posted on June 30, 2005 03:48:53 PM
'lectures' to Black Americans, on how they should be take more responsibility for themselves, and to quit 'being a victim'
I don't have a link, but watched the news, and he is doing 'tough love' type lectures to black communities.
From what I heard so far, it sure makes sense.
On the news, some black orginization wanted an apology from Mr Cosby, and I am not sure what for.
If anyone has links to what he does say at these things, any transcripts of what he says, would be great.
posted on June 30, 2005 08:41:33 PM
I applaud what Cosby is trying to do. Hope some listen and grow up, take responsibility and quit blaming others for where they are in life.
But there are those who defend the 'victim' role and want to place the blame on everyone else other than those who should be taking personal responsibility for their own actions, decisions, etc.
I hope he's successful in this project he's giving his time and energy to. Others have just written them [as a group] off....as a lost cause...because THEY won't make the necessary changes they need to make in order to be successful.
-------
and from that article:
just as I said in the other thread...about drop-outs...
[i]He has lambasted "lower-economic people," parents who spend more on athletic shoes than education, and children who use poor English and curse constantly. He has said blacks need to stop blaming whites and take control of their children and their communities.
"Nine hundred kids enter many of these high schools, and 35 walk out with diplomas," Cosby told the St. Louis Post-Dispatch.
"The rest are in prison, pregnant or wandering around doing nothing."
Critics have dubbed it the "Blame the Poor Tour," and blasted Cosby's remarks as hurtful and stereotypical.
Martin asked Cosby about those criticisms.
"I would say they are trying to move away from the problem," Cosby said. "They're trying to deal me some cards other than the hand that I'm talking about. I don't talk about the television set that works. I call the mechanic about that one that's broken."
[ edited by Linda_K on Jun 30, 2005 08:45 PM ]
posted on June 30, 2005 10:39:34 PM
Thanks Bear for posting the link.
I think he's doing a good thing. How much it will have an impact? No telling.
Like I said, there was someone from some African American orginization that wanted and apology from Cosby. I doubt he'll give one. He sounds pretty set on what he is saying.
I agree with what he says. And to add, that everyone needs to take personal responsibility.
I think this thread is one that most wouldn't want to touch.
posted on June 30, 2005 11:13:26 PM
NearTheSea - It's not so much that as we, not too long ago, had this same discussion on Cosby and his project. Maybe even two threads about it.
And in one of those other threads I agreed that the same applied to all races. But for now it's the black race that is struggling the most with dropping out of school...higher unemployment rates...out of wedlock babies with multiple partners...etc.
At least Cosby is trying to point them in the right direction so their lives might, one day, be better than they are currently.
"Whenever the nation is under attack, from within or without, liberals side with the enemy. This is their essence." --Ann Coulter
And why the American Voters chose to RE-elect President Bush to four more years. YES!!!
[ edited by Linda_K on Jun 30, 2005 11:15 PM ]
posted on July 1, 2005 01:43:52 PM
Personally, I think it's easy for a multi-millionaire to tell poor people that they're playing victim roles, no matter what colour they are. In case Mr. Cosby hadn't noticed, there are many successful black people and with that comes the money to educate and look after their children. The problem is how to educate the poor, not just blacks, so they can become self-sufficient, taking away the need to steal and sell drugs for an income.
posted on July 1, 2005 01:54:30 PMthe problem is how to....
there's no problem....the solutions have been mentioned for years and years. They just aren't listening.
Stay in school...and quit producing babies would be a GREAT start to end the cycle of poverty the poor find themselves in. THEY have to take responsibility for their own choices, just like Cosby's telling them.
"Whenever the nation is under attack, from within or without, liberals side with the enemy. This is their essence." --Ann Coulter
And why the American Voters chose to RE-elect President Bush to four more years. YES!!!
posted on July 1, 2005 02:34:12 PM
kraft, wasn't Cosby himself born into a low income family? Do you think it was easy for him, a black man to become as successful as he is now?
I know opinions are going to be against this, but everyone (black, white whatever) have the same resources; scholarships, etc. I know, you can argue that not everyone can qualify for that. But there are some kids that work there way through college. My daughter did. And I think then we would be considered middle class, but I just didn't have the all the money. I paid half and she got a student loan on her own, and since has paid it off herself, she also worked PT through school. She wanted to, to have extra money, gas etc.
My youngest (now 23 and a mother ) dropped out, and when she was 18, she signed herself in to Job Corp, herself, because by then she knew she screwed up. And at 18 they do not look at the parents income, so it was free, and is free to young people ages 16 to 21, maybe its 24, not sure. That place really turned her around, and when she got out, she was working in a bank, and worked there for a few years, and up until her 8 month of pregnancy.
She is back to work PT, and I watch the baby. I'm sure she will go back FT when the baby is in kindergarten.
I do believe there are a lot of resources for everyone. They need to go to school, they need to get in and start talking to counselors and other adults for what is out there for them after HS
Ok, I will probaby hear it now, that there still will be 'victims' and young people that just can't do the things above.
All people, young people, first have to STOP thinking they are victims.
posted on July 1, 2005 02:49:53 PM
I agree KD..it isn't something as simple as telling the kids to get an education and stop making babies etc..
My daughter taught in an inner-city school system, a choice she made.. and a little bragging here, she made teacher of the year twice in 6 years of teaching there..
The stories she told me about how the little ones were being raised or not raised made it very clear to me, why so many of these youth stood very little chance of breaking from a pattern of poverty and despair..
So many in her classes were either being raised by a grand parent or an auntie because one or both parents were in prison or had their parental rights taken away for one thing or another..Others had parents who were uneducated at best, and retarded at worse.
The ones being raised by relatives often were neglected as the relatives didn't have the education or the smarts, the inclination or the strength to help and guide them..and in many instances they were caring for several kids while in their senior years.
They would come to school filthy, smelling of urine soaked clothes and worse.. and many with psychological problems from what they had experienced in their few short years of life.. They received no help outside of school, no guidance, no encouragement and faced prejudice and disdain from their fellow students on a daily basis..
My daughter said she could see by the time they reached 4th or 5th grade, that they had lost all hope, had become hardened to the harshness of the only reality they had experienced and from then on, she said in most cases they had given up and started on the only path they knew..the one they had learned from their environment...they were defeated before the age of 12..
Now, before I am asked what I would do to change this.. I haven't the answers, but I do know that this will continue until the chain is broken..many of you don't agree with Social programs, but in this case, I can see it must be the only way to stop this
pattern...The kids must be given a chance, the way it is now.. they will only repeat what they know...jmho.. Maggie
posted on July 1, 2005 04:49:32 PM
maggie - Exactly what 'social programs' are you suggesting might change this pattern around? The ones we have used for three generations now, that haven't done anything except make them MORE dependent on government and enable them to NOT start taking personal responsibility?
I don't think many would deny the existance of the children your daughter taught....but what is argued, and rightfully so, imo, is that it's NOT "whities" fault. We're NOT the ones causing/allowing this neglect to happen....the parents or the children's caregivers are.
Why, in your opinion, do you appear to support allowing them this neglect on the part of these children?
Is not excusing this total lack of responsibility actually enabling the problem to continue even longer?
posted on July 1, 2005 05:08:27 PM
But don't you think Cosby is wrong to make this a "black" issue when it's really a poverty issue that affects all races? First and foremost, all people should have access to free birth control. Ones that can afford it should pay. It all stems from having children you can't afford. It would be a good start, imo.
posted on July 1, 2005 05:18:23 PM
What Bill is saying applies to everyone who doesn't take advantage of what this country has to offer. I have seen people who came here with nothing and in a few years have a job, home, and future. Americans have an advantage already by knowing the language.
My ex's family would sit around all day, collecting their checks, having kids, getting into trouble. They would ask my ex how he got his great job. All he did was apply, pay his dues and had himself a good future (till I left) ha ha.
posted on July 1, 2005 08:05:21 PM
::But don't you think Cosby is wrong to make this a "black" issue when it's really a poverty issue that affects all races?::
But he is not addressing poverty Krafty. He is adressing the negative aspects of black culture. He's talking to black people that are not taking responsibility for their lives. He's not talking to the poor, he's talking to his community pointing out the backwards momentum that is setting them back and bringing the reasons for this negative momentum to the forefront. If you spend time within the black community you come to realize that everything he is saying is so true. The young girls are growing up with absent fathers and mothers working to make a home and they are lonely and they are starved for attention and they are having babies so that there is something for them to love that loves them back. And then you have two or three in group that have babies and the others feel left out (I kid you not - I have watched it happen with the social packs of two of my friends daughters) and they start wanting babies so that they can fit in. For the boys it's some point of honor, look how many little ones are going to carry on their name and since the mothers never sue for child support they get all the bragging rights with none of the responsibility. Now you got a bunch of young girls, not half way thru highschool with a baby to take care, they are not finishing school, their kids are growing up in the same atmoshphere and it's all starting over again. One of the girls that used to work at the salon came in the other day proud as can be showing off her new grandchild. No big deal, nothing unusual right... except next month she will celebrate her 32th birthday.
Do you really think that someone should not be pointing out that this is just flat out wrong and that the time for sugar coating it is over. And don't you think that if someone is going to speak frankly to this generation it should be someone that has been there and rather than done that, did something a different and created something positive not just for himself but for as many others around him as he could.
Look how many people he employed over the years. How many young black actors got a start thanks to him, how many black technical workers got a leg up in production because he insisted on it. If anyone has a right to tell the black community to get their act together he does. He may be a millionaire but it was not because he was born into it, it's because he worked for it. He fought for it. And he fought a great deal more prejudice at the time than people are today.
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
No, I'm saying -- I'm merely -- I'm saying what I'm saying. I don't know why I'm always having people say, are you trying to say -- you know what you can do if you want to know what I'm saying is listen to what I'm saying. What I'm saying is what I said ...
- Ann Coulter
[ edited by fenix03 on Jul 1, 2005 08:07 PM ]
posted on July 1, 2005 08:17:38 PM
Lindak: maggie - Exactly what 'social programs' are you suggesting might change this pattern around The ones we have used for three generations now, that haven't done anything except make them MORE dependent on government and enable them to NOT start taking personal responsibility?
Obviously what programs we have in place are not doing much good to turn the situation around. And if they continue on as is.. we will face the same problems with the next generation. I'm all for the parents taking their responsibility..but if they are in prison or have burned their brains on drugs..then someone else has to help these little children.. or they will follow their parents in the same pattern.
Lindak: I don't think many would deny the existence of the children your daughter taught....but what is argued, and rightfully so, imo, is that it's NOT "whities" fault We're NOT the ones causing/allowing this neglect to happen....the parents or the children's caregivers are.
No of course it isn't the fault of "Whites" the fault is that of a generation of people who for a number of reasons have opted out..
again.. we are not to blame, we didn't cause this to happen.. but unless we do something to stop this cycle it will just continue..
if we turn our backs and say "hey, it's not our fault, or not our responsibility, let the parents take responsibility.. we might as well throw the babies out with the bath water..because it is to late for them..
No one is saying it's fair on the rest of us to have to shoulder their burden, but we can't allow the babies to suffer for the the actions of the parents.
Now.. how to achieve this is a good question..one that I don't have the solution for..but you can be darn sure that shouting at the parents to buck-up and take responsibility...isn't going to do a bit of good..imo
posted on July 1, 2005 09:23:33 PM
I agree that shouting does no good but convincing them that that is what needs to happen is. this is not a problem that solves itself in one genreration but if this generation changes it's attitude a little, that is passed to the next generation that changes a bit more and the pattern falls apart and a new one is started. There is no quick fix but the one thing for sure is that no fix occures until the people involved start seeing the need for one and work towards it.
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
No, I'm saying -- I'm merely -- I'm saying what I'm saying. I don't know why I'm always having people say, are you trying to say -- you know what you can do if you want to know what I'm saying is listen to what I'm saying. What I'm saying is what I said ...
When people are so poor that basic needs such as housing and food are paramount in their daily struggle, attempts to broaden their horizons with silly pep talks are futile. The low income people that he is lambasting have been denied a good education for over two hundred years. Attempting to gloss over that problem with an appeal to these black people to speak good English is putting the cart before the horse.
posted on July 2, 2005 08:31:19 AM
So are you saying it is justifable to not be able to speak properly and to attempt to make something one's self? Just continue on the socail programs where there is nothing that pushes them up and out?
People need to be held accountable to themselves firs and foremost.
posted on July 2, 2005 08:46:43 AMThe low income people that he is lambasting have been denied a good education for over two hundred years
No Helen they haven't been denied a good education. What do you base that on?
They have to go to school to get that education. Citizens pay taxes so that every child has a chance to get that education but they have to go to get it, it won't come to them.
You don't need money to educate all they need to do is go to school. Which BTW is free.
So you are saying our school systems are no good? Why are we paying high teacher salaries. Why are school districts hiring good teachers? Am I missing something here? Do we have a failed educational system or do we have a failed willing to learn?
The taxpayers give the poor free breakfast, and lunch because we know that you can't learn on an empty stomach. I have heard no complaints about that.
While working at the voting booth we had the opportunity to talk to a Chinese Educator that was here looking over our educational system. I asked him how many hours a day do children in China have to attend school. He said they go from 7:30-5. No exceptions. Then they go home eat supper and have to spend another 2 hours on homework. Now you wonder why the Chinese are getting ahead of us in education.
Many of our children are out walking the streets. They complain when they have to go to school for 4 hours. We are getting to be a lazy society and guess what other countries are passing us by.
Maggie, What do we (citizens)do take these children from their homes? Tell us how do you stop the cycle? Any suggestions. I have one. Stop the children that are wearing $200.00 nike tennis shoes and the leather sports jackets costing $300.00. Gold Jewelry. Many have cars. Stop spending their money on useless things. Now I am not saying all are doing that but when you look at the children on the streets, whether black or white that is what you see.
Better yet stop having children if they can't support them. If you can't stop sexually active girls or women then they need a visit to Planned parenthood.
posted on July 2, 2005 09:29:41 AMThank you once again Helen, for understanding and stating what I have difficulty expressing.
Libra: Am I missing something here Do we have a failed educational system or do we have a failed willing to learn?
Libra the part you and others are missing and the part I seem to be having so hard a time trying to explain, perhaps, you have to see or experience first hand.
Little children 6-10 are not self reliant they need their basic needs met...and YES[/] the parents are responsible and [b]YES they should be forced to meet their responsibilities, and YES our government programs have failed, and NO it will not change over night, and NO we can not ignore the innocent babies caught in the middle and allow them to suffer as we justify our actions by saying...it not our fault..
posted on July 2, 2005 09:48:07 AM
maggie - The biggest problem I have with what you and helen advocate is that it's enabling the behavior to continue.
That's one of the reasons I so agreed with the welfare changes put into effect during the clinton administration.
It requires them to 'step up to the plate' and attempt to care for themselves. It set a time-line on how long they have to 'better' themselves....and it expects them to do so.
I think more of the 'tough love' programs work [just as welfare reform did], rather the adding more social programs that just encourages more government dependence.
----
And I also disagree with helen's statement .....because ALL children in America have the same opportunity to get an education. Because they're choosing to drop-out of school....is lack of parental responsibility. And that's one of the things Cosby's is addressing to his race.
----
I agree, on the whole, they don't get the support from home to attend and strive to do well....but that's NOT the fault of the school system nor a sign that they don't have the exact same opportunities that other children do.
And to see proof of that one only has to look at the other races, Asians especially, coming into our country to see even with a language issue they often have to overcome, they're taking advantage of our public schools to get ahead....unlike the groups Cosby's talking to. They want to play 'victim'....the others want to and do take advantage of what's offered here in the US.
"Whenever the nation is under attack, from within or without, liberals side with the enemy. This is their essence." --Ann Coulter
And why the American Voters chose to RE-elect President Bush to four more years. YES!!!
posted on July 2, 2005 12:05:25 PM
Lindak, I think either I am not expressing myself clearly enough or I am being misunderstood. I believe we are agreeing on this subject.. I am not in favor of enabling this kind of behavior. I am all for stricter regulations etc. I want to see people self sufficient. I am not in favor of social programs that do nothing to change the situation but rather feed or enable people to remain in the system..
I disagree however, that every child has the same opportunity for an education. You can't tell me that the little ones who's basic needs aren't being met at home, are on an equal footing with those who's are..
I am sick and tired of the blame game too, even though the basis for their argument has some validity in it's roots..and you are correct in saying that they will have to stop thinking as victims before they can succeed..
We are all a product of our upbringing to some extent and the primary goal and responsibility of a parent is to prepare the child with the tools necessary to be self reliant and to become productive members of society...
all I am saying is that the children must not be blamed for being born into a situation which they have no control over..but rather given a chance to break out of the mold while they are in those formative years, when they can still be molded..
posted on July 2, 2005 02:01:41 PM
Fenix, I understand what you mean but I feel that ALL of it stems from poverty. The deadliest thing for a poor person to do is have chidren. I agree with Helen that all the tough love speeches in the world won't mean diddly until they stop having children. That's what Cosby should be talking about. What worries me is if people refuse to listen to this advice, we will have to find some radical way of implimenting birth control so this chain of poverty stops.
posted on July 2, 2005 06:12:20 PM "I agree with Helen that all the tough love speeches in the world won't mean diddly until they stop having children"
Actually, KD, I didn't mention birth control but I agree that Cosby's message is rude, demeaning and without any value.
posted on July 2, 2005 06:44:35 PM
Sorry Helen - the "I agree with Helen that all the tough love speeches in the world won't mean diddly" was what I meant. The "stop having children" part was only my added opinion.
posted on July 2, 2005 10:23:00 PM
::Fenix, I understand what you mean but I feel that ALL of it stems from poverty.::
I don't think you are necessarily right. These people that I know are not living in poverty. These are girls wearing Baby Phat clothes and carrying Vuiton bags whose mothers are making a couple hundred a day doing hair. The problem is not a lack of money, it's a lack of identity. They don't know who they are or who they are supposed to be and for some reason they are identifying with the lowest common denominator. One of the girls is 16 and we are all battling to keep her on a decent path. Her mom works her butt off to support her and her little sister and to pay for her additional academic courses. She's a high school Jr, honor roll, and smart as a whip and mom has to put the birth control pill in her hand every morning because she has decided that all her friends babies are so damn cute she wants one too.
To say that this is an attitude that is taken on only by the poor poor put upon minority that never gets a break is to rely on a stereotype that is even more insulting than some people find Cosby's statements to be. It's funny to see comments such as Helen's after sitting in a salon and listening to the actual people that Cosby is addressing all agreeing with him. OK, almost all, inevitably there is some little Jr banger in there who starts complaining and preaching from the "I had to go this route" book, but he is generally quickly schooled and shuts up.
None of those girls in that salon went to college, half didn't get thru high school but they used a skill the learned growing up to make enough money to go to cosmetology school and got their licenses and they are making a life for themselves and their kids trying hard to teach their kids how to take it the next step. The last thing they want is someone telling their kids that they are victims of a cruel society and because of they they don't need to concentrate on how they speak and the way they say things and that they shouldn't expect to be able to achieve great things. They know better.
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
No, I'm saying -- I'm merely -- I'm saying what I'm saying. I don't know why I'm always having people say, are you trying to say -- you know what you can do if you want to know what I'm saying is listen to what I'm saying. What I'm saying is what I said ...
It surprises me that you would find my comment "funny to see", fenix. I thought that was only Linda's tactic. The fact that blacks are victims of a long history of poverty based problems and social ills is not funny. I would say that it's unfortunate that any black American agrees with Cosby's use of racist stereotypes to attempt to blame poverty entirely on the individual. The fact that your few girls in the salon agree with Cosby is an indication of their lack of education and resignation to the status quo, It's an attitude that Cosby is attempting to attack but with a method that will not work. When a significant number of people in a society are living in poverty, the system is not working.
Cosby states, "Five, six children – same woman – eight, 10 different husbands or whatever. Pretty soon you are going to have DNA cards to tell who you are making love to. You don't know who this is. It might be your grandmother. I am telling you, they're young enough! Hey, you have a baby when you are 12; your baby turns 13 and has a baby. How old are you? Huh? Grandmother! By the time you are 12 you can have sex with your grandmother, you keep those numbers coming. I'm just predicting."
That remark can only be described as racist denegration.
posted on July 3, 2005 07:29:50 AM
You have yet to make your point helenjw, all you have done is yourself insult the very people you claim to be supporting.
While entitled to your opinion, it is refreshing to see a black leader stand up and tell people that they need to take some responsibility for their situations. It is a step in the right direction and it should make some wonder why somone would not like to see these people better themselves?
) dropped out, and when she was 18, she signed herself in to Job Corp, herself, because by then she knew she screwed up. And at 18 they do not look at the parents income, so it was free, and is free to young people ages 16 to 21, maybe its 24, not sure. That place really turned her around, and when she got out, she was working in a bank, and worked there for a few years, and up until her 8 month of pregnancy.