posted on May 15, 2006 05:55:00 PM
So, let me get this straight. A temporary guest worker program is supposed to allow illegals to come into the country to work temporarilly but when their card or permit runs out they are supposed to leave on their own and go back to their own country. So, if they don't leave on their own when their permits expire then who is going to round them up and deport them?
posted on May 15, 2006 06:09:53 PM
It will still be up to the INS. Theoretically it will be easier to find them because their work info will be in the system. They will have an official social security number that would be flagged when the visa expired if they had notextended it or moved into the application process for legal residency.
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People put their hand on the bible, and swear to uphold the constitution. They do not put their hand on the constitution, and swear to uphold the bible.
posted on May 15, 2006 06:41:33 PM
Ok but let us now look at it another way. Suppose that at the time that after a guest worker program has been up and running for a few years and several million people who were supposed to return to their own country had not returned, well then what happens?
When someones work permit expires it seems to me that they could easilly disappear and avoid any round up by simply moving to another part of the country or by some such other means that would be very easy for them to carry out to ultimately avoid being deported.
posted on May 15, 2006 07:07:46 PM
The guest worker program is a separate from the program for the millions of illegals that are all ready in the country.
The guest worker program is temporary employment in the U.S. and then the workers returns to their home country.
The program for the 12 to 20 million illegals already here is an Amnesty program. This program for millions of illegals that will let them become U.S. citizens after jumping through a bunch of hoops.
In other words the illegals that are already here can stay here and become U.S. citizens if the sign up and follow the rules to their program.
Simply put anyway you look at it there will be plenty of cheap labor for industry with a WAY to let more cheap labor enter as needed.
SINCE THE U.S. ALREADY MADE TOUGH IMMIGRATIONS LAWS IN 1986 THAT WERE NEVER FUNDED OR ENFORCED. WHO IS GOING TO ENFORCE ANY NEW LAWS???
posted on May 15, 2006 07:17:16 PM
The guest worker program that is being proposed WILL create more illegals, it is inevitable because the workers will not willingly go back to their countries of origin when their temporary work permits expire.
posted on May 15, 2006 09:10:01 PM
Sounds like Bush has won over some Dems but not exactly appealed to the Republican base for his other party members who are going to run for re-election. Darn the bad luck.
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posted on May 16, 2006 02:33:06 PM
They have a border crossing card already. It's imprinted with the persons info and even links to their finger print. Problem was that they invested so much in the card program and then failed to get readers for many of the crosings.
Maybe they should fully implement the programs they already started before trying to start new ones.
(Border crossers are border city residents that have work or tourist type visas that allow them to cross into the US at will to work at their US jobs, go shopping, etc.)
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
People put their hand on the bible, and swear to uphold the constitution. They do not put their hand on the constitution, and swear to uphold the bible.
posted on May 16, 2006 02:58:19 PM
Bush's plan is nothing more than beaurocratic BS, as was McCain's/Kennedy's plan.
What needs to happen is that every single person who came here illegally should head straight back to where they came from. They chose to break the law to come here, and they should be rounded up and sent back.
Sure, I'm gonna piss off some liberals by stating it, but the truth of the matter is that these so called plans that the President and Congress are presenting are nothing more than a means to 1) create an indentured servitude system for huge corporations to pay less and less in order to increase profits while using an excuse, "Mexicans will do work that Americans won't do". The real reason is that Mexicans (and not only Mexicans) will do work for less money than Americans will do. Pay an American what they are worth and see how many you'll find to do the work. That is the poorest excuse I have heard. I can think of plenty of Americans willing to jump in to clean and repair our sewer systems on a regular basis because they get paid enough to do so. Pay them minimum wage or less and see who will be volunteering to do the job. 2) it invalidates the hard work and dedication it took for every single person who came to this country legally, went through the grueling system of becoming a citizen, only to find out others could simply cheat the system.
posted on May 16, 2006 03:57:23 PM
When illegals or worker on temp permit cant find job in the country,they will have a hard time justifying being here.
I know after 911,some of the illegals went home so they can conserve their hard earned greenback.The greenback goes a lot further in their own country,since there is no work in sight,why pay US rent and US food bills??
This is probably OT,there was a time where immigrants went home voluntarily and lived on their ss check like a king-Italy,Mexico,anywhere in the world!
/ lets all stop whining !! /
posted on May 17, 2006 01:14:15 AM
I like the part about finally putting the NG on the border. But do wish it would be double or triple the numbers proposed.
As far as the rest goes...neither party would go for a 'find, hold and then deport' position...it would be political suicide.
So...either the House is going to agree to let them remain....'standing in that second line'...or this will not get passed at all. And we'll be back to where we were before this all started.
Those who think we can't deport 11-14 million illegals are wrong, imo. As they are caught....just hold them...then deport them in the groups as they are found. No need to do it all at once. In a couple of years I'd bet we'd have sent at least 1/2 of them back. But no...that too would tick off the political supporters on both sides of the aisle...so that won't be happening either.
Another way would be to put VERY heavy fines on employers who are found to be employing illegals. If they were big enough....employers would hire legals and the illegal market would dry up on it's own. And with more border protection...the two together should put a huge dent in the problem.
From what I've read...the Senate sounds like it agrees with what Bush proposed in his most recent speech. It the house that's going to have some BIG arguments about letting the illegals take a place towards the front of the line where the people who have been waiting, didn't come in illegally, will be behind the law breakers.
Then they'd have to wait even MORE years until their turn is up to enter. NOT the fair way to do it, imo.
Plus from other articles I've read....IF we go with the proposal the President made....we'll have 1/3 of our population will be mexican immigrants in short order. HUGE immigration of poor people. And guess who will be taxed to support them?
posted on May 17, 2006 06:50:06 AM
So,what are they going to do with all the illegal immigrants who are already in this country for years and established with family and work??
I know the Mexicans pretty much take over the lawn mowning business here,they all have their tools of trade with that open truck and I am sure they save and save to buy them.
Will they be deported??
/ lets all stop whining !! /
posted on May 17, 2006 08:17:11 AM
Hwa - They have to pay back taxes (or provide prrof that taxes were deducted from their checks at the time) and a fine and then they can begin the process of applying for citizenship.
I like how the president said they would have to stand behind those who are taking the legal route (as in they get higher priority to fill the available slots) but didn't mention the proposal to drastically increase the quota of residencies and citizenship that will be granted. They may have to go to the back of the line, but that line will be moving alot faster.
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People put their hand on the bible, and swear to uphold the constitution. They do not put their hand on the constitution, and swear to uphold the bible.
posted on May 17, 2006 08:36:06 AM
"So,what are they going to do with all the illegal immigrants who are already in this country for years and established with family and work??
I know the Mexicans pretty much take over the lawn mowning business here,they all have their tools of trade with that open truck and I am sure they save and save to buy them."
they should sell their tools and trucks on Ebay and buy a one way ticket back to Mexico.
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If you dont want to hear the truth....dont ask the question.
posted on May 17, 2006 08:44:10 AM
::Those who think we can't deport 11-14 million illegals are wrong, imo. As they are caught....just hold them...then deport them in the groups as they are found. No need to do it all at once. In a couple of years I'd bet we'd have sent at least 1/2 of them back.::
Lets see.... lets go with 12 million illegals... cut that number in half to represent sending half of them back... divide by 712 to represent two years... divide that by 68 to represent the number of people you can fit on a typical school bus once you include guards and you get.... 124 bus trips to accomplish that goal you state Linda.
I'm thinking that's not quite ralistic. Somehow I don't see nearly 8500 being picked up on a daily basis do you? And I dont think anyone is going to approve the budget that pays for the Border Patrol to multiply it's manpower by about 10 to pay for the round up and the guards and drivers for those 124 bus trips or to purchase and upkeep 400 or so busses to keep up that schedule. Hell, the fuel alone is $25 million a year.
Since you believe that a complete round up and deportation is actually possible. Why don't you sit back and crunch some numbers and show us realistically how you think it can be done. I think you'll agree that your first proposal missed the mark.
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
People put their hand on the bible, and swear to uphold the constitution. They do not put their hand on the constitution, and swear to uphold the bible.
posted on May 17, 2006 09:45:21 AM
I would really like to see some numbers crunched on what it is costing us to have all these illegals here taking advantage of health care, schooling, food stamps and all the rest of the burdens that they add to our society.
posted on May 17, 2006 10:01:07 AM
Pi - And then off set those costs with the taxes that are paid not refunded at the end of the year as those of other low wage workers and the billions paid into the social security and medicaid systems. In 2002 alone social security etimates that illegals paid 1.54 billion into Medicaid and 7 billion into Social Security.
Then you have the sales tax and gas tax and sin taxes that they pay into their communities...
Lots of people quote the gross costs but no one ever seems to quote net.
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
People put their hand on the bible, and swear to uphold the constitution. They do not put their hand on the constitution, and swear to uphold the bible.
posted on May 17, 2006 10:07:30 AM
Ok and then calculate the dollar figures of money being sent out of the country that will help to boost the economies of other countries rather than the US where the money was earned in the first place.
posted on May 17, 2006 10:42:03 AM
Why is it our busines how they spend their disposable income? Is it the governments business how you spend yours?
I'm sorry but that arguement is just plain lame. They worked, they earned the money, they paid the taxes and it's no one's businees what they do what is left with what is left over.
If you stick 25% of your income under your mattress are you guilty of damaging your community?
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People put their hand on the bible, and swear to uphold the constitution. They do not put their hand on the constitution, and swear to uphold the bible.
posted on May 17, 2006 11:40:22 AM
Fenix, my arguement is not if it's right or wrong what they can or cannot do with their money but simply a fact that alot of the money that they earn is sent out of the US and it is helping to boost the economy of a foreign country.
I've managed several businesses and early on I had a rubber stamp made up that I used to stamp all invoices with. It said, Please pay us so we can pay them so they can pay him so he can pay you. If you think about it, what these illegals are doing is breaking the chain of the money flow in the different communities that they are living illegally in and sapping the economies of these different communities of money that would otherwise go towards boosting our economy.
A little bit of money sent out of the country may not have a detremental effect but when we are talking about billions of dollars then it has a huge effect on our economy.
It's been said alot recently in the news that Vincente Fox should help us out with our illegal alien problem but I believe the main reason he doesn't is because of all the US dollars being sent back to Mexico by compatriot Mexican workers in the US.
Alright, so now lets take a look at the burden that this causes on our economy. Besides having money leaving the country that would otherwise be spent on goods and services in the US it means that they don't have enough money to adequately house themselves or pay for heath care, etc. So what do they do to counteract this personal deficit? They put a further burden on us by taking advantage of the system and all the charitable and humanitarian programs set up for low income families that are supposed to help US citizens but because no one that is hurting can be turned away, we accept them in these programs and help them out, even though they could help themselves if they hadn't sent their money to a foreign land to help their families there.
Try looking at the bigger picture and read between the lines of what we are being told in the media and you will see what is really going on.
posted on May 17, 2006 11:48:16 AM
Pi - the difference is that I see that for every person that is working here and sending a percentage of their earnings home that's 2 or three or more that are not trying to come here.
You are viewing it from a stictly nationalist view point and I am looking at it from a humanitarian view point.
In doing so I am not ignoring the best interests of this nation. For instance, all those funds that illegals are paying into Social Security but will never be eligible to draw from are going to keep the system alive for that much longer.
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
People put their hand on the bible, and swear to uphold the constitution. They do not put their hand on the constitution, and swear to uphold the bible.
posted on May 17, 2006 12:40:15 PM
I think I understand your humanitairian viewpoint. I am not totally without compassion for these people and I understand the reasons why they have come here in the first place. In their place I believe I would have done the same thing but being as that's not the case and I am a US citizen and they aren't then I have to look at it from a viewpoint of, ok call it nationalism if you want.
Being as I live in a border state and have all my life i've been forced to deal with illegals in business from time to time and most of them that I have met and gotten to know really are nice people but on the whole I don't want them here because of the effect that they are having on our economy. I would probably feel otherwise if they were to go through the proper channels to become bonified and legal US citizens but if they are just here to take advantage of the system and bleed it dry then them being here does no one any good.
I'm just trying to look at the bigger picture here and what we are looking at down the road in a few years.
Here's another effect that they are having on our economy. Because they are willing to work for lower wages they are devaluing our jobs and making it so that any citizen that wants to do certain jobs cannot because the amount paid is now lower than what one can live on. They are able to live on low wages because they are also willing to live together, sometimes with many families in the same small apartment, thus making each persons rent portion smaller. I'm not willing to move in with fifteen other people just to get by and I believe that you aren't either.
By devaluing our jobs they are causing a further divide between the rich and poor and the middle class are disappearing (that part should make peepa happy). Albeit it's a slow process but nevertheless it is happening and it has to come to a stop eventually or our economy will crash and then where will we be.
When right out of high school I started working construction with a stucco application company and I got pretty good at it. I worked my way up from the bottom, pushing a wheelbarrow and mixing the stuff to becoming an applicator but as time went on I started noticing that it was getting harder to find work and to live on the wages being paid. Rather than wages going up they slowly dropped and that caused me to look elsewhere for another career. Another reason why I couldn't find work as a stucco applicator was because I didn't speak enough Mexican. Now all the stucco companies here only hire Mexicans and they look upon a US citizen wanting to do that type of work as crazy or something. The point is that if something was done early on to stem the tide of illegals back then, then who knows where I might have gone with my then chosen career. Who knows, I might have even been able to start my own stucco company and employ dozens of other US citizens and pay them all a living wage.
posted on May 17, 2006 12:51:49 PM
This sad and tired arguement that people use that the illegals are taking jobs that no one else wants is bulls*t. Even Bush said this in his speech and he is full of it if that's what he really thinks. The real question when talking about jobs that the illegals are taking should be, are you willing to give up your job so that an illegal can have it?
ed to add; The politicians don't have to worry about their jobs, for now but their time will come because if you remember the slogan that some of the illegal demonstrators used was something like, today we march, tomorrow we vote. and if you wanna add to that slogan by saying, next year we run for office. Then we will really be in trouble if they ever get the power to legislate and pass laws.
ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø ø¤º°`°º¤ø
[ edited by piinthesky on May 17, 2006 01:13 PM ]
posted on May 17, 2006 01:23:54 PM
"This sad and tired arguement that people use that the illegals are taking jobs that no one else wants is bulls*t."
If thats the case,put the people that are on wefare and make them do the jobs instead of sitting on there mangy ass's all day with their finger up their butt.
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If you dont want to hear the truth....dont ask the question.
