posted on October 3, 2004 01:46:36 PM
October 03, 2004
John Kerry Violated Debate Rules (UPDATED with Hilarious WaPo Columnist Prediction)
*** INDC Journal and Daily Recycler Exclusive ***
John Kerry brought prohibited material into last Thursday's Presidential Debate. From section 5, pages 4-5 of the binding "Memorandum of Understanding" (pdf file) that was negotiated and agreed upon by both political campaigns:
(c) No props, notes, charts, diagrams, or other writings or other tangible things may be brought into the debate by either candidate.
...
(d) Notwithstanding subparagraph 5(c), the candidates may take notes during the debate on the size, color and type of paper each side prefers. Each candidate must submit to the staff of the Commission prior to the debate all such paper and any pens or pencils with which a candidate may wish to take notes during the debate, and the staff or commission will place such paper, pens and pencils on the podium, table or other structure to be used by the candidate in that debate.
As indicated by the linked video (fullscreen mode is very compelling), John Kerry clearly removes what look like note cards or papers from his right jacket pocket, and then places them on the podium at the beginning of the debate.
1. A candidate's unilateral use of prepared notes could provide a distinct advantage in the debate, hence their mutual prohibition.
2. While the nature of the object is inconclusive based on the angle and resolution of the video, the rules clearly state that "[n]o ... tangible things may be brought into the debate by either candidate." That includes notes, Mont Blanc pens, magic hats, you name it.
INDC Journal and the Daily Recycler aren't going to hyperventilate and claim that this violation influenced the outcome of the first debate, but it's certainly reasonable to request that the rules are followed by the Kerry Campaign and enforced by the Debate Commission for the remaining two contests.
UPDATE: For anyone that still doesn't understand exactly why this rule is important, see my second comment.
UPDATE: And if it was his lucky CIA hat? The magical powers could have been devastating!
UPDATE: Captain Ed calls for strip searches at the next debate.
UPDATE: All joking aside, I have to thank ScottM for this comment:
I'm not sure why it's supposed to be fever-swamp thinking to ask why Senator Kerry violated the rules.
Exactly. I'm puzzled as to why some of the comments seem to be either the ridiculous "Of course that there lyin' snake cheated, he's a gosh-durned evul li-brul!" or "So? This is meaningless." They sure look like notes to me, but even if they weren't ... he broke the rules.
Imagine if George Bush had note cards that contained verbatim quotes of Kerry's various contradictory positions. Even paraphrased, a litany of these statements could have been used to devastating effect.
The rules are in place for very good reasons.
By the way, some of my friends, family and even readers are "li-bruls," so maybe some of you should tone that stuff down. I'm not quite sure what someone's views on social policy or economics have to do with their tendency to cheat.
UPDATE: A reader e-mails:
The front view is clear. He takes something white, not a pen, out of his breast pocket. It's something white in color, 5" to 6" long and 1/2" to1" wide. Try to get that front view.
As you may imagine, I looked far and wide for footage, but every version was from the same angle. Industrious readers that can find a frontal angle get a prize.
Follow the link below to a video of the debate. Get past the ad. Zoom full screen, then select slow play speed and watch the first 25 seconds or so. You will clearly see Kerry take something out of his pocket. That item is clearly white. He also appears to unfold the item, then place it on the podium and look at it.
Now, perhaps it's a hanky to wipe his sweat, but the motion appears to me to be more consistent with removing and unfolding a sheet of paper. I don't see a hanky being unfolded, nor would it be placed directly in front of him on the podium.
There is absolutely no way the item is a pen - it's noticeably larger than that.
Kerry may have to 'cheat' to score many points tonight
Jim Hoagland
Washington Post Columnist
The rules constrain Kerry more than Bush. Unless the challenger is prepared to "cheat" Thursday night - to go up to and even across the lines of prescribed and proscribed behavior - the devil in these details will tilt the first debate into an exchange of stump speeches.
To pre-empt frothing: I'm not implying that Jim Hoagland had some knowledge, or that John Kerry actually cheated, it's just humorous and cooincidental that he wrote that column. Calm down.
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Published: Thursday, September 30, 2004
Kerry may have to 'cheat' to score many points tonight
Jim Hoagland
Washington Post Columnist
WASHINGTON - Shortly before undergoing successful open-heart surgery this summer, a man who knows something about debating an incumbent president named Bush was asked how John Kerry should conduct tonight's televised encounter with George W.
Be respectful of the office while pressing fact after fact into responses to questions, Bill Clinton replied. "Facts are not attacks." But Kerry must gird for a tougher battle than Clinton faced against Bush 41 in 1992: "This Bush won't be looking at his watch" as the debate rolls or creeps along, the ex-president said.
It turns out to be worse than that for Kerry. Even if Bush 43 should glance away in boredom or disdain, the nation's viewers won't see that or any other telling spontaneous gesture. The 32 pages of rules negotiated by the two campaigns limit the cameras to showing the candidate who is speaking.
Between the filigreed lines of these rules lurk two asymmetric portraits of the fears that each campaign entertains about the other and, more significantly, about itself.
The rules constrain Kerry more than Bush. Unless the challenger is prepared to "cheat" Thursday night - to go up to and even across the lines of prescribed and proscribed behavior - the devil in these details will tilt the first debate into an exchange of stump speeches.
That prospect delights the Bush camp.
"We've got the better campaign speech and the only candidate who is good at delivering one," says a Bush campaign insider. An internal study by the Kerry campaign echoes this view. It found that in 2000, Bush took 18 lines from his standard speech and repeated them 59 times in three debates against Al Gore. "We have to deal with the fact he stays on message," says a Kerry strategist.
The precautions the Bush camp has taken suggest that its fears in the first debate center on Kerry's prosecutorial experience and debate techniques. James Baker, Bush's chief negotiator, seeks to protect his client's flanks with rules that prevent the two candidates from asking each other direct questions or addressing each other with proposals. And they may not roam, Clinton-style, from their podiums, when the debates move into a town hall setting.
Baker and Karl Rove clearly feel that the first debate will be decisive and in Bush's favor. They gave in without visible pain to Kerry's demand that there be a closing third debate centered on domestic and economic policy.
The challenger paid heavily for that safety-net option. He may be able to correct mistakes from rounds one and two in the closer, which will feature job losses and Roe v. Wade. But the GOP is betting that the smaller number of viewers that a third debate historically attracts will have already settled on a candidate. Opening is everything for Rove.
That leaves Kerry with both a dilemma and an opportunity in the first debate. If he displays a disciplined and polite defiance of the rules - a defiance that communicates that those rules are being used to keep important information and impressions from the viewing audience - he could yet acquire in one night the image of boldness and leadership that has escaped him on the campaign trail.
Kerry has to walk a fine line in judging how the public will view "cheating" in those circumstances. Viewers will see red lights come on in a visual reprimand to the debater who goes beyond the tight time constraints contained in the Bush-Kerry memorandum of understanding.
Each candidate gets 90 seconds to answer a minimum of 16 questions and 30 seconds to comment on his foe's answer. This two-minute limit would seem to help the "on-message" Bush and penalize Kerry's much-remarked-upon prolixity. Unless, as Kerry advisers hope, this becomes their Trojan horse: "Kerry in fact needs the verbal discipline the time limit imposes."
But the larger question remains: What will Kerry use that time to say about Iraq and foreign policy? Compressing his answers will inevitably make Kerry sound more like an all-out antiwar candidate than he has been willing to be on the stump.
In any event, Kerry made that position the only coherent one left to him by calling into question last week the credibility of both Iraq's interim prime minister, Ayad Allawi, and the elections in Iraq that the United Nations is helping organize for January.
In 90 minutes, beginning at 6 tonight, John Kerry must not only overcome George W. Bush but also slip Houdini-like from the straitjacket of rules that Kerry willingly donned for this joust. We will know a lot more about his judgment at the end of this first, defining debate.
Jim Hoagland is a Washington Post columnist. Contact him by writing to [email protected].
"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The person who has nothing for which he is willing
to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
--John Stuart Mill
posted on October 3, 2004 08:59:12 PM
Kerry won the debate by all counts bear. Get over it, maybe the President won't smirk like a junior high student next time, and win a few more points....
posted on October 3, 2004 09:09:18 PM
You have to laugh at the desperaion that inpires such an article.
I'm actually surprised that you have not jumped all over your conservative heros at Fox whose "violation' of the agreement resulted in much of the negative impression of Bush. Those cutaways that Foxs pool camera and producers kept working in were an agreement no-no.
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
posted on October 4, 2004 02:32:17 AM
I didn't read the article bear posted in the fact all of the major news sources indicate that KERRY WON!
And that was on Bush's strongest point. The next debate on the economy should ever be more of a winner for Kerry. Especially when Kerry brings up the fact that Bush as a president has lost more jobs than any other president in 75 YEARS!
Bigots are miserable people. Prevent Bigotry through Education.
posted on October 4, 2004 06:05:32 AM
Sorry bear the only people that believe your RIGHT WING COPY AND PASTE BULL ROAR are a hand full of your buddies on this board.
Kerry kicked your failed leaders butt in the last debate. Kerry showed American what a BUFFOON BUSH is when he can't read every word of a pre-written speech like he does on the campaign trail.
posted on October 4, 2004 07:33:34 AM
Kerry won. No, wait, if you cheat you get an automatic 'F'. Too bad the frothing liberals can't get away from the surprise euphoria to address the issue.
If you cheat, you forfeit. Bush won, even if Kerry can explain and produce whatever the object was he pulled from his pocket in violation of the agreed upon rules.
I learned the basics of this one in Kindergarten, folks.
posted on October 4, 2004 08:02:46 AM
Enough of this stupidity!!
The Desperation is just so Pathetic!!!!
Many blogs offered links to the "Pocket-gate" footage. One, INDC Journal, even posted frame-by-frame stills purporting to show Kerry pulling out a note card and placing it onto the podium.
But the mystery was solved when The Post reviewed a Fox News Channel feed from Thursday's debate: Kerry pulled out . . . a black pen.
Kerry campaign spokesman David Wade remained angry at the bloggers' guilt-by-insinuation
"The right-wing attack machine will say anything to steal a debate do-over," he said.
"We plead guilty to having a pen."
The Bush campaign did not comment
The only person who is stupider than Drudge is someone stupid enough to believe something written there.
posted on October 4, 2004 08:03:29 AM
The debate was to be Bush's big issue and he failed period. From here on out Kerry has the other debates won. I also expect edwards to easily win against cheney.......all it takes is 2 words halliburton and enron.
posted on October 4, 2004 08:07:00 AMThe only person who is stupider than Drudge is someone stupid enough to believe something written there
The same goes for limbaugh....the man should be in jail for the drugs issue, but these so called "conservatives" welcome him with open arms. He is no better than the trash you see in the papers being caught taking and selling dope.
posted on October 4, 2004 08:11:31 AM
Debate watchers from NBC say that all Edwards will have to do is slaughter Cheney on Haliburton. Edwards should be able to convince anyone watching that Cheney was a crook when dealing government contracts to Haliburton. It should be pretty easy.
Bigots are miserable people. Prevent Bigotry through Education.
posted on October 4, 2004 09:41:09 AM
It's been fun watching/listening to the soundbites of the two candidates try to explain what they meant during the debate.
The winner/loser - [we each see that differently] of the debate isn't going to matter as much as the discussion now going on, as they travel the campaign trails. They're both still discussing the debate issues with their supporters. Preaching mostly to the choir, imo.
But one of the issues that I still haven't heard kerry explain is his statement that he tried to make about being willing to go to war unilaterally....but with 'global' approval. LOL
He's going to have a difficult time explaining that one, imo.
To go unilaterally means alone. So why would we need permission from other countries to 'go it alone?' Maybe someone here can explain if they've heard how kerry's trying to get out of that 'double speak' - trying to please two different groups in his own party. Because the republicans sure find that statement amusing.
posted on October 4, 2004 10:20:16 AM
Are you lips having a problem understanding the rules of the debate agreed upon by both sides.
Clearly kerry violated those rules.
(d) Notwithstanding subparagraph 5(c), the candidates may take notes during the debate on the size, color and type of paper each side prefers. Each candidate must submit to the staff of the Commission prior to the debate all such paper and any pens or pencils with which a candidate may wish to take notes during the debate, and the staff or commission will place such paper, pens and pencils on the podium, table or other structure to be used by the candidate in that debate.
As indicated by the linked video (fullscreen mode is very compelling), John Kerry clearly removes what look like note cards or papers from his right jacket pocket, and then places them on the podium at the beginning of the debate.
Had Pres Bush removed a cheat sheet (like kerry did) all of you would be screaming.
Hey, hey Ho, ho Kerry - sign the 1-8-0
"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The person who has nothing for which he is willing
to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
--John Stuart Mill
[ edited by Bear1949 on Oct 4, 2004 10:22 AM ]
posted on October 4, 2004 11:26:28 AM
Just another neocon conspiracy to cover up the fact that Kerry kicked GW's butt (see my post- Kerry kicks GW's butt over and over again).
Notice that not even the Bush party have bothered to comment on it. Even they know how silly these claims are. So, go ahead, believe what you want.
I personally wouldn't have expected anything less from Bear. I'm sure Bear stumbled on this while searching for a story on Kerry's bronzer. Pretty shallow argument from a pretty shallow lemming.
posted on October 4, 2004 11:45:29 AM
Bear... go back and re-read your Drudge Report.. they even say it was a "Pen"..
So My God.. are we now whining about a Pen? You want to call this debate on the use of an illegal pen? This is as Stupid as the rumor that Bush was wired.. for God Sake..man, you are worthy of better than this kind of trash.
Desperation is an ugly thing..Maggie..
PS.. Bear I thought that you mentioned that you were on disability? Are you not in fear of having your benefits cut and slashed if Bush is re-elected? He seems to be trying to cut most "Social" programs..
posted on October 4, 2004 12:28:53 PM
I bet Bear and Linda are going to write to their congressmen and complain about how Kerry supposedly cheated during the debate.
DICK CHENEY SUPPORTS MY RELATIONSHIP: People ought to be free to enter into any kind of relationship they want to
Let's have a BBQ, Texas style, ROAST BUSH
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YOU CAN'T HAVE BULLSH** WITH OUT BUSH.
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posted on October 4, 2004 01:14:22 PM
Are you as sick of the desperate attempts to spread bullslip propaganda against Kerry, as I am?
If the whiny Republicans need to find an excuse to explain why Bush failed so miserably in this debate... here are a few they can add to their list...feel free to add more if you choose...LOL
EXCUSES WHY BUSH LOST THE DEBATE
1-His tie was askew and distracted viewers -that explains why he doesn't wear a tie at his rallies
2-The timing lights distracted him -- He was the only one who got the flashing light and nothing was said - I didn't even notice -- I guess he had a flashback and thought he was being arrested
3-Kerry got all the easy questions (I guess his idea of an easy questions is when you know the answer)
4-Kerry cheated - What Kerry had a better pen - Bush's "squeaked" when he used it.
5-Kerry made him look like an idiot - (facial response to Kerry's remarks) - Well grow up - John Kerry is not responsible for the face you have - God gave you a brain and a mouth - how you use it - is your responsibility
posted on October 4, 2004 02:16:32 PM
Come on libs. Let's be fair to the neocons.
We should give George some handicap points to even the playing field. It's not his fault his father wasn't ever around to guide him as a child. It was obvious that George Sr ran a tight schedule. Look at his concern for time at his own debate.
IT IS HARD WORK TO SPEND 200 BILLION DOLLARS AND COVER UP THE FACT YOU HAVE NOTHING TO SHOW FOR IT!
posted on October 4, 2004 04:53:34 PM
Now if Bush just "stays the course" and performs like he did in the last debate, Kerry should walk away with the election.
DICK CHENEY SUPPORTS MY RELATIONSHIP: People ought to be free to enter into any kind of relationship they want to
Let's have a BBQ, Texas style, ROAST BUSH
------------------------------
YOU CAN'T HAVE BULLSH** WITH OUT BUSH.
------------------------------
posted on October 4, 2004 04:55:49 PMNow if Bush just "stays the course" and performs like he did in the last debate, Kerry should walk away with the election
posted on October 4, 2004 10:35:40 PM
I was away from home during the debate so couldn't watch it. I've seen some clips of Bush's stumbling-bumbling-long hesitations when reaching for a word or thought. Most people I've talked with say Kerry won the debate in a landslide but I can't declare that, not having seen the whole thing.
The one thing I keep noticing and trying not to notice is how both Bush and Cheney smirk in a sort of one-sided way--one goes one way, the other guy goes the other. Once I began noticing that characteristic, it's been hard NOT to notice. It's very strange, like Bush was trying to find his mirror-image-smirker for a running mate.
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Andy Rooney on Vegetarians: Vegetarian - that's an old Indian word meaning "lousy hunter".
posted on October 5, 2004 05:30:38 PM
Maggie, do you need remedial reading lessions:
(d) Notwithstanding subparagraph 5(c), the candidates may take notes during the debate on the size, color and type of paper each side prefers. Each candidate must submit to the staff of the Commission prior to the debate all such paper and any pens or pencils with which a candidate may wish to take notes during the debate, and the staff or commission will place such paper, pens and pencils on the podium, table or other structure to be used by the candidate in that debate.
Hey, hey Ho, ho Kerry - sign the 1-8-0
"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The person who has nothing for which he is willing
to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
--John Stuart Mill
posted on October 5, 2004 08:40:41 PM
Ba-da-bing. Need it repeated one more time?
(d) Notwithstanding subparagraph 5(c), the candidates may take notes during the debate on the size, color and type of paper each side prefers. Each candidate must submit to the staff of the Commission prior to the debate all such paper and any pens or pencils with which a candidate may wish to take notes during the debate, and the staff or commission will place such paper, pens and pencils on the podium, table or other structure to be used by the candidate in that debate.
Which part do the mouth breathers in the audience need repeated again?
posted on October 5, 2004 09:02:38 PMPS.. Bear I thought that you mentioned that you were on disability? Are you not in fear of having your benefits cut and slashed if Bush is re-elected? He seems to be trying to cut most "Social" programs..
I am and it isn't Pres Bush I worry about.
What kerry and you demos are blaming on Pres Bush is a legacy from the Clinton years.
As it turns out the increase in Medicare premiums and proposed cuts other social security programs was not imposed by President Bush but was mandated by the "balanced budget agreement" signed by President Clinton, voted into law by Senator John Kerry, and was scheduled to come into effect during the Bush administration. President Bush has been given no authority to reverse what had been voted into law by Senator Kerry during the Clinton administration.
Once again Kerry and the dumbos are counting on the ignorance of the American people.
Hey, hey Ho, ho Kerry - sign the 1-8-0
"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The person who has nothing for which he is willing
to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
--John Stuart Mill
posted on October 5, 2004 09:41:40 PM
Parklame.. stop hiding behind the bushes you little wimp.. every time a republican attacks.. you run out from behind the bushes wearing your cheerleader outfit.. LOL..
Never an original thought of your own.. crawl back under your rock.. oh slimy one.. LOL...besides, you haven't got the legs for the short skirt.. RAH! RAH! RAH!
Bear.. for your sake I hope you are right about not worrying about your benefits ... if Bush is re-elected...he doesn't appear to have much compassion for those in need... maggie
Prevent Bigotry through Education.
