posted on August 18, 2000 03:26:26 PM
I did not post the following question on any eBay "Community" boards for two primary reasons; I did not want to expose a seller to unnecessary and unfair suspicion regarding honesty, and the boards are filled with an abundance of irrelevant prattle and html and image flaunting.
Question:
I have discovered my wife bid on several quilt covers and various quilt-related items being auctioned on eBay. She is a novice to bidding in online auctions and therefore unfamiliar with the pitfalls and too apprehensive to query the seller before bidding for fear she will offend the seller.
She won a bid on a quilt cover that, by the ad (stated material type and lack of information pertaining to individuality), made me suspicious of origin and how the quilt cover was actually made.
I sent the seller (low FB-no negs) a post-sale message asking for information on the quilt regarding who made the quilt cover, where was it made, and any other information that would indicate singular distinctiveness. I advised the information was necessary for insurance appraisal and coverage on our homeowner's policy.
The seller wrote back and advised the quilt was new and made in "China" and stated that the origin was stated in the ad. It (origin) definitely is not stated in the ad.
Now comes the case for arguments regarding semantics and failure to make post-bid inquiries.
The ad states the item (is) "brand new" and "hand-quilted" It is the term "hand-quilted" I have an argument with, and the term that qualifies for arguments based on semantics.
I called a source in China that manufactures such items (do not know if same company that manufactured quilt my wife purchased.) I provided the rep the information regarding materials and lost-cost seller is willing to take. The rep stated that most likely the quilt was mass-produced on machines. However, it cannot (yet) be said that the item was not produced by hand by several people, but doubtful.
Now comes the quandary. Obviously the seller knew where the item was made but did not state it in his/her ad. It is my suspicion that the seller purposely withheld stating the origin of manufacture, knowing doing so would prevent even the novice bidder from bidding.
His/her advising that the origin was in the ad when it is not, tends to make me believe the seller intentionally constructed a misleading ad.
I want to contact eBay and advise that I am advising my wife not to accept the item and advise the seller of same. Problem is, regardless the true origin and manufacturer is not stated in the ad, can I show just cause for refusing the item. If I can prove the quilt is not "hand-quilted," can I stand on that, or is there a valid argument that the quilt being mass-produced on a machine by 1 person or by several people in a factory environment validates the term, "hand-quilted?"
What say you?
PS: Seller selling numerous items and related items of same type, and all ads generally worded the same and (presently)lacking "Made in China".
posted on August 18, 2000 04:09:39 PM
The seller was less than forthright about the nature of the quilt. He/she knew that to put "China' in the description would be the proverbial kiss of death. I have seen sellers weasel-word auctions in this way before, and I don't approve.
If it were me, I would politely explain your position to the seller and suggest that it might be best for all concerned if both parties walked away from the deal.
If the seller refuses to see the wisdom in this, I would gently break it to the seller that you're not going to honor the transaction because you feel that you were deliberately misled. And furthermore, that if they press the issue, you will leave feedback clearly stating that the seller is peddling brand new quilts from CHINA.
posted on August 18, 2000 04:14:45 PM
Well, I don't think it's so terrible that the seller didn't state the quilt's origin in his ad -- that's not uncommon. As far as you know the listing is accurate, since you only suspect that it isn't hand-quilted. I don't think you have much basis on which to refuse to accept it.
I'm sorry if you feel like your wife is being taken for a ride, though, because she's a novice. There do seem to be many items of questionable quality on eBay. But if she likes it, why not just let her enjoy her purchase?
posted on August 18, 2000 04:19:29 PM
sgtmike-'hand made' or 'hand quilted' this could be true..... as looking at a beanie babie with TY tags (no its not a quilt but.)
says on its 'tush tag' Handmade in China.
There are tons of items that are 'handmade' 'handcrafted' etc in China. As there are a ton of what we would call 'sweat shops' there.
So I am not sure, the ad stated 'handcrafted' or 'hand quilted' , which they could put on the tag, and then again, it may not actually be 'hand quilted' IF that made any sense at all
edited to add: On the tag the company puts out, they probably could put anything, like 'hand quilted' when it was actually mass produced. So then it wouldn't be the sellers fault, if that is what it says on the tag?
[ edited by ShellyHerr on Aug 18, 2000 04:23 PM ]
posted on August 18, 2000 04:39:24 PMspazmodeus - RainyBear
Both are valid points. However, I presently concur with spaz's point (comments). I always try to not assume or condemn without facts, but in this case I am very suspicious of the knowingly and intent aspect.
Rainy, I have to disagree with you about not including the origin being a petty act. Any information that indicates or identifies market or collectable value is absolutely relevant and should be in the ad. Additionally, I would gamble that many (good) ads contain some info indicating origin, era, manufacturer, etc.
I am not questioning this transaction because my wife (may) have been taken for a ride. It is my money also. The primary reason is I do not like deception -if deception is the case in this matter, no matter whom the victim is.
Also, now that the origin of manufacture is known, the final bid is about $35.00 over actual value.
Most of all, such acts create a very tough environment for all sellers.
I have sent the seller an email stating my concerns and my findings. I have also asked for documented verification that the quilt is "hand quilted." I ended by advising the seller I was open to any suggestion.
posted on August 18, 2000 04:46:36 PM
Well, that's certainly reasonable. Quilts really aren't my area so I don't know much about collectible value vs. everyday use. If the seller did indeed omit important information in order to make a sale, I'm sure I'd feel the same way you do.
I hadn't considered that in this case the country of origin could be as vital a fact as manufacturer is in other cases.
Good luck, sgtmike - I hope you and your wife have a good outcome on this.
posted on August 18, 2000 04:54:23 PM
sgtmike, most of the "handmade" quilts that are sold in department stores are made in China according to a friend of mine. She and her mother have shown hand-quilted pieces in major shows in the Southeast and they've said that quilts made in China have created problems for them as sellers for years now. People want hand-quilted objects but often don't see the big difference in her work and that of the Chinese. A lot of the difference can be in stitches per inch - Chinese quilts often have fewer and coarser ones. So I guess there's a chance that the quilt your wife bid on could be hand-quilted. Maybe an experienced person could tell from the pictures whether it is machine stitched or hand stitched. Sorry, I'm no help there.
The seller should state that the description is according to attached identifier. If seller knows identifier is false or misleading, then seller is obligated to say.
My brother recently ordered 2 sets of field mess gear from a catalogue. Ad said, "Genuine G.I. issue, stainless steel, used but in good condition."
When items arrived, they are an inferior clone,there was an inventory tag attached that said "Genuine G.I. issue." There was another sticker that said "Made in China." Ad does not say the items were made in China. I suppose one could argue that the items were genuine "Chinese G.I. issue."
Items were new and, not stainless, but brushed aluminum.
They have been advised their game won't download and best make it right within 14 days.
posted on August 18, 2000 05:24:58 PMsgtmike, I think you're confusing "hand quilted" with "hand pieced".
Although some contemporary quilters do still hand-piece their quilt tops (there are a few designs that require this), a huge percentage of us do indeed machine piece the tops, and then hand quilt the results. Quilt tops have been machine-pieced ever since the invention of the sewing machine. The only reknowned quilter I know that is a hand-piecing hardliner is Jinny Beyer, but as she also insists on using scissors rather than a rotary cutter to cut her pieces, I don't think you could exactly consider her "mainstream".
The Chinese quilts are all machine pieced and hand quilted. There's nothing questionable about several workers doing the hand quilting. Most antique quilts are indeed quilted by many hands (hence the "quilting bee".
You are not going to get the quality of workmanship in a Chinese "factory" quilt that you are in a one-off, handmade quilt from, say, moi However, you are not going to pay beaucoup bucks, either. Shoot, the Chinese ones are available at K-Mart for $50 all the time, and they just JUMP right out at you as mass-produced. You get what you pay for. What was the opening bid (these invariably start at $something.99), and what was your wife's high bid on this piece? Hate to say it, but if it's selling for cheap, there's usually a reason.
I don't see that you've got a gripe, frankly. "Hand-quilted" by any definition does NOT now mean, nor has it ever meant, either "hand pieced" or "quilted by one person".
If she likes, next time your wife wants to bid on a quilt, have her email me first at [email protected], and I'll give her my NSHO on its age, origin, and probable auction value.
posted on August 18, 2000 05:47:29 PM
I beg to differ.
It doesn't take an expert to figure out that "quilting" refers to (duh) the part of a quilt that is QUILTED, which is the stitching that holds the top and the bottom together.
This sounds like a serious case of bidder's husband's remorse, and that husband is looking for an excuse to beg out of the deal. I'm dying to know what her high bid was on this piece, but it sounds like I'm not going to get that information.
But the real issue is this: If SHE liked the way the quilt looked enough to bid on it, what do YOU care whether it was made in China or at Hart Cottage, fifty years ago or last week, is one-of-a-kind or one of many? Jeez, leave the poor woman alone to enjoy her purchase.
posted on August 18, 2000 05:57:41 PM
Excuse me, spin me around and set me down. I thought we (WERE) talking about how the pieces are attached. Sewn, quilted, super-glued.
In other words, sewn by hand or sewn by machine. I make clothes not quilts, but I do know my way around thread and stitch. I do some by HAND, I do most by MACHINE.
posted on August 18, 2000 06:40:40 PM
The item was advertised as "hand-quilted" and now you discover it is mass-produced in China. I wouldn't blame you for being upset.
However, you are being a real killjoy for your wife. She made the purchase, let her handle it. If she feels she was ripped off, let her deal with the seller. Perhaps you've already browbeat her to the point where she may never bid on eBay again. Is that worth $35?
It's both your money, but letting your partner have some "space" and room to grow is what marriage is about. Let her handle the quilt issue and stay out of it. Who knows, she may like it.
posted on August 18, 2000 07:35:05 PM
Hi Sarge. Im not an expert in quilts either..handstitched, handmade or whatever its called. BUT, if it wasnt in the description as the seller stated in the email to you, then he/she should not force you to finish the deal if you are unhappy. I say this from my own perspective...once, I forgot to add the schpeel I always ALWAYS put in (this time I was in a hurry and FORGOT!! Sheesh)...anyway, the item did not fit the buyer, so she wanted a refund. I said "sorry...as per my policies" blah blah...then I went and looked, and nope...no policies. I refunded her money because it was the right thing to do. Now whether this seller has the same ideas and concepts as mine, who knows. But, in my opinion, I think since it didnt state what you asked about in email, then it wasnt described fully.
posted on August 18, 2000 08:08:10 PM
Sgt.Mike - HCQ has described the correct 'words' and how they are applied to quilts. You said, "The ad states the item (is) "brand new" and "hand-quilted" It is the term "hand-quilted" I have an argument with, and the term that qualifies for arguments based on semantics."
These *are* hand quilted.
Usually only old quilts were totally hand pieced and hand quilted. Most modern ones are machine sewn then hand quilted. Some are both machine pieced and machine quilted. They have large quilting machines that do this part of the process so easily and quickly now-a-days.
As to the issue of being made in China, if the seller is selling more than one of these then I would also feel, as you do, that they are mis-representing what they are selling. BUT, if the seller is only selling one of these, they may not (themself) be aware that this was made in China. The quilt like your wife has purchased is machine sewn and hand quilted....just not to the best standards, therefore commonly sold in department stores in huge lots.
I, too, see a lot of these while searching for quilts. I usually email to ask if brand new means 'newly sewn' by seller or newly purchased from a vendor or manufacturer.
It's hard to know what the sellers intentions were.
Hope the seller is willing to understand how her/his ad might be misleading, and agree to void this trade. Good luck.
posted on August 18, 2000 10:55:51 PM
Here are the core factors, as I perceive them, regarding this matter.
Although I am not (generally) a seller (was in 1995-1977), I can appreciate the many problems honest and responsible sellers must face stemming from the problems other less honest and less responsible sellers cause. If I selfishly turn my head to issues that do not (always) affect me, or problems I can resolve in my favor but let others fend for themselves, then I am contributing to any future or continuing problems (I) may have with sellers, or with buyers. Last, I do not condone being ripped off. And if the slightest hint exists that I am, I will go on the offensive.
Yes, every buyer can and should email the seller if there are questions. Easy said but not always realistic nor does the opportunity always exist. There is not (always) time to email and wait for a response. The time of day an item of interest is discovered vs. ending time of auction does not permit an exchange of Q and A. An ad may be discovered in the last minutes of the sale.
Just because the process exists (ask questions by email) does not mean the process should always be required. Many sellers take advantage of the existing obstacles and also know buyers are often afraid to ask questions for fear of offending the seller. Everything that is known and relevant to the description and value of an item, and all pre and post-sale terms should be present in the ad. A buyer should not be required to email for answers that should already be answered.. in the ad.
In this case, the fact that the item was made in China was known by the seller and is relevant to the evaluation of quality and value. It is common knowledge that most buyers in this country, online or offline, discriminate by what country the item was made in. It is obvious this seller did know and therefore purposely withheld the information. He/she is selling numerous items of same category with very similar descriptions, excluding "Made in China."
The seller claims to be an experienced quilt maker. If that is true then he or she would undoubtedly know the origin of manufacture could affect the interest in the item and bid levels. Accordingly, he or she should know if the quilt is mass-produced by machine or hand sewn, in part or in whole, regardless of what a tag may claim.
Toosoft
Please explain how my assisting my wife is "browbeating?" What is this marriage counseling bs? How did you conclude there is an environment of gender related control in my marriage? Room to grow??? Please tell me how long my wife and I have been married and what kind of relationship we have. How do you know I am being a "killjoy" to my wife. How did you conclude all this? You must have a "Guidebook for Feminists."
My wife has been apprised of the matter and what I am doing, from scratch. It is a fact that I am better at detecting and handling matters such as is being discussed here.
I have received a response from the seller. I would like to see the comments regarding what the seller said.
posted on August 18, 2000 11:08:23 PM
Is there something wrong with a seller selling something that is "Made in China"?
I don't understand what you mean by saying
It is common knowledge that most buyers in this country, online or offline, discriminate by what country the item was made in.
There are NOW a lot of very good quality items "Made in China" and "Made in Tawian" etc..... there was a Beanie craze for crying out loud, you know what people were paying (then not now) for those "MADE IN CHINA" bean bags toys...... people paid good money for those, and they are MADE IN CHINA.
I have seen those 'mass produced' quilts and comforters MADE IN CHINA, in finer dept. stores, going for big bucks, and tea sets,and I could go on...
But if your wife was looking for a quilt, as HCQ described, one that was HAND PIECED by someone... then your wife made a mistake, as you said, the quilt had a tag, and described as new.
"the fact that the item was made in China was known by the seller and is relevant to the evaluation of quality and value."
That is certainly true, and the fact that the Chinese have been wearing their quilts for centuries in order to survive the harsh winter climes which are characteristic of their country should give you every confidence in the quality of the product.
posted on August 18, 2000 11:32:36 PM
And while your on the subject of whats made in China
Unless your Grizzly Adams and livin off the land totally, check out some of your stuff in your house.
Hey your computer was put together in the U.S, but the components were most likely made in places like the Philipines, Tawain, Mexico, China, Canada...
I am not reading you 5 x 5 regarding your point(s), but I am trying. Buried in the depths of your confusion, a nugget of value must exist. I'll go get a bigger shovel.
.