posted on November 19, 2000 10:18:55 AM
WASHINGTON POST, 11/19/00..."In Broward County, pregnant chads dominated the debate. On Friday, Circuit Judge John A. Miller deferred a ruling on Democrats' request to count the indented ballots as votes, but sent a strong message to the canvassing board by saying he would intervene if the panel did not abide by state law and employ less restrictive criteria. The board has been counting only votes where two corners of the chad are detached. But today, the board's chairman,County Judge Robert W. Lee, said the panel would continue to use its two-corner standard, indicating it would implement a different appraisal system if ordered by Miller or the state Supreme Court. As a result, more than 1,000 votes have been separated for possible review later. "In all [likelihood], the majority will go to Al Gore," Lee said. Leonard Samuels, a lawyer for the Democrats, said that, "I am in there losing my mind. There are ballots in there where voters clearly intended to vote for Gore . . . and it is so obvious they would be Gore votes under the Texas standard that would count pregnant chads.""
posted on November 19, 2000 11:11:45 AM
The hand counting in Palm Beach and Broward counties "is not only fundamentally flawed, it is becoming completely untrustworthy," said Montana Gov. Marc Racicot, speaking for Republican campaign.
He said ballots were being dropped, damaged, stuck together, abused and misplaced, and Democratic officials were changing and manipulating the rules of the count.
"We have elderly counters overworked and burned out," he said. "Counters are working from 7 a.m. to 10 p.m. each day, sometimes even later. Counters, many of whom are elderly, are exhausted. Some of them are angry, and clearly they are fatigued. The room is poorly lit."
Montana Governor Marc Racicot said the recount is "fundamentally flawed"
In one case, he said vote counters found Bush ballots stacked among a pile of Gore ballots and refused to remove them.In another case, chad was taped over a ballot that had been marked for Bush, he said.
Racicot said Bush ballots have been "found in the Gore pile to be counted as Gore votes."The Democratic observer later apologized to the Republican counterpart, telling him that the stack of ballots was different last night, and, in his own words, had been sabotaged.
"I think the American people, when they learn about some of these things, will ask, 'What in the name of God is going on here?'"
posted on November 19, 2000 11:15:31 AM
The pregnant chad question was, I thought, pretty interesting.
At first I thought that they shouldn't be counted, it seemed to be stretching things too much.
After learning a bit more, and thinking on it awhile, I changed my mind. I think dimpled or pregnant chad should be counted.
What changed my mind was a few things -
First off, there's no way an indentation could be made in the space unless the voter had applied pressure to it with the stylus. It's pretty incredible to think that any voter, having gone through the trouble of going out to vote, standing in the voting booth, would begin to press on a ballot, and press a bit more, a bit more, a bit more, and suddenly, in a flash, at just one moment shy of punching it through, would think - "Wait!! This guy that I travelled out here to vote for... I don't want to vote for him anymore! And, not only that, I don't want to vote for the other guy either."
Secondly, it's very possible that a voter would intend to make a complete punch and only succeed in making an indentation if the space in back of the card was obstructed, as it could be from paper that was dislodged from previous voters.
And that's what led me to change my mind on what should be recognized as an intent to cast a vote.
posted on November 19, 2000 11:22:26 AM
Well, no worries. Broward County has just changed the rules halfway through their counting. They'll be counting pregancies without penetration.
posted on November 19, 2000 11:24:04 AM
You really can't trust the rhetoric on either side. I personally found the "clear and compelling" (also repeated as "clear and convincing" evidence to be less than credible.
posted on November 19, 2000 11:28:46 AM
Shall we highlight the counterpoint as well, Shelly?
Chris Lehane, spokesman for
Democratic presidential nominee Al
Gore, said the Bush camp was injecting
"raw, crass, partisan politics" into the
situation.
"The Gore campaign wants the will of
the people to be reflected accurately and
completely, which will be guaranteed by a manual recount, while the Bush
campaign is trying to do everything possible to stop that from happening," said
Lehane.
posted on November 19, 2000 11:41:52 AM
The democrats are taking their hunger for victory to an all new level - from the Associated Press, November 18:
[i] Just when it seemed the discussion of chad could get no stranger a Republican observer is accusing a Democrat of eating some of the tiny pieces of ballot paper.
Jim Rowland, a Republican observing the Broward County recount, said about 10 chads were piled on a table after counters had finished a batch of ballots.
"The Democratic floor manager looked at the pile and asked 'What are these?"' Rowland said.
He said he told the coordinating observer that they were waiting to put the chad into an envelope, and then it happened.
"He licked his finger and put it in the pile. I said, 'Sir! No! Don't do that!' But he put it in his mouth and then he swept the rest up and put some in his pocket," Rowland said.
Rowland did not get the name of the Democratic observer and said he did not report the incident to the canvassing board. He said the observer told him, "Well,they're not the property of the Republican party."
State Rep. Debbie Wasserman Schultz denied any Democrats were chad-eaters and suggested Republicans are making up tales out of frustration. [/i]
posted on November 19, 2000 11:50:54 AM And then, of course, is the "full and accurate count of the votes of ALL the people." Unless you're in the military, serving your country overseas. Then you get no benefit of any doubt, apparently. Nope. Just toss those ballots.
posted on November 19, 2000 11:58:19 AM
Hey Jules!
In truth, there's no one out there for me right now. I sure hope there is in four years. I'm worried about the future of the right to choose...but also gun owners rights. So I went Libertarian, though Browne is basically the invisible man...LOL!
posted on November 19, 2000 12:29:50 PM
Nader is a good man, I'd say the only truly virtuous candidate in this past election. But he's a lousy politician and, I think, would make a terrible president.
If, as an American, my biggest problem was that the box of 64 crayolas that I buy routinely only had 63 crayons in it, I'd want Nader as my president. If my concerns were more complex and sometimes contradictory, I'd want someone else.
posted on November 19, 2000 01:21:55 PM
I think it is ESPECIALLY insulting to AMERICAN military personnel who use APO & FPO postal service (usps)to NOT have thier vote counted. I would be some steamed if I was serving my country and had my written, posted and received by my precinct ballot not counted.
Gore will only stop counting & discounting when he has counted enough votes for his selfish little ego. He is pathetic.
[ edited by dejavu on Nov 19, 2000 01:26 PM ]
posted on November 19, 2000 03:36:05 PM
Maybe this has been noted already, but does anybody else find interesting the fact that the population of which a significant percentage can't figure out how to vote for Gore is the same population from which these vote counters are coming - folks who are supposed to figure out the voter's intent?
posted on November 19, 2000 04:37:36 PM
Uh oh... you're not heading trying to turn a "too stupid to vote, too stupid to be allowed to vote" line towards "too stupid to vote, too stupid to be allowed to examine a vote" are you?
Perhaps each ballot examiner should be given one of those "literacy tests" that were so popular in the post Civil War South?
In light of:
"Since the state requires each county to send out advance instructions, one would think the ballots, themselves, are invalid if they do not correspond to the instructions given.Palm Beach County sent out instructions to all citizens to punch out the hole to the right of the candidate's when it sent out sample ballots to all citizens.Thus,its advance instructions were significantly different from the actual ballot,as reported in today's Sun-Sentinel. This incorrect instructions caused double votes and votes for Gore in Buchanan's box. A simple remedey may be obtained, a remedy that Florida judges have used in previous elections. The Palm Beach judge could instruct the county to statistically apportion those vots that are in question, based on the voting pattern of the votes that are not in question.
posted on November 19, 2000 07:26:08 PM
They don't have any choice but to lower the standards for determining a vote. As it is now Gore isn't getting the votes he needs. Unless they relax the standards on what qualifies as a voter's intentions another hand count will be required. Recounts will continue till Gore has won.
"A senior Gore aide speaking on condition of anonymity said the vice president will have a difficult time overtaking Bush unless Palm Beach eases its threshold for accepting ballots." (Associated Press)
I'm appalled at Bush's reluctance to concede, doesn't he realize how much he is costing tax payers?!!!
We want every voter's intention to be counted*
* not applicable in all counties, does not include overseas voters
posted on November 20, 2000 06:59:52 AM
ANS: Recount for the next four years and leave billy in place.
He at least knows how to dodge the bullit.
Veetnam, doobies, Loosewinksi.
He did disappoint me tho. He didn't have
Big mouth Linda's trip disappear, which is
well within the scope of his powers.
posted on November 20, 2000 10:20:56 AM
How come the "will of the people" only counts when you vote Democratic? The Dems had no trouble putting the pressure on Nader supporters coercing them to change their votes. What happened to their "will?"
***********************
That's Flunky Gerbiltush to you!
evidence to be less than credible.
And then, of course, is the "full and accurate count of the votes of ALL the people." Unless you're in the military, serving your country overseas. Then you get no benefit of any doubt, apparently. Nope. Just toss those ballots.