posted on November 15, 2000 04:57:14 PM new
Actually, I like his proposal, especially the part about manually re-counting *all* the counties. That would be fair (IMHO).
Sure, it would take some time but definitely less than two weeks or so. We let the lawyers get more involved and this will be dragging on for years.
posted on November 15, 2000 05:03:19 PM new
Considering that a hand count is what Gore wants anyway, while the Republican position all along has been that hand counts are not as accurate as machine counts and therefore not acceptable, I see no olive branch. What does Gore expect to accomplish with a face-to-face meeting, besides a photo op?
I agree. What a guy.
Any opinions from the crowd on the effect of the (1995?) Palm Beach ruling? Regulation? that says that "pregnant" or "dimpled" chads are NOT to be counted as valid votes will have on the Gore crowd's petition that those ballots be counted?
posted on November 15, 2000 05:14:12 PM new
It sure beats the so-called "offer" that Baker proprosed yesterday, which basically boiled down to "my way or the highway".
It was a great PR move, and as barbarake points out, offers specific timeline for completing the process. If Bush pooh poohs it, it will look like he really does have something to be afraid of.
posted on November 15, 2000 05:23:50 PM new
"while the Republican position all along has been that hand counts are not as accurate as
machine counts and therefore not acceptable"
GW Bush himself takes exception to that position in the state of Texas by enacting a law which gives preference to hand counts over machine counts.
It's only in this situation that he, et al, has altered from their faith in hand counts and that alteration, so sudden, does make it appear, as KatyD so astutely points out, that the Republican campaign may truly have something to hide.
posted on November 15, 2000 05:35:26 PM new
If Mr. Gore has no authority to waive the 72 hour recount request limit, this is merely grandstanding, seeking credit and public support for an ultimately empty gesture.
posted on November 15, 2000 05:46:17 PM new
Gore's speech was a bunch of bull. Really clever bull, but bull nonetheless.
Two people can't agree to go against the law. Gore surely knew this when he wrote his speech. It sounded good, but his proposal to count every Florida county is ridiculous fluff. The Florida statues governing recounts are clear, requests had to be made in a certain timeframe, and that timeframe has long since passed.
The Republicans keep on saying that it's not fair that only Democratic counties will be recounted by hand. Their arguments are completely without merit.
When Florida wrote its statutes setting out the timeframe for requesting recounts, it had no idea if a Republican or Democrat would request them, whether the race contested would be on a county, statewide, or national level. The statues were completely impartial, written for any unknown future candidate to make use of equally. Democrats made use of the remedy provided for under law, Republicans didn't.
I don't understand why the Republicans didn't request for some counties to be recounted within the timeframe for requests to be made. Republicans have just as many lawyers as Democrats.
posted on November 15, 2000 06:00:59 PM new
He's not asking for a recount. That's been done. He's asking that the hand count in questioned areas be completed.
Anyway, Clever BS is better than obvious BS; good BS is better than bad BS.
posted on November 15, 2000 06:24:10 PM new
Yes, he has asked for the hand count to continue, and also, graciously offered to include in the hand count the entire state, knowing full well that he has no authority to make such an offer. So, he gets to look like he is amiable to complying with the will of the people. I will grant that his BS is better than Bush's.
posted on November 15, 2000 06:43:17 PM new
The more interesting news is Florida Sec. of State Kathleen Harris' announcement to not accept any amended vote calculations.
She always reminds me of that wide-mouthed lady in The Lighter Side strip that David Berg does in Mad magazine.
posted on November 15, 2000 07:05:08 PM new
Well then let's make it fair, uaru. let's examine em with a fine tooth comb in Republican counties too! I'd go for that, why won't Bush?
Speaking of Katharine Harris, did anyone expect OTHERWISE from her? Her actions are so partisan and such an abuse of her elected office, I've even had Republicans tell me they think she's blown it. I hope she realizes that she's thrown her political career in the toilet, and after this she will never get elected to so much as DOGCATCHER anywhere. Hope Bush has a plum appointment for her somewhere IF he ends up getting in office. Come to think of it, I bet SHE hopes that too!
posted on November 15, 2000 07:08:41 PM new
Everyone seems to say that Bush is a hypocrite for trying to get the hand counts stopped, after all he signed that hand count bill in TX in '97 right?
If anyone wants to look up that specific law, the law in TX on hand counting, is only if; the canditate asked for a recount, if a candidate asks for one, he can either go for one and only one: Either another machine count, or a manual count. Not both. When that law that Gov Bush signed in TX went into effect along with it, went standards and rules to go with hand counting. Florida, in these certain counties anyway, do not have any precedented standards, and they have been 'making them up as they go'.
Gores just recent statement today was great.
Asking to meet with Bush. Of course if Bush refuses, he can come out looking like the great guy, of course, he asked right?
I don't know what Bush will say. And it looks like he's going to be saying it pretty quick here, so I'm going to go watch it.
posted on November 15, 2000 07:27:11 PM new
Sounds like Bush is through playing games. I agree that the ballot examination by hand is a flawed idea. A machine is impartial, they don't make a decision like "looks dented... they must have wanted to vote for ____".
Enough is enough, let the overseas ballots come in and let the chips fall where they may.
posted on November 15, 2000 07:31:36 PM new
Gov. Bush just spoke, and IMO, did a pretty good job, saying: 'I'll meet with V.P. Gore when the election is over
Not when I win or he wins, but when the election is over
posted on November 15, 2000 08:02:25 PM new
I think Bush looked terrible. He had the "deer in the headlights" look again, it was pitfully obvious that he was reading prepared text from a teleprompter, stumbled over some of the words. It was just really bad. He definitely did not give a "presidential" appearance, and his stiffness and the teleprompter thing just made it look like he can't communicate effectively on his own, and needs to rely on his speechwriters. Heck even HE didn't look like he was believing his own spiel. Complete lack of spontaneity.
And refusing to meet with Gore "until after"...really poor form. This is going to cost him in the public opinion polls.
posted on November 15, 2000 08:10:24 PM new
Nope, KatyD, it sure wasn't any surprise that Katherine Harris said tonight what she said. What I find very amusing is that yesterday she was insistant that she had no discretion. In hardly 24 hours, she's become an expert in the use of the discretion she swore she didn't have.
She's a quick learner, especially for an Agnes Scott graduate (that's a pretty expensive private girl's college down here around Atlanta that offers up a mediocre education, but plenty of deb type amenities.)
Who knows what her employment future is. She'll have to watch her pennies, maybe, all 600 million of them, until she lands something else.
(whoever invented spelling and grammer should be drug out and shot.)
[ edited by donny on Nov 15, 2000 08:13 PM ]
posted on November 15, 2000 08:19:46 PM new
Didn't Bush request, and receive hand-counts in a few counties last week, one of them being Seminole county (a republican leaning county)? It's my understanding that in just Seminole, the hand-count turned up 102 more Bush votes. So why are hand-counts good in some counties, but not other's?
posted on November 15, 2000 08:38:55 PM newthe law in TX on hand counting, is only if; the canditate asked for a recount, if a candidate asks for one, he can either go for one and only one: Either another machine count, or a manual count. Not both.
Shelly -- In Florida, the first re-count was triggered automatically due to the slim margin...Gore had no choice in the matter. NOW he is requesting a hand-count, and election officials in Florida are asking the courts for guidelines on how to do the hand-count.
posted on November 15, 2000 08:52:45 PM new
Katherine Harris, who has said she wants a job in a Bush administration, has actively campaigned for Bush in New Hampshire, is the Co-Chair of the Bush Florida Election Committee, is a major Florida fund-raiser for Bush, and has acted to date to stop or to slow down hand counting in Democratic counties while allowing hand counting in six Republican counties to take place, acting as Florida's Secretary of State, has determined that she will not accept any late votes from Palm Beach, Broward, and Miami-Dade counties. Earlier, a Florida judge has said she had the right to say that all votes after 5 p.m. yesterday were late, but he cautioned her that any decision not to accept votes could not be arbitrary. While this decision will surely be questioned in court and could be overturned, Harris, in effect, has given the
Florida election for president to George W. Bush by preventing the people's complete Florida vote from being counted. If this decision stands, there is little doubt that
Bush has stolen the election, that his four year presidency will be under a cloud, and that he will be the subject of continuous cries of illegitimacy from a significant
number of Americans. If this decision stands, Mr. Bush will be given a hollow crown and will be the subject of constant belittlement from a significan number of Americans. As has been so often the case with Mr. Bush, he simply has no understanding of what he is doing, both to himself, to our system of just elections, and to our concept of presidential governance by the will of the people. In effect, Mr. Bush is neither the winner of the popular vote nor of a fair and just electoral college, and he will become president only by an unjust decision by a key member of his campaign team.
posted on November 15, 2000 08:53:32 PM new
Julesy, yes the first recount was mandatory, and neither candidate had any say. When Gore asked for the hand counts, or rather, Gores people, they didn't have any standards to govern on how to proceed with them. So they are asking how to do it now.
I know everyone has there opinions, and everyones is going to disagree with something in all this.
Why is Bush protesting? I still am of the opinion that hand counting is biased, and machines are not. Sure machines are going to err, but so will humans. But to err on which side. No one yet has accused the counters of messing with the ballots. But with no standards of yet, as you said they are asking for some guidelines, time is passing.
I still think that the majority of people are getting tired of the dragging on of all this.
Right now, in only my opinion I would like to see it over, whoever it is going to be, I'm sure Florida would like it to be over.
I'm still really surprised to hear some people, (there are talk shows here, one a more Republican one, one Democratic ) a talk show host that is a Democrat, who said last night, 'I will never respect Bush if he is President no matter what'.
I never voted for Clinton, he was/is our President. I respect the Presidency and would never say that about whoever gets into the White House.
posted on November 15, 2000 09:16:59 PM new
When a man is assertive, he's a leader.
When a woman is assertive, she's a b*tch.
Florida has an elected Republican Governor and an elected Republican Secretary of State. Why do so many people think it would be impossible to have a Republican majority for a presidential candidate?
All the articles I have read said the recounts in the counties so far have been machine recounts. The only counties with hand counts are the ones requested by Gore's camp and include the 4 most Democratic. There have not been any hand counts anywhere else.
*********************
That's Flunky Gerbiltush to you!
posted on November 15, 2000 09:26:15 PM new
I'm really getting tired of all the B.S. Gore learned well from Clinton. Confuse the public with half truths, make deals he has no power to or idea on how to implement. My God, every time he gets in front of the camera it looks as if he's got a corncob stuck where the sun don't shine. This whole mess isn't entirely his fault. The people who didn't bother to read is the problem. Confusion is a cop out! On the other hand, maybe this is a sign that this country needs more than 2 legitimate political parties to choose from. Thats all I gotta say about that!
posted on November 15, 2000 09:26:36 PM new
KRS -
Perfect post - thank you - I didn't have time to post that but it is all true and quite the conflict of interest - but it is Jeb and the boys - and eyebrow lady - so who cares - amazing to what we have come to in this country.
The cartoon was also politically appropriate and perfect in addition to hysterically funny - wish I was as talented to come up with those!!!
Bush says no meeting - good PR guy behind him - HELLOOOO - who looks like he is uncooperative now - and we want him in the hot seat having to get along with all - I don't think so!! Plus - what the ...happened to his face - does he not have a make-up person - that huge band-aid is ridiculous - his daughters could have covered it for him. Sympathy play or once again showing ignorance... and the show goes on.....
But really - this will be in the history books - how embarassing for all of us - this debacle. Including, but not limited to, the candidate that keeps appearing on the ballots MONICA MOOREHEAD - is that ironic or what!!
[ edited by heyleigh on Nov 15, 2000 08:56 PM ]