posted on December 11, 2000 04:54:11 PM
...and are interested, as I am, in the Florida and US Constitutional issues that are raised by the Florida Legislature's scheduled vote, you might want to turn on C-Span to hear testimony to the Committees. We seem to have got past the weeping citizens and are on to the Harvard and Yale constitutional scholars, and it's fascinating. I'd originally supported the idea of a Legislature move, but after hearing the potential Congressional issues a possible double slate of FL electors would raise, I'm hoping they'll hold off. The idea of Senate President Al Gore acting as Jefferson did, opening the electors' ballots and unilaterally deciding which slate of FL electors to disqualify - the scenario presented by one Yale prof - makes the bizarre quality of the rest of this election pale in comparison. I must admit it would be interesting, however
posted on December 11, 2000 05:49:11 PM
Yes I thought the same thing. That would be much more interesting to see Gore elect himself. Seems the public was never this interested before in the end process of the electorates, so I wonder if they will have cameras in there, oh they better
But in the end result, IMO, if it goes with two slates of electors from FL, I believe that there will be a couple three or so Democratics vote against Gore.
C-Span? Damn, the only channel the others that live in this house think we have is CNN. Ugh
posted on December 11, 2000 06:44:57 PM
nearthesea - Guess what 22 of the 25 Florida democrat electors could vote against Gore and it doesn't matter all he needs is three more electoral votes to have 270. If 22 vote Bush and 3 vote Gore. Gore wins 270 to 268 in the college. If a whole Republican Slate goes up and just three decide to vote Gore. Gore wins in the college.
Bush has to get 24 of the 25 votes to win the college. All Gore has to do is pull three of the 25 to win. To further this lets say hypothetically that three Tennessee electors where to switch at the college and vote Gore. He would win over Bush.
So if two slates go up. He could choose to accept 13 Republicans and 12 Democrats he would win because he only needs three. And he would have provided the fairest remedy to two slates. Which is why I say just deny Florida's electors period and the college for 2000 is 513. With a majority being 257, you are a Bush supporter and this clearly hurts your candidate. Deny Florida and reduce every other member except those with the minimum amount by one and the college is 471 for 2000 with 236 forming a majority. I haven't looked at the current totals to see who that benefits.
But the eight States with the minimum (which is 3) are AK, DE, DC, MT, ND, SD, VT, WY.
Florida Republicans want to act like States haven't been denied admission to the college. Or there hasn't been altering to the College in the past. In 1868 and 1872 the college was reduced by 23 and 17 respectively. In 1876 we had four States Florida being one of them send up two slates of electors. In that election as in this one, Florida managed to certify a Republican by throwing out Democratic Votes. Just like in 1876 the Senate is at this point in time Democratic since Gore casts the tying vote. And the House was Republican.
Guess what they did, they took Five Senators, Five Representatives, and Four Supreme court Justices with the court able to choose the fifth justice to serve on a Special Commission. They voted right along party lines 8 to 7. However one of the judges actually favored the other guy but was pressured to vote with the party. Now you see why Bush went to court. None of the other remedies afford him sure victory.
Because a split slate doesn't have to be accepted by the joint congressional session. Since the senate is split so Gore casts the deciding vote. It is considered Democrat and the House is Considered Republican on which slate to accept. Guess what still no agreement on which slate to accept. Democracy dictates accept 1/2 of each slate and give the odd one to the party of the States Govenor. But that doesn't help Bush. So what will hapen is anyone's guess and I suspect that the Florida Supreme Court isn't through with this yet.
posted on December 12, 2000 07:27:15 AM
Yale profs are rarely grounded in reality
I agree that the CSpan coverage is much better than other media's presentation, but please remember that it too is politically twisted in more subtle ways. I'm sure HCQ is aware of this but wanted to make the point for others who may not be.
________
I never had one, and I didn't want one, and I don't, so now I do...
posted on December 12, 2000 08:44:39 AM
Ok to get straight thru all this straight forward, if that is possible har
Whether or not what your feelings are on Harris, was or was not, Gov. Bush CERTIFIED, on Nov. whatever the exact date was.
(re: IMO I think Harris did nothing wrong, she went exactly by what the FL SC told her to do)
The FL Supreme Court DID extend the date, Harris took that date and gave the tally, they all signed, and are not those votes certified and in the archives, so basically Bush DID win? (I am talking, regardless of what is going on in any other courts down there)
Yes I know the Fl legistlature are right now in special session over this. What happened to that certification on that extension the FL Supreme Court gave?
posted on December 12, 2000 08:58:53 AMNeartheSea Yes, Bush was certified, but the election is now being contested. The certification may not stand. The Contest Phase of FL election law statute doesn't begin until certification has taken place.
The contest phase is specifically a judicial (court) review -- and that's what the current U.S. Supreme Court case is all about.
As for the FL Legislature's current special session, wellllllll they are SAYING that they're doing that to "protect" ALL of FLorida's voters' votes. The truth is they're doing it to protect Bush's win, or try to. There's considerably discussion about whether their actions (if successful) would be legal, so here's yet something else that will no doubt get litigated.
posted on December 12, 2000 12:56:51 PMThe truth is they're doing it to protect Bush's win, or try to.
Glad to see somebody has a corner on the "truth", clevergirl, and can see into our legislators' hearts, as it were. Hey, why not provide a lie-detector service for people who suspected their spouses of cheating? Easier than ebay for sure.
The fact of the matter is that there's considerable debate about what would happen if the contest (by recount or purely in litigation) were still in process at the time the electors vote. Could a member of the House properly challenge the validity of the slate of electors certified by Harris? If so, could Florida's electors be disqualified, providing Florida's voters NO voice in the Electoral College (and effectivey providing a shoo-in for Gore, if it were decided that less than 270 electoral votes would gain the Presidency)? Does the FL Legislature's certifying the same slate of electors provide any insurance from such challenge and disqualification? Would such legislative certification have any effect if it occured after the safe harbor date (11/12)? Is there more risk of Floridians losing any voice whatsoever in the Electoral College if the present slate is certified and litigation/challenge is ongoing, when the House is predominantly Republican; or if the challenge results in a recount and ANOTHER slate of electors (these Democratic) is certified (by e.g. the FL Attorney General) - resulting in TWO different slates of FL electors, requiring the Senate President (Mr. Gore) to determine which is the legitimate slate?
It's really not quite as simple as you - and the dreadful Minority Leader of the FL Legislature, who somehow has brought political bathos to a new low - would like to think.
posted on December 12, 2000 01:37:25 PM
Edited to remove a double post...I think I'll blame it on one or the other political parties.
[ edited by Shadowcat on Dec 12, 2000 01:39 PM ]
posted on December 12, 2000 07:12:23 PM
Shadowcat - It does work both ways. However Bush is weak in three States with the electors. Which is why some Dems want to hold back on conceding and go after the electors. At this point I just hope the Supreme Court does the Right Thing as opposed to the Politcal Thing. However this is America and the political thing is always what seems to be done. Which is why I don't give alliegence to a political party.
Seems the court ruled to toss the Florida Ruling. They voted 5-4, same as to stay the recounts. Some of the Supreme Ruling appears to support the ambiguty of current Florida Law. Which really gets me because I don't understand how you say recounts aren't fair because a fair standard doesn't exist under the law. Seems to me with the case returning to the Florida Supreme Court, the best remedy for them is to determine the current law Unconstitutional thus reverting to the law before 1999. And then let the election be decided.
Now we are back to Florida and an ambiguous law, which is obvious was written to provide this window of confusion.
