuality has been identified.
Declaring that the cause of homosexuality is therefore "something of a scientific mystery," Throckmorton contends that "homosexual attractions are caused by different factors for different people."
Yarhouse gets more specific, crediting a "weighted interaction" between genetics, prenatal hormonal mechanisms, parent-child relationships, childhood sexual abuse, and disinhibition about sexual relationships.
He also details five stages that mark the emergence of a gay identity and argues that experiences of same-sex attraction do not mean a person is gay.
These somewhat academic explanations are interspersed with comments from the five ex-gays portrayed, whose experiences illustrate the points made.
To make its primary point -- that gays can change -- the video then adds psychiatrist Robert Spitzer of Columbia University to the mix.
Dr. Spitzer, who is well known as one who originally got homosexuality removed from the APA's list of mental disorders in 1973, has since conducted research convincing him that people can change from gay to straight -- "more than how they view themselves, but in their fantasy and their arousal."
posted on October 3, 2004 01:58:51 PM
the American Medical Association, American Psychological Association and American Psychiatric Association. The AMA, in a 1994 report, calls for “a non-judgmental recognition of sexual orientation.” The American Psychological Association and American Psychiatric Association state that sexual orientation is not a choice, is largely determined by biological factors and is most likely determined at or before birth. According to the APA: “The research on homosexuality is very clear. Homosexuality is neither mental illness nor moral depravity. ... Nor is homosexuality a matter of individual choice. Research suggests that the homosexual orientation is in place very early in the life cycle, possibly even before birth. It is found in about 10 percent of the population, a figure which is surprisingly constant across cultures, irrespective of the different moral values and standards of a particular culture. Contrary to what some imply, the incidence of homosexuality in a population does not appear to change with new moral codes or social mores.”
Is homosexuality a mental illness or emotional problem?
No. Psychologists, psychiatrists and other mental health professionals agree that homosexuality is not an illness, mental disorder or emotional problem. Much objective scientific research over the past 35 years shows us that homosexual orientation, in and of itself, is not associated with emotional of social problems.
Homosexuality was thought to be a mental illness in the past because mental health professionals and society had biased information about homosexuality since most studies only involved lesbians and gay men in therapy. when researchers examined data about gay people who were not in therapy, the idea that homosexuality was a mental illness was found to be untrue.
In 1973 the American Psychiatric Association confirmed the importance of the new research by removing the term 'homosexuality' from the official manual that list all mental and emotional disorders. In 1975 the American Psychological Association passed a resolution supporting this action. Both associations urge all mental health professionals to help dispel the stigma of mental illness that some people still associate with homosexual orientation. Since original declassification of homosexuality as a mental disorder, this decision has subsequently been reaffirmed by additional research findings and both associations.
Can therapy change sexual orientation?
No. Even though homosexual orientation is not a mental illness and there is no scientific reason to attempt conversion of lesbians or gays to heterosexual orientation, some individuals may seek to change their own sexual orientation or that of another individual (for example, parents seeking therapy for their child). Some therapists who undertake this kind of therapy report that they have changed their client's sexual orientation (from homosexual to heterosexual) in treatment. Close scrutiny of their reports indicates several factors that cast doubt: many of the claims come from organizations with an ideological perspective on sexual orientation, rather than from mental health researchers; the treatments and their outcomes are poorly documented; and the length of time that clients are followed up after the treatment is too short.
In 1990, the American Psychological Association stated that scientific evidence does not show that conversion therapy works and that it can do more harm than good. Changing one's sexual orientation is not simply a matter of changing one's sexual behavior. It would require altering one's emotional, romantic and sexual feelings and restructuring one's self-concept and social identity. Although some mental health providers do attempt sexual orientation conversion, others question the ethics of trying to alter through therapy a trait that is not a disorder and that is extremely important to an individual's identity.
Not all gays and lesbians who seek therapy want to change their sexual orientation. Gays and lesbians may seek counseling for any of the same reasons as anyone else. In addition, they may seed psychological help to 'come out' or to deal with prejudice, discrimination and violence.
To make its primary point--that gays can change--the video then adds psychiatrist Robert Spitzer of Columbia University to the mix. Dr. Spitzer, who is well known as one who originally got homosexuality removed from the APA's list of mental disorders in 1973, has since conducted research convincing him that people can change from gay to straight -- "more than how they view themselves, but in their fantasy and their arousal."
Here is an article about the study conducted by Dr. Spitzer:
A new report claiming that therapy could "cure" gays and lesbians and make them straight has come under fire from both scientists and gay rights groups.
The research, published in the well-respected Archives of Sexual Behaviour journal, claims that of the gay people who underwent "reparative therapy", 78% of men and 95% of women turned straight.
According to author Professor Robert Sptizer, the study "questions the politically correct view that once you're gay, that's it and suggests that there is more flexibility than many people have assumed"
But the study has been attacked by other researchers, who claim that the information was gathered from "patients" that were part of ex-gay ministries and reparation organisations in America.
Speaking to today's Guardian, a specialist in sexual orientation and lecturer at the University of East London Dr Qazi Rahman criticised the report and discredited the way the information was gathered.
"My main concern is the method," he told the paper.
"Spitzer relied on self-reports from a select sample of individuals. They were not your average gay man or lesbian.
Additionally, a member of the International Academy of Sex Research, a supporter of the journal, resigned yesterday offer its decision to publish the report.
Professor Sptizer is already known to the gay world, albeit in a different light. He was central to the American Psychiatric Association's decision to remove homosexuality from its list of mental disorders in 1973.
DICK CHENEY SUPPORTS MY RELATIONSHIP: People ought to be free to enter into any kind of relationship they want to
Let's have a BBQ, Texas style, ROAST BUSH
------------------------------
YOU CAN'T HAVE BULLSH** WITH OUT BUSH.
------------------------------
[ edited by logansdad on Oct 3, 2004 02:00 PM ]
posted on October 3, 2004 02:18:16 PM
Can't deny what the APA and "Dr. Spitzer, who is well known as one who originally got homosexuality removed from the APA's list of mental disorders in 1973, has since conducted research convincing him that people can change from gay to straight -- "more than how they view themselves, but in their fantasy and their arousal." says.
posted on October 3, 2004 02:56:09 PM
From what I read, they just don't want to deal with the therapy that could be given, but want to deride those that have performed the therapy to correct a homosexuals choice and put them back on the straight path.
So now kraft are you comparing homosexuality to vegatables? We know they are fruits...
posted on October 3, 2004 05:20:27 PM
Yeah Linda you can't deny that the APA says:
The American Psychological Association and American Psychiatric Association state that sexual orientation is not a choice, is largely determined by biological factors and is most likely determined at or before birth. According to the APA: “The research on homosexuality is very clear. Homosexuality is neither mental illness nor moral depravity. ... Nor is homosexuality a matter of individual choice. Research suggests that the homosexual orientation is in place very early in the life cycle, possibly even before birth.
DICK CHENEY SUPPORTS MY RELATIONSHIP: People ought to be free to enter into any kind of relationship they want to
Let's have a BBQ, Texas style, ROAST BUSH
------------------------------
YOU CAN'T HAVE BULLSH** WITH OUT BUSH.
------------------------------
posted on October 3, 2004 05:30:21 PM
I wish they would find a homosexual gene... then I would support abortions... a good family could abort a child that would be "born" homosexual...but until there is scientific proof... it is a choice...
Wonder how many of you homosexuals choose to be homosexual after experiencing a feminazi for a mate?
AIN'T LIFE GRAND... The only miserable bigot is the one who will not admit it.
Re-Elect President Bush... the only true choice.
[ edited by Twelvepole on Oct 5, 2004 05:29 AM ]