krs
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posted on December 4, 2000 11:24:15 AM new
New court disclosures have positioned the Seminole absentee ballot case as the biggest election fraud scandal since the 1998 ouster of Miami Mayor Xavier Saurez. It may not only win the election for Al Gore, but result in lasting political damage for George W. Bush, brother Jeb and the GOP.
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pareau
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posted on December 4, 2000 02:01:12 PM new
Yet another unaccredited, word-for-word appropriation from http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/3750/bush.htm, courtesy kypus rhetoricus sameoldcrapus.
Codswallop does not improve upon regurgitation, krs.
- Pareau
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toke
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posted on December 4, 2000 02:17:55 PM new
Yup... Better watch this one, because Gore just lost everything in the court of N. Sanders Sauls. The whole shebang.
Now, Gore has to hope they don't count the votes of 15,000 absentees, as well as the military votes. What reeking hypocrisy.
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networker67
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posted on December 4, 2000 02:37:48 PM new
toke - Actually Bush better hope they don't count the 15,000 absentee ballots in Florida. Typically Florida only has 2700 absentee ballots in any election. So if your 15,000 number is correct it marks an increase of almost 500%. So where did all the new ballots come from? I suspect they come from Jews living in Israel who are American citizens. That means the likelihood of their being Bush votes is greatly reduced.
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krs
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posted on December 4, 2000 02:42:30 PM new
http://www.gopbi.com/partners/pbpost/epaper/editions/sunday/opinion_2.html
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toke
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posted on December 4, 2000 03:09:08 PM new
networker67...
These are votes already counted. Actually, only about 5,000 are in question due to Republican Party workers adding missing voter registration numbers to absentee ballot applications...not ballots. These numbers were missing due to a computer glitch... No fault or mistake of the voter. So, if the judge rules these votes should not be counted, they'll probably have to throw out all 15,000 absentee ballots from Seminole County...because they won't be able to segregate those 5,000 votes. They're also trying this tactic in Marin County.
Ironic from the folks who brought you "every vote must be counted," huh?
I don't have the patience or requisite talent to seek out links, so if anyone can find a non-partisan version of the story, I'd appreciate it.
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HartCottageQuilts
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posted on December 4, 2000 03:23:36 PM new
Jeez, kenny, can't you find any other sources?
I used to think you were at least marginally creative. I must revise my opinion.
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krs
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posted on December 4, 2000 03:42:24 PM new
Do you have any other personal, off topic, and insulting posts that you'd care to add? Please vent directly.
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HartCottageQuilts
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posted on December 4, 2000 04:27:07 PM new
I thought I'd try to speak your language, kenny.
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krs
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posted on December 4, 2000 04:54:51 PM new
Good luck to you. LOL!
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HartCottageQuilts
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posted on December 4, 2000 07:36:52 PM new
You are indeed the expert at "personal, off topic, and insulting posts", kenny. But nice of you to take time off from plaigiarizing to reply.
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stusi
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posted on December 4, 2000 07:41:43 PM new
stop picking on my friend kenny!
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HartCottageQuilts
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posted on December 4, 2000 08:08:32 PM new
He's a big boy. He tells us so - all the time.
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joice
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posted on December 4, 2000 08:18:58 PM new
Hello Everyone,
Please remember the part in the CG's about addressing the subject and not the poster.
Joice
Moderator.
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uaru
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posted on December 4, 2000 08:23:48 PM new
Now, Gore has to hope they don't count the votes of 15,000 absentees
NPR had a news story on the Seminole county lawsuit, they put it in the 'dream on' catagory. Remember the only thing in dispute is the application for the absentee ballot, not the absentee ballots itself. For the court to reverse an election over a printing error would indeed be the greatest Christmas present Gore could receive. Unfortunately for Gore I think the Grinch is the only one visiting Gore this Christmas.
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krs
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posted on December 4, 2000 08:28:41 PM new
Yet the Bush team spent so much effort trying to have the black female democratic judge removed from the case.
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herself
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posted on December 4, 2000 08:33:51 PM new
Sheesh...
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DoctorBeetle
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posted on December 5, 2000 12:30:39 PM new
Legal precedence already established by the Forida Supreme Court during a review of a similar case in 1996 shows that the remedy sought by the Gore partisans is extremely unlikely to be granted. The 1996 case dealt with Volusia County (just north of Seminole County) ballots that were remarked by election workers so that the machine could read the ballots. While the Florida Supreme Court spanked the Supervisor of Elections in Volusia County they did not throw out the ballots. Read the story in today's Orlando Sentinel.
Dr. Beetle
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njrazd
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posted on December 5, 2000 01:19:49 PM new
Another article from the Orlando Sentinal about the man who filed the Seminole County lawsuit. Naaaah...Gore had nothing to do with it.
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/automagic/news/2000-12-03/ASECjacobs03120300.html
*********************
That's Flunky Gerbiltush to you!
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uaru
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posted on December 5, 2000 01:36:08 PM new
Interesting article Dr. Beetle. I couldn't help but notice that when Judge Clark held a hearing today it wasn't covered on CNN. C-SPAN showed the proceedings, but CNN passed on the 'tempest in a tea cup'.
It seems that Jacobs is heavily invested in the Gore campaign, that's serious money by my terms. Jacobs disclosed that he donated $50,000 to the Gore effort, hit up other potential donors for contributions and spent another $50,000 of his own money on a 30-second radio ad...(from njrazd's link)
Gore's last hope in my mind is the Florida supreme court overturning Judge Sauls decision. Since the Florida supreme court has had their hand slapped recently I'd suspect that Sauls would have to be way, way out of line before they overruled him.
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krs
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posted on December 5, 2000 01:43:55 PM new
I don't think any superior court will take a chance in Florida right now and so the Seminole case is likely to be dismissed.
The facts, as reported, are interesting, particularly those which describe the disparate decisions by this Gourd person:
http://www.campaignwatch.org/update.htm
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networker67
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posted on December 5, 2000 02:31:33 PM new
Well the Seminole County case won't be summarily dismissed from the looks of things as those motions are being presented right now. It appears that the Bush Legal Team is having a Devil of A Time convincing the Judge she has no Jurisidiction and what really eggs me is how they have o three occasions referred to the recently vacated Judgement from the Florida Supreme Court.
And they seem to have fallen in love with Judge Sauls statement of no evidence of impropriety by the Canvassing Boards. But as the Judge in this case has pointed out none of the allegations of that case were made for Judge Sauls to rule on.
I loved the inablity of the Bush Team to answer the question what would be your position if the signature was missing. And I haven't the foggiest how they handle things in Florida. But here in Illinois, we have voter registration cards with all of our voter information. And what I question is the ability of a Political party to obtain your voter number. And although they have been given this information still manage to place the wrong numbers on the wrong forms. Because all of this would have been by a database and merge print onto the State Form. So we have to question if the numbers match the voters. Making it possible for either party to actually complete absentee ballots with forged signatures. Since the ability of fraud exists, I can see why the Judge is hesitating to dismiss the case.
I hope to see the arguments and whether the Judge can afford a remedy since it is obvious that the error or ommission has clearly shifted the outcome of the election. This case is far more fascinating than the case I watch all weekend in Judge Sauls court room.
I am really loving the Bush lawyer who seems to have developed an allergy that didn't exist this weekend when addressing this Judge. Strange how Gore didn't join this case because of the conflict with his desire to see all votes counted. But this case might actually restore his popular vote lead. Seeing that if the Judge grants the remedy sought by the petition filers. Bush looses 1932 votes and Gore loses 64 votes.
Funny how it might come down to a Republican Party ploy to preserve absentee ballots that causes them to loose the election. The mere thought of that is funny in itself.
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DoctorBeetle
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posted on December 5, 2000 04:41:17 PM new
Voter registration information, at least in Seminole County, Florida, is in the public domain. Every voter's name, address, and voter ID number can be had by anyone with the requisite interest.
Earlier stories in the Orlando Sentinel (anyone that is interested can search their archives) stated that the incorrect voter ID numbers on the absentee ballot request forms were screwed up by the republican party's printer. The ballot requests in question were part of a mass mailing by the republican's to encourage voting. A similar campaign was conducted by the democratic party. The democrat's printer did not screw up the mail merge. Maybe the republican printer was really a closet democrat? When the republican party official filled in the correct ID numbers it was done from a database owned by the republican party.
The Supervisor of Elections verifies the ID number versus the other supplied information (name, address, signature) before mailing the absentee ballot. I would say that the opportunity for fraud was equally available to both parties.
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networker67
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posted on December 5, 2000 05:00:06 PM new
Dr. Beatle - I agree but changing numbers after the ballots had been returned is where the question arises. Because the voter themselves had the opportunity to verify his/her own voter number. So I think the case has its merits. But on the same what is the remedy for an error done by a third party. if the third party was the election commissioner or canvassing board. I would say it has no bearing. But the third party is the political party of the voter.
What gurrantee do we have that those ballots actually went to the voter. Since with the exception of the signature the whole form was filled out by the politcal party. That interesting point was brought out by the Plaintiffs in this action in rebuttal to the motions to dismiss.
I still find it scary fate of chance that all of these problems arise in the State of the Brother of one of the candidates. And it is hard to beleive that all of these problems exist in one state. And that it took a close presidential election to bring this forward.
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IMLDS2
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posted on December 5, 2000 08:37:45 PM new
Networker,
I've thought all along this was a DEMOCRATIC set up/ploy to get rid of BOTH Bushes political futures with one stroke of the brush.
Or to make sure brother Jeb doesn't get a position...seems like John Kennedy appointed his brother Attorney General...hmm...
This was planned by the democrats...kinda like the ace up the sleeve trick.
Carole
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DoctorBeetle
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posted on December 6, 2000 08:40:37 AM new
Networker67
I am a resident of Seminole County and I voted by absentee ballot. If the elections office hadn’t told me what my voter ID was (after I furnished a photo ID) I would have never known. The ID number is not derived from any source that I could identify and without an actual voter card (beats me where mine is) or information from the election officials most people wouldn’t have a clue. So it is unlikely that many voters would find it easy to verify their ID number. After all, 4700 absentee ballot requests were returned with the incorrect preprinted numbers.
A third party did indeed enter voter ID numbers. They were preprinted on many forms correctly and the forms sent by the Democratic Party also had preprinted voter ID numbers. So in both cases, requests with correct ID numbers and requests with misprinted ID numbers, the information was effectively entered by a third party, a political party. The only valid concern in this case (IMO) is the location in which the numbers were entered and the time at which they were entered. They were entered in the Supervisor of Elections office (not that big of a deal) and were entered after being disqualified (a valid issue) by the SOE.
You ask: “ What guarantee do we have that those ballots actually went to the voter?” The answer is none. A better question is what is the likelihood that fraud occurred? The Supervisor of Elections validates the information on the ballot request. They check the voter address, social security number, voter ID number, etc. against the database of registered voters. Any discrepancy in that information should prevent an absentee ballot from being mailed to the prospective voter.
Since the ballots would be sent to the address of record filed when the voter registered anyone attempting fraud would have to intercept those ballots from the voters mailbox. The other alternative would be to have done wholesale false registrations. This would require a unique photo ID for each registration and a unique address for each registration. Overall I would opine that this is an extremely labor intensive method of stealing votes (it is far easier to divine intent from dimples).
You further state: “I still find it scary fate of chance that all of these problems arise in the State of the Brother of one of the candidates. And it is hard to believe that all of these problems exist in one state. And that it took a close presidential election to bring this forward.” I have no problem believing that “all of these problems” exist in one state. If any fairly populous state (New York, Illinois, California, etc.) were to have their ballot processes subjected to the scrutiny occurring in Florida I think you would see an equivalent amount of error, misjudgment, etc.
That it took a close presidential election to bring it forward would be requisite. Would Harry Jacobs (the Seminole County plaintiff) have considered this a problem justifying a lawsuit if he didn’t think it would swing the election to his candidate? Would complaints about butterfly ballots have generated more than a mention in the back pages of the local newspapers if the election hadn’t been close? In all probability there have been problems of equal magnitude in other states that did not have a close vote. The fact that the vote wasn’t close in those states is the reason we haven’t seen them publicized. There have been allegations of problems in New Mexico and Oregon (states with very close votes) but since they can’t swing the election the press doesn’t view them as being as news worthy as the least little pimple on the butt of a Florida voter.
Dr. Beetle
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krs
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posted on December 6, 2000 09:11:15 AM new
Well, that's exactly the point. It is a close election, and it does hinge on the Florida vote in every aspect. If this were the case in California, for example, and the election result rode on a few vote difference here, there would be as active an inquiry.
However, I do not believe that in California there would be such a concerted and cooperative effort to actually hide the true result.
aside:
As to the repetitive recount of the events in Northern Illinois in 1960 by fans of the republican party, it should be remembered that Kennedy won the election with 303 electoral votes. Since Illinois at the time had only 27 electoral votes, the Illinois results would not have affected the outcome no matter which way the state ultimately went.
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fountainhouse
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posted on December 6, 2000 09:27:24 AM new
And let's not forget to mention, krs, that Nixon wasn't being altogether altruistic when he conceded.
Had he pursued the alleged irregularities in Democratic counties, many historians believe the shenanigans of his own party in other parts of the state would have come to light.
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DoctorBeetle
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posted on December 6, 2000 09:45:22 AM new
I have no problem with the enquiry. It is evident that better procedures are required and some clarification of what is allowable would certainly be of benefit.
I do have a problem with the remedy requested in the lawsuit. To throw out 15,000 babies with the bathwater is extreme. I can't see how disqualifying votes in any way remedies this situation.
Dr. Beetle
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mark090
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posted on December 6, 2000 09:45:39 AM new
From what I understand, is not only did workers(Republican party workers by the way) illegally enter the Voter numbers on the applications, but it was only on registered Republican application. The registered Democrat's application was left in the trash...
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