posted on December 11, 2000 03:49:21 PM
What do YOU people think?
[b]MOTHER WHO BREASTFEEDS BOY, 6, FACES CUSTODY FIGHT
In an exceptional case, Illinois child protection authorities have taken a 6-year-old boy from the custody of a Champaign mother because she was still breastfeeding him, allegedly against his wishes.
In the view of the mother fighting for the return of her only child, the battle pits American norms about parenting against her right to raise her son as she sees fit--a style that includes allowing the boy to choose when he quits nursing.
To state child welfare officials, the case is about abuse.
Authorities at the Department of Children and Family Services took the boy from the 32-year-old woman's home after a baby-sitter called an abuse hot line and the child subsequently told investigators that he no longer wanted to breastfeed, they said. The mother says she told investigators her son never indicated he didn't want to nurse and that she would continue to breastfeed as long as her son wished.
The agency has determined that the child's living situation constitutes sexual molestation and risk of harm.
The mother says the misguided case is based on society's narrow ideas about what constitutes good parenting.
Though she wants her son back, the mother also refuses to compromise her methods.
"They took my son because I'm not following the DCFS cookbook on raising a kid," she says. "It's so outrageous, they need to admit they made a mistake and drop it."[/b]
posted on December 11, 2000 04:04:53 PM
Is breast-feeding abnormal at 6, I feel, yes. Where is the line between abnormal and abuse? really tough. If it is against child's wish, then yes, abuse it is.
Sounds like mother has a serious separation problem. May have been abandoned by husband?
Whether abuse or not, she might need help.
On the same line, how about mothers who let their children, even infants, become obese because they "just cannot deny babies their food"....Saw a program, with 8 month-old 70 POUNDS baby, 1.5 yr-old at 100 pounds...
Is it abuse? My opinion is yes.
******************** Gosh Shosh!
posted on December 11, 2000 04:36:17 PM
Subjecting us to the sick image conjured by the title of this thread is abusive, if you ask me. Then to read that the child is being forced against his will ... disgusting.
What is it about today? First the "Venomous Snake" thread, now this.
posted on December 11, 2000 04:48:02 PM
I think the kid is WAY too old for breastfeeding.
plus he was not interested, so that place the mother in the wrong.
the mother needs help ... big time
posted on December 11, 2000 04:58:26 PMSounds like mother has a serious separation problem. May have been abandoned by husband?
If being abandoned by your husband causes you to breastfeed your child to age 6, I suggest the "separation problems" started a tad before the marriage.
I also wonder at this woman's ability to tolerate nursing a child with a full set of TEETH.
posted on December 11, 2000 05:00:55 PM
UpInTheHills- I agree with you 100%!
I breastfed my son for 19 months. The ex-inlaws thought that was abusive.
The thought of the government telling us how long we can breastfeed our children turns my stomach. Besides, I see lots of 6 year olds sucking on bottles (usually filled with Dr Pepper or Coke!). Nobody in society even raises an eyebrow to that.
posted on December 11, 2000 05:25:10 PM
Hmmm. Tough one. Of course, I do have an opinion (and that opinion is that the mom is more than a little strange) but at the same time, it's important to me to let parents parent as they see fit as long as it's not abusive. Whether this is actually abusive is a harder call. It's certainly inappropriate in my view, and probably to most childrearing experts, but I don't like the idea of children being taken away because their parents behave "inappropriately" ---to me, there's too much potential for witchhunting there. (Are families that believe in non-sexual nudism as a healthy practice inappropriate? should their children be taken away? How about families in which a parent spanks? Should that child be taken away? I think other factors need to be looked at in these cases....as well as the breasfeeding case).
I also wonder if there isn't some of the queasiness about breastfeeding that still exists in the US involved in this. Would he have been taken away from the mom if he was still being given a bottle at age 6? Something tells me he wouldn't have been. Yet because there's a breast involved, we need to get him out of there. That in itself seems slightly weird to me...
posted on December 11, 2000 05:43:03 PM
I agree that there is still a queasiness in our society about beastfeeding.
I remember well the dirty looks I got when I tried to nurse my son in public. Fortunatly, my mother had prepared me for the downcast eye of society. Once, a waiter asked me if I would please do "THAT" (he spit the words at me!) in the restroom. I was being very discreet and was completly covered with a blanket. I asked him if he eats his dinner on the bathroom floor. No answer. I then informed him that my baby wouldn't either.
Fact is, breasts are still thought to be sexual objects in our society. Sorry, but I didn't get pregnant just so I could display my wonderful, milk-swollen boobs in public for your boyfriend to gawk at! Too many people are still, sadly, uncomfortable with people letting their babies have access to these "tools of seduction."
I realize that 6 years old is out of the norm. To those I ask, when should we cut it off? A month, 6 months, year...? Who's to say?
Connie
P.S. Will my post be deleated cause I said "boobs"?
[ edited by ConnieM on Dec 11, 2000 05:43 PM ]
posted on December 11, 2000 06:03:21 PM
FrannyS I heard about this.
I believe people have very different ideas about things. In some countries this is normal, but not here.
I do think we have far too many social workers out there butting into peoples lives, where there still are kids that are really being abused etc.
Is this abuse? I couldn't answer that. At 6 years old, well.. the kid is going to remember this, and I am no pychologist, but who knows what, IF ANY, damage it *could* cause later? Or none....
I remember my dr bout had a fit when I said I didn't want to breast feed, so I gave in, and breast fed 2 kids. First one I did it for 6 months, the second about the same, and yeah, sometimes, I had to force them to... in the long run, I feel the dr was right, it was better for them, they were seldom sick as babies etc. And I didn't have to go heat a bottle at 2 am either
posted on December 11, 2000 06:18:47 PM
I believe that Viva, of Warhol's Factory fame, nursed her daughter past the age of four. I think she's grown up to be actress Gaby Hoffmann ("Sleepless in Seattle," "Field of Dreams". I guess we can scrutinize her work for excessive oral overtones.
Several months ago, I watched a family eating brunch in a NYC restaurant. Woman, man, and an articulate boy of about four, who at one point crawled up on the woman's lap, dove for her breast, and suckled. It was all as discreet as such a thing could be (no expanses of skin, no flashes of nipple), but I have to admit that it was disconcerting, given the kid's seemingly mature sensibilities and rapport with the adults. Perverse? Didn't seem so. Odd, but bad? I couldn't say. Of course, it was clear that the child was initiating the action, wanted to suckle, and seemed to derive comfort from the few minutes he spent doing it. A mother forcing her breast on a child who's cutting permanent teeth, though, seems a very different matter.
posted on December 11, 2000 06:32:49 PM
Spazmodeus, the title of this thread is the same thing that blasted at me from the front of my local newspaper this morning. You didnt find it so offensive to stop you from coming inside, did it? Try putting on some blinders. The papers are FULL of headlines worse than this one.
The mother stated "as long as the child wants to breastfeed, then she will continue to do it", according to the paper. She said the child never told her he didnt want to do it anymore, but evidently the child told the sitter and the authorities he DID wish it to stop. The story went on with other "supposed" details of where the mother works (as if that matters), that the whole family "co-slept" together, etc. What I find disturbing is the fact that the child is 6. I, myself, find that excessive. But then again, I am not in her situation, nor know the full facts except what the paper wrote. And we all know about newspaper stories, dont we?
posted on December 11, 2000 06:40:10 PM
I think 6 years old is way over limit. A baby is a baby and breast milk is to nourish and protect it from illness. What would be the motive for a six year old?
Once in awhile it's not even best for the baby. My grandson had colic and screamed almost 24 hours a day. We found out he was allergic to his mothers milk. After he was off the breast for about a week he was like a different baby. Not that this really has anything to do with the subject, but just threw it in.
posted on December 11, 2000 06:45:20 PM
Separation in this case would be the inability to cut umbilical cord....not separating from husband...
UpInTheHills...Major OUCH!!!
It might be that city people are more uptight about this...I have seen documentaries, and I'm sure many have seen the same ones, of children from Tribes in the Amazone...They seem to be suckling to a late age while infant brother or sister is drinking from the other side. What is it that does offend?!...hmmmmm
I don't like to see it either; but could it be that society has become so sophisticated that we are taking the natural out of Nature?...
********************
Gosh Shosh!
posted on December 11, 2000 07:34:11 PM
Might be she hangs on to one thing that no other person or entity can offer. She holds on to the life flow she and only she can produce for her son.
Does she have other children or just this one?
Might be that her life is miserable and this was the only child she could produce and she is not willing to let him grow up and away from her.
Might be that she is one of those women who has an orgasm during breast feeding.
Might be that that she has mental problems of some kind and she heard long ago that mothers milk provides protection to the child, and has never been able to let it go.
Might be that the child could use a break from any one of these scenarios.
There has to be a reason this is going on and the reason in my opinion cannot possibly benefit the child.
Take the child away permanantly? I think not. I think some counseling is due here for Mother and Child.
Leave it to you to find a topic everyone can agree on. LOL
It sure seems old for a child of 6 to me but then what do I know except that breast feeding was not for me. Maybe it is more the bond between mother and child and she will sadly have to admit her baby is growing up and won't "need" her as much and a habit for the 6 yr old that gets his mothers complete attention? I don't know the answer.
I am wondering what led up to or why the child told the social worker. Surely not that the child walked into social services. I wonder about people that turn people in? Is it out of real concern for the childs safety? If so, then Wonderful but if it is a busy body then shame on them.
Bridghid,
I think you may be on to something. I don't find most breast feeding embarrassing because most of the women I have seen do it discreetly as you did. We did have a woman in our small church that had 4 or 5 children. Didn't make any difference to her that we were in church and she didn't bother with discreet. I must have been about 10 and found it very odd but then I had also never seen a baby breast fed.
I don't know if squeemish is the right word for me esp done as you suggested but breast feeding was not for me and I had to bite my tongue when my DIL had to do it for a little while because she was doing what needed to be done for the baby. I didn't want to share my feelings because she had not choice at the time and I did not want to place any silliness of mine on to her.
Six sounds really old but then it would for a bottle too.
This is not the topic but I was reading on a board one day and read where two women were discussing potty training.
Overheard, "My five year old, I think has got potty training almost down now and can you believe my 2 and 1/2 year old is already wanting to be potty trained?"
I was shocked! The 5 yr old "almost" had it down and the 2 1/2 yr old was wanting to start? I had no idea that people waited so long now. Yes, I read that they will let you know when they are ready but I swear I think it is the disposable diaper people suggesting this.
This may be the trend and may be better for the baby but I am not sure how?
edited: I apologize Franny for getting the name wrong.
Thank you Pareau.
[ edited by shar9 on Dec 11, 2000 08:01 PM ]
[ edited by shar9 on Dec 11, 2000 08:03 PM ]
posted on December 11, 2000 07:49:33 PM
Before I give my opinion, let me state that I am 100% pro-breastfeeding and that I nursed two children, each for over a year, and highly recommend it.
Here is what I learned: by the time each child was about one year old, they became less interested in nursing. By 14 months they were done. I realize each child may be different, but my experience was similar to my grandmother, who nursed 7 children, all for about one year.
I never withheld nursing, nor did I "force" them to nurse. I simply let nature take it's course. And really, by 14 months, neither child nursed. They preferred to sit at the table with others and drink from a cup like everyone else. My kids NEVER had a bottle, nor any cow's milk, while nursing. They started drinking water and juice from a sippy cup at about 8 or 10 months, and eating solid food at that time, also.
Very easy transition from nursing as they already ate and drank and didn't need to ween from a bottle.
Now, some children like to nurse for comfort. My children got plenty of contact and affection from me so when they needed comforting, they were satisfied with hugs and physical contact without the need for the breast.
I have found that a lot of women who nurse well beyond 2 years do it for their own personal reasons, not for the baby. Nutritionally and developmentally the child does not "need" nursing beyond 2 years. However, some women become attached to the idea of nursing and don't want to let it go. Or, they have ulterior motives for wanting to continue.
My sister-in-law nurses a baby and a 5 year old together anywhere and everywhere she pleases. I personally think she gets a kick out of shocking and offending people as it is not a pretty sight and she makes NO attempt to be discreet. She also does not want to go back to work and she tells my brother that she can't reurn to work because "she's nursing." She is definitely a case where her reasons for nursing an older child are questionable.
Another thought I have from observation is that nursing is an easy substitute for dealing appropriately with a child. Instead of distracting, amusing, or soothing a child, I see many women instantly lift up the shirt at the first sign of tiredness, crankiness, or crying in a child. Other forms of comfort should be tried first. Again, I'm talking about a child, not a baby.
So my experience makes me feel that nursing a 6 year old is more an indication of a dysfunctional mother than anything else.
posted on December 11, 2000 08:06:44 PM
The little boy confided in the baby-sitter hoping that maybe she could help him as he didn't want to breast feed.
It's a hard call to turn someone in to the authorities. Sometimes it's done when it shouldn't be, but there are cases where it should have been done and wasn't.
The little boy must have had strong feelings about it to tell someone. We tell our kids to talk to a person they trust if something like that is disturbing them, and that's what he did.
posted on December 11, 2000 08:09:21 PM
I imagine that maybe the kids in school were giving him a hard time? I mean, the child is 6. Isnt that 1st or 2nd grade?
Its ok Shar9. I get names confused too.
[ edited by FrannyS on Dec 11, 2000 08:10 PM ]
posted on December 11, 2000 08:35:08 PM
Breast feeding to age 6 is not historically abnormal. Women also used breast feeding as a form of birth control- albeit not a very good one - and so nursing to age 6 was a way to exercise spacing of children.
Odder still is how we in the West have allowed or caused the female breasts to become sexual objects, as in this case of "sexual" molestation.
I can remember 35 years ago women nursing on public buses, on their front porch, and anywhere they wished, and this was in a large metropolitian area. I never heard it suggested that this was in any way a sexual situation.
Human breast milk is better than formula and cow's milk, I guess it's because we have made breasts sexual objects that nursing a 6 year old is a sexual situation.
posted on December 11, 2000 09:02:57 PM
"If it is against child's wish, then yes, abuse it is."
I hope DCFS does not feel this way. I have a very good friend that works there and, IMHO, they have far too much power. Do you know they are not regulated by anyone? It is their subjective opinion that decides if children should be removed. Calls to DCFS can and most often are anonymous. Have a problem with a neighbor or family member? Many adult disputes end up in false complaints.
According to our friend they visit the home as soon as possible after a call, get the parents at work to come home immediately if necessary. They go to the home, take the children out to speak to by themselves, open refridgerators etc. They will then decide what they think - very subjective. Of course, we feel she has normal common sense but she has told us stories of other workers that have taken children for things you would not believe.
Back to this case -
I personally believe 6 yrs is too old. However, the mother forced a 6 yr old to breastfeed - unless she starved him and this was his only nourishment - I find that hard to believe. No one has stated he was malnourished.
Too much of the story is missing - would like to hear more. Was that the sole reason the child was removed? Is the other parent around? What does the teacher at school say? Is this a cultural issue where it is common place in hers?
posted on December 11, 2000 09:15:59 PM
Hate to think of the kind of fixation the "adult" will develop. Would hate to be his wife...
******************** Gosh Shosh!
In the LOCAL section. To read that particular story (I didnt post it all), you will have to register. Its free.
[ edited by FrannyS on Dec 11, 2000 09:18 PM ]
posted on December 11, 2000 09:44:07 PM
Well I must say when I opened the FEDEX that contained my Sunday paper this morning. I was a little shocked at first but must admit it made for more interesting reading than the Supreme Court speculation.
In Illinois 6 is normal age for a 1st Grader. So if the youngster wants to nurse as according to his mother. I will assume she shows up each day at lunch time to feed him at school. Being a man I guess it is hard to have an opinion on this. I can agree that viewing breasts as sex objects doesn't help either. Notice how the child protection worker called it sexual molestation.
Now I notice the mother's statement was as long as she chooses. That bothers me because she thinks it is her choice. I think a six year old with a mouth full of choppers probably wants Big Macs from The Golden Arches, not Big Mams from inside the blouse.
posted on December 11, 2000 10:05:17 PM
"Some people are upset, if not shocked, to learn that children can nurse for so long. Curiously, these same people are hardly surprised to see kindergartners sucking their thumbs or fingers. The truth is that the need to suck, like many other dependency needs, does not disappear overnight, and often lasts longer than we as a society are willing to accept. Indeed, the average age of weaning around the world is 4.2 years."
Ester Davidowitz, "The Breastfeeding Taboo," Redbook (July 1992): 114
Isn't it possible that the boy's babysitter thought it was weird, and got the boy to answer the way she thought he should answer? It's next to impossible to get kids taken away from truly abusive parents, but a mother who is breastfeeding is no problem. IF the average age worldwide for weaning is 4.2 years, doesn't that mean that some people aren't weaning until age 8? If giving a child cow's milk is against his wishes, do we remove the child from a mother who makes him drink his milk? What is the difference? That child does not see nursing as a sexual act, YOU* do. Nursing does not stop being beneficial after 6 months or 1 year...the milk changes to help keep the child healthier and acts as a soothing tool. Just because you wouldn't do it doesn't make it wrong. But the government deciding WHEN a mom should wean her child IS wrong. I think CPS should stay out of my bra...it's not their place.
*"you" meaning those who are offended by this.
My son is 4 months old, and he will nurse as long as he likes. The benefit far outweighs other people being embarrased to see it.
posted on December 11, 2000 10:41:08 PM
Excellent post, trinchgirl! Ester Davidowitz is a long time friend of my Mom's!
Nursing has other benifits other than simple nutrition. It is a source of comfort to the child. So the older child is usually nursing to feel secure or to unstress. Other children use other methods. Just like adults do. The kids I worry about, are the ones who have no way of feeling secure.
I think La Leche League will get involved in this, which will be a very good thing. For those of you who don't know them, they are an organization of mothers (and fathers!) who help to educate new mothers, and the public in general, about the benefits of breastfeeding. They are international, with some of the biggest names of pediatricians and other medical specialists on their boards. They were started by 8 women in Chicago in the early 60's, who found themselves with no support system for their choice on nursing. They have grown to be a very well respected organization, who is mainly resposible for the changing viewpoints on nusing, in our society. (I've met all 8 of the founding mothers. Truely the neatest women you could want to meet!) They are the only ones that I can think of who could be involved as a third party, and really decide how to handle this, if indeed it does need handling at all. I'm kinda shocked that DCFS or the courts have not asked them to be involved yet...
. I guess we can scrutinize her work for excessive oral overtones.
