posted on April 2, 2005 12:17:21 PM new
I was a little surprise to here one of the Fox commentators saying this morning with a bit of shock that "even atheists" were watching what was happening with the Pope and expressing concern. Why is this so shocking? Certainly Catholics realize that this man has transcended the binds of his specific religion. Is it really so hard to comprehend that even those that do not share his religion or even many of his beliefs hold a great deal of respect for someone who has accomplished as much as he has and that did it with humilty and for no reason other than doing what he believed to be right as opposed to what was popular?
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
[ edited by fenix03 on Apr 2, 2005 12:17 PM ]
posted on April 2, 2005 12:45:08 PM new
I agree. He WAS a great and humble man. Whether you hold the same beliefs as Catholics or not, he accomplished alot during his "reign" as Pope to better the world as a whole. I'm not a Catholic, heck at times I'm not sure what I am, but I held a great deal of respect for the man.
posted on April 2, 2005 01:12:54 PM new
It boils down to ignorance. Mention the word athiest and many people think you mean devil-worshipper or person void of goodness.
The Pope was a great man that did his job well. I hope he has a wonderful afterlife.
posted on April 2, 2005 01:29:12 PM new
I am especially impressed by the Pope's unrelenting support of human rights. During the president's visit to the Vatican to garner Catholic votes -- the Pope warned Bush that he would never succeed in the war on terrorism if he failed to ensure respect for basic human rights and he urged Bush to return the sovereignty to Iraq. The pontiff also said, in reference to the Abu Ghraib abuse, "In the past few weeks _ deplorable events have come to light which have troubled the civic and religious conscience of all and made more difficult a serene and resolute commitment to shared human values.
The remark by Fox News doesn't surprise me....They elected George Bush.
posted on April 2, 2005 02:04:10 PM new
Little good it did Helen. I mean why bother meeting with the Pope if you know what he'd have to say would be unfavourable?? What'd he say... screw you?
posted on April 2, 2005 02:40:05 PM new
The Pope was one of the war's strongest critics. Bush made a major miscalculation if he expected the Pope not to state his concerns during that meeting.
During the meeting, the pope expressed his concern for the situation in the Middle East and called for the speedy return of Iraq's sovereignty.
In a wavering voice and with the paper in his hands shaking, the pope told Bush that the international community must be included in further dealings with Iraq, but he addressed his long-held opposition to the war only in passing.
"Mr. President, your visit to Rome takes place at a moment of great concern for the continuing situation of grave unrest in the Middle East, both in Iraq and in the Holy Land," he said.
"It is the evident desire of everyone that this situation now be normalized as quickly as possible with the active participation of the international community and, in particular, the United Nations organization, in order to ensure a speedy return of Iraq's sovereignty, in conditions of security for all its people."
The appointment of a new government in Iraq, he said, is a step in the right direction.
In an apparent reference to the Iraqi prisoner abuse scandal at Abu Ghraib prison, the pope said that "other deplorable events have come to light which have troubled the civic and religious conscience of all and made more difficult a serene and resolute commitment to shared human values."
"In the absence of such a commitment, neither war nor terrorism will ever be overcome," he said.
posted on April 2, 2005 02:51:42 PM new
Bush has probably convinced himself, especially since the election, that the God that talks to him is more accurate than the one the Pope uses.
posted on April 2, 2005 04:41:59 PM new
Pope John Paul II was certainly the most outspoken of popes in a long time. It is so rare to find a pope who was as outspoken. Usually, they shy away from controversy. I am Catholic and may Our Holy Father rest in peace.
posted on April 2, 2005 04:48:41 PM new
Good coverage of media distortion and lies, such as the topic of this thread can be found here...Media Matters for America
posted on April 2, 2005 10:11:39 PM new
Helen, did you happen to read any of the Pope's and catholic church views on homosexuality, or the Terri Schiavo case?
Here's some of what was said:
VATICAN CITY (CNS) -- "Whoever stands idly by without trying to prevent the death of Terri Schindler Schiavo becomes an accomplice to murder", said Cardinal Renato Martino, head of the Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace. The death of the severely brain-damaged woman "would represent a homicide in which it is impossible to idly stand by without becoming accomplices," said in a March 31 interview with Vatican Radio.
Laud him as a accomplished political figure if you want to, but you cannot musunderstand or misinterpret who he was and what he stood for.
posted on April 3, 2005 05:37:55 AM new Laud him as a accomplished political figure if you want to, but you cannot musunderstand or misinterpret who he was and what he stood for.
Dbl...On this solemn occasion, I have only mentioned one aspect of his political agenda with which I agree. I have not misunderstood or misinterpreted his aversion to the Iraq war.
posted on April 3, 2005 09:15:14 AM newOn this solemn occasion, I have only mentioned one aspect of his political agenda with which I agree. I have not misunderstood or misinterpreted his aversion to the Iraq war.
Your the one that said this SOLEMN OCCASION, so let it be one. Instead
you've posted 3 x in this about how he was against the war. One with a quote in it, another with a link
N.T.S., I posted a quality of the Pope that I admire...his focus on human rights issues for all people and his concern about the situation in the Middle East. If you disagree with the Pope on that issue, I am sure that you can find another one that you admire.
I suggest, n.t.s. that you should "give it a rest" because it's your comment that is crude and inappropriate under the circumstances.
posted on April 3, 2005 01:34:10 PM new
Well, there is a lot of dissonance going on there. I suppose it's difficult for the pro-war group to see the Pope with a position that they are so strongly against. How many times have I been called anti-American or unpatriotic while holding a view similar to that of the Pope?
The Pope's position on the war is not in keeping with their war mongering philosophy and therefore it's seen as derogatory when I mention it.
I really didn't intend to ruffle anyone's feathers with that information. I sincerely admire the Pope's stand on the war.
posted on April 3, 2005 02:04:47 PM new
Amen NTS, after all the Pope was a HUMAN being that put his pants on one leg at a time. Its not like he died on the cross.
A word to the wise ain't necessary, it's the stupid ones that need the advice."
- Bill Cosby
posted on April 3, 2005 03:10:07 PM new
In addition to opposing the Iraq war, John Paul 11 opposed the death penalty. He condemned laissez-faire capitalism and cared about the exploitation of workers. Pope John Paul 11 also cared about the rights and welfare of the Palestininian people.
posted on April 3, 2005 03:31:14 PM new
You know, Helen, I am glad you can find something courageous and admirable about Pope John Paul's life.
But you have to see the irony of people who don't believe in God, trying to use his death as some sort of ally against an American republican adgenda. ???
Everything he was, what his whole life lead him to, is totally antithetical to what atheist's care about!
If he did anything great, he would tell you God moved him to to it. Anybody else you (not you per se) would pooh-pooh that, and probably summarily dismiss them. You really cant seperate him from that. This is the Pope were talking about!
..
[ edited by dblfugger9 on Apr 3, 2005 03:32 PM ]
posted on April 3, 2005 04:15:40 PM new "Everything he was, what his whole life lead him to, is totally antithetical to what atheist's care about!
What nonsense! You are either confused or uninformed, Dbl. Atheists care about the human condition, peace, love and respect between all people throughout the world. As an atheist, I believe that I have more understanding and respect for John Paul 11 than some of the believers who have posted in this thread.
I have simply mentioned the qualities and beliefs of a Pope that I admire without regard to the source of his inspiration. I had no intention to use his death as an opportunity to bash the right wing agenda of the Republican party.
posted on April 3, 2005 05:00:10 PM new
Yes, and I can walk away from this, and will in any future 'confrontations' with you or whomever, because, I am not glued to this computer and this message board.
But, first out of respect for my fathers beliefs (he still doesn't know that I am not Catholic any longer, and I'm leaving it that way, for his sake, as he is in his 80's)
I went to Mass with him at our old parish.
1. As for War and the Popes views on it, well gee, lemme see, YES, he would be against War.. So are other people that are in the headlines everyday, and most 'Spritual Leaders'. And NO, I am not a war monger, or pro war.
2 Get it right, he wasn't John Paul 11 he was John Paul II
3. No kidding, he celebrated Peace? A Roman Catholic Pope? Who'd a thunk it?
4. Do you know (I didn't keep up on the Pope, ask Bunnicula ) what Pope John Paul II's views were on Bosnia? Was he in support of the 'wars' going on there?
I think, but NOT SURE that he wasn't exactly the pacifist you think, when it comes to that, and if I remember right. But
I ain't doing any searches on it.
posted on April 3, 2005 06:29:43 PM newWhat nonsense! You are either confused or uninformed, Dbl.
oh yeah, I'm real uniformed about what comprises a POPE's life.
I have more understanding and respect for John Paul 11 than some of the believers who have posted in this thread.
Do you happen to understand he starts his day in pray and probably continues that all the day long, every day? You dont understand sh* about a catholic priest, or even about a common religious man of catholic persuasion, never mind you trying to pretend you understand the Papacy.
posted on April 3, 2005 06:43:17 PM new
Dbl...You are becoming unintelligible. Usually, I admire your intelligence and your creative writing ability but today, you are not making a lick of sense.
posted on April 4, 2005 06:21:54 AM new
You know what, Helen? You're right. He was an honorable and good man, and if thats the most anybody can understand about it, thats probably enough to leave it at that. Because if some tells you he was considered "Holy" to millions of catholics, that some how seems irrelevant and incoherent to you and all atheists.
.
[ edited by dblfugger9 on Apr 4, 2005 06:30 AM ]
posted on April 4, 2005 12:33:53 PM new
I had read in the paper that doctors wanted to insert a feed tube into the Pope about 3 days before he died because they thought he was getting too thin. Well the Pope, not being normally prone to losing control or losing his temper because he was normaly a very calm person, upon finding out about this planned procedure did lose his temper and he shouted out a Polish expletive.
He shouted out AHH SCHIAVO!
posted on April 4, 2005 01:22:33 PM new"Because if some tells you (Helen) he was considered "Holy" to millions of catholics, that some how seems irrelevant and incoherent to you and all atheists."
I don't understand what that means, Double. Geez, you sure have been telling everyone how to act, think, feel, say and do lately. How do you know how Helen feels about the Pope??
posted on April 4, 2005 01:57:05 PM newdon't understand what that means, Double.
Yes, I'm sure you dont understand that, kraft. But if you dont know what "Holy" is, I certainly cant explain it to you.
How do you know how Helen feels about the Pope??
uhh, maybe because she posted how she feels about it here herself? "I posted a quality of the Pope that I admire..." and here: "As an atheist, I believe that I have more understanding and respect for John Paul 11 than some of the believers who have posted in this thread..
And as far as me telling everybody what to think feel, etc. I shovel the same sh* back, that gets put to me here. Sorry if you find mine has a little more bite to it than you'd like. Are you telling me, then, I should adjust my personality just to suit you?
KD...I would like to reply to whatever Dbl is concerned about but frankly, I don't understand her complaint. This thread is about whether or not Atheists can appreciate and admire the Pope. I have listed the reasons that I admire the Pope and my replies were sincerely felt.
I also appreciate the fact that the Catholic Church is more commited to social justice than most churches.
