posted on November 15, 2000 04:52:34 PM
If you're sick and tired of hearing about the Presidential election, you might as well stop reading now <grin>
Seriously, I've been thinking about this quite a bit. I'm an admitted Gore fan but neither party is without fault here. Both sides have valid points. And just ONCE, I'd like to see a politician of either party admit that neither side is completely right (but that's another thread).
For example, I don't think it's *fair* to manually re-count the votes just in Broward and Palm Beach. I'm not saying the democrats are doing anything illegal in pushing for this but - since these are democratic counties - a manual recount will yield more votes for Gore (almost definitely enough to swing the election to him). The republicans are wrong trying to block it though - they had no problem accepting manual recounts from counties that yielded more votes for Bush. To be fair, Florida should manually re-count *all* the counties. But - from what I understand - a request for a manual recount has to be made within a certain time limit and the republicans neglected to do so.
On the other hand, I don't think it's *fair* that Gore didn't get the votes he was meant to in Palm Beach. Forget the 19,000 double-punched votes, at least 2,000 of the Buchanan votes were really meant for Gore. Buchanan even says as much and all the statistical analysis I've read have convinced me that it's true. The ballot design was not *meant* to be confusing but evidently it was. Legally Gore does not deserve those votes but morally they're his - he should have won the election on Nov. 7th.
Also, I don't think it's *fair* that Gore - the winner of the nationwide popular vote - might not win the election. I understand all about the electoral college but the winner of the popular vote *should* win the election.
My personal opinion is that hand counting ballots is the most accurate.
Therefore, I think the only fair thing at this point is a hand count of all ballots in all counties.
Even though all of the legalese is starting to wear on me, I am glad that our system does not allow Florida's Secretary of State to have the last word.
IF she had not co-chaired with brother Jeb;
IF she had not donated $35,000 to the Bush campaign;
IF she had not stumped for Bush in NH;
IF I thought she didn't have political ambitions once her office becomes an appointed position at the end of 2002...
I would have a lot more confidence in her decisions.
posted on November 16, 2000 10:14:04 AM
Current reports seem to show us heading for a real mess.
i.e.
They seem to indicate upwards of 9,000 uncounted ballots.
A strongly partisan Florida official chooses to exercise her discretion to declare the issue over on a 300 vote margin.
If that's how things end up standing then we have a major appearance of illegitimacy.
It appears that all it would take is Ms Harris' discretion to allow the current counts to complete. Bush partisans cannot accept that as it looks likely to put Gore in office. Most would consider it fair to apply the same treatment throughout the state, but there appears to be no legal framework to do so.
It looks like we are doomed to resolution of these issues in the courts to noone's satisfaction and a big cloud over whichever candidate eventually takes office.
posted on November 16, 2000 11:53:56 AM
Does anyone think it was dishonest of Gore to publically offer Bush a recount of the entire state of Florida?
This recount of the state is not only illegal under the laws of Florida, but is not now, nor has it ever been, his to offer.
It was an obvious PR move to deceive the voters of America into thinking he was being not only fair, but magnanimous, IMO.
Kinda reminded me of the clear-eyed and movingly sincere..."I did not have sex with that woman." Of course, he has been hanging out with that guy for a long time now. And Daley too, of course.
posted on November 16, 2000 11:59:32 AM
toke - lemme guess, you're a Republican?
No, I don't think it was dishonest of Gore. I think a full recount of the state of Florida would be the only fair way to determine who really won the election, whether that's legally sanctioned in Florida or not.
posted on November 16, 2000 12:05:55 PM
Ha...no, I'm not a Republican! I didn't vote for either of these men. The thing is, Gore didn't say he thought a recount of the state would be a good idea that he'd support. He offered it as part of his deal...purely to look good on the evening news.
Is a false promise a lie? Semantics, I suppose. I do find it dishonest.
posted on November 16, 2000 12:14:14 PM
Both candidates are dishonest. I predict, with 100% certainty, that the final outcome of this mess will be a dishonest/scumball president.
posted on November 16, 2000 12:18:01 PM
I think there is a chance that he would have still made the offer if it were possible that a recount could be done and that Bush would agree to it. However... since it seems likely he knew that neither of those conditions would apply, that makes the offer a no-lose proposition for him, and to me, it comes off as more of a PR stunt than anything else.
There is a lot of talk about "the will of the people" these days, but I believe there are many involved in this situation who are looking no further ahead than their next elected or appointed position, and their (in)actions seem to reflect that. Sorry.
If this the best the Republicans and Democrats can offer for the most powerful political position on earth, then conditions are very ripe for a backlash - the real growth over the next 4 years of a viable third party alternative with a credible leader.
posted on November 16, 2000 12:43:01 PM
Oh, yes. I am so ready for a third party...with someone actually electable. I'm not holding my breath...but not giving up hope, either. Our two parties are bloated and exist purely to perpetuate themselves, seems to me. They stand for nothing except whatever the latest polls indicate will garner a vote...or a contribution.
posted on November 16, 2000 12:47:03 PM
In order for a third party to even have a fighting chance, people are going to have to get over the idea that a vote for anyone other than a Republican or Democrat is a vote that is thrown away.
As long as people choose to vote against a candidate they don't like instead of for a candidate whose policies they support, there will be little chance of change.
posted on November 16, 2000 12:56:28 PM
I agree! Any third party candidate is always viewed as the "spoiler" by one party or the other. I remember watching Carvel (sp?) the other day. He was so angry at Nader he said he'd never speak to him, or even look at him again. Maybe the party operatives are getting a little nervous...you think?
posted on November 16, 2000 12:58:01 PM
I would like to see a viable third party also. But the problem with the existing third parties is that they are way off the radar screen when it comes to appealing to the average voter.
For example, the Green party's platform is so off the beaten path that relatively few voters will EVER take them seriously. Ideals are well and good, but if their intent is to actually win a national election at some point they're going to have to deal with a reality check and move toward the center. Like it or not, the Republican and Democratic parties are not that much different when compared to the Green party (which is why the Green party did so poorly in this election). Most Americans tend to lean toward the center (moderate Republicans and moderate Democrats). It's the relatively few on the fringes that can swing an election. But when your entire party is on the fringe, you don't have a chance of getting more than a token result at the polls.
Environmental issues are very important, but for most voters they take a backseat to the more practical matters that the American people face on a daily basis.
And the reform party is so wacked out right now that they need to completely regroup and set a course for the future that appeals to more than just the two splintered factions that comprise the party now. Initially, under Ross Perot, they actually had an outside shot at becoming a viable third party. But egos got in the way and we can all see the results.
posted on November 16, 2000 12:59:53 PMAs long as people choose to vote against a candidate they don't like instead of for a candidate whose policies they support, there will be little chance of change.
posted on November 16, 2000 12:59:55 PMMaybe the party operatives are getting a little nervous...you think?
Well, as much as the Republicans and Democrats seem to dislike each other, I can see where both have a vested interest in making sure they don't have to share the pie with any newcomers.
posted on November 16, 2000 03:57:06 PM
How James Carville and Mary Matalin can be happily married is beyond me. Where is the middle ground?
As for third party politics? I think they need a broader base of appeal to the average American voters.
Gore supporters voted their pocketbooks and so did Bush supporters. There is no question about that. Do you think people voted for Bush or Gore's stance on international policy or trade issues. For cryin' out loud, they vote their best interest and most people BELIEVE their best interest is their purse. Now whether or not one's purse is the be all and end all of one's existence is a whole 'nother kettle of fish and maybe an appropriate topic.
posted on November 16, 2000 04:49:43 PM
[i]Does anyone think it was dishonest of Gore to publically offer Bush a recount of the entire state of Florida?
This recount of the state is not only illegal under the laws of Florida, but is not now, nor has it ever been, his to offer.[/i]
The courts have just said that the Secretary of State has *discretion* in the exercise of her job. Try to convince me that if both these guys showed up at her doorstep jointly agreeing to such a plan she would say no.
And if she did, try to convince me that one court or another wouldn't override her, especially since FL case law (incl. FL Supreme COurt decisions) CLEARLY favor the voter's right to have their vote counted.
I am so ready for a third party...with someone actually electable. I'm not holding my breath...but not giving up hope, either. Our two parties are bloated and exist purely to perpetuate themselves, seems to me. They stand for nothing except whatever the latest polls indicate will garner a vote...or a contribution.