You gotta know that SOMEHOW the Repuklicans are gonna try and pin this on Clinton!
LMAO
We have a RIGHT to know who those mass murderers are!
Bush knows, and is therefore contributing to coverup.
He should be charged with conspiracy to hamper the free press, and as an accessorie to crime if his administration is responsible for putting those civilians onboard that sub.
posted on February 16, 2001 02:25:42 PM
Hi you guys...Been working hard!!!
When I heard that on NPR News yesterday, I just about dropped my air brush! Of course, I should NOT be surprised at all, but somehomw, I was shocked!....
What blunder is he gonna pull in Mexico today? Was he excited about going "abroad"..."Oh! Oh! I get to go on a train...."
Or maybe we could book hom on a FISHING BOAT....and have his cronies (civilian ones) man ANOTHER SUB!
The shame of it all! To have hidden that fact from Japan AND from the media! If it is not true, why in the H--l the cover-up? SOB (son of a braindead)...
******** Gosh Shosh!
posted on February 16, 2001 03:06:01 PM
Er-this wasn't a spur of the moment gig. The civilian ride-along was requested months ago by a retired admiral(whose retirement was forced as a political measure to appease another government[what the man said was stupid, IMO, and he should have known better]).
Nor is it unusual for civilians to do ride-alongs in any of the military branches. Think of all the PR flights made with celebrities in the back seats of fighter jets(not just Blue Angels or Thunderbirds). A bunch of TV shows(the Today show and Fox NFL, off the top of my head) have broadcast from the decksof Navy ships. Up until a chopper filled with spouses and AD members went down, those gigs were fairly common(don't know if the Army still does them).
While what happened with that sub was tragic, to lay the blame on Dubya's doorstep makes no sense, unless you're looking for a reason to blame Dubya for something else.
Lord knows the man will probably screw up magnificently on his own. There's no need to blame him for something he probably didn't even know about until after the fact.
Edited to fix some things(my mind is working faster than my hands).
[ edited by Shadowcat on Feb 16, 2001 03:10 PM ]
posted on February 16, 2001 03:39:51 PM
Aw...now Shadowcat, be nice. Let them frolic in peace...they're just having fun. Don't befuddle them with facts...it's just not fair. lol
posted on February 16, 2001 04:36:12 PM
Civilians have been riding in and on military planes, ships, subs, tanks, etc, and steering, pulling levers, and pushing buttons, for eons.
Once the sub was set by the Navy personnel to blow ballast for emergency surfacing, whom pulled the final lever that activated the process was irrelevant. I doubt that the sub was in a manual steer mode.
I am also confident having a bunch of civilians on a nuclear sub was not something that could be kept a secret. There are things called logs, on board and on shore.
posted on February 16, 2001 04:59:00 PM...and is so worried, it's given the task of handling any fallout to Vice President Cheney...
Now, there's a surprise.
-------
One thing I don't understand...
The 2 civilians at the helm (John Hall and Todd Thoman) were interviewed yesterday on the "Today Show". According to them, the periscope check before surfacing detected no obstacles.
How could that be? We're not talking a little fishing boat here. The Japanese fishing vessel was a big boat (ship?).
I'm thinking distraction here.
It's one thing to have civilians on a ship, plane, etc., to observe, but, IMHO, civilians have no business at the controls.
posted on February 16, 2001 05:22:07 PMFemme: I agree. Those civilians had no business being in those seats. It would be like the pilots of the planes who allowed the elder kitten into their cockpits to actually sit in their seats while the planes were flying(they didn't. He watched them do the work).
KRS: Why are you so quick to condemn and accuse of coverup when the investigation has barely started? That link was nothing but speculation and unverified gossip. I suppose that you'll next post links to papers howling about how that one Army helicopter purposely plowed a Humvee into the other helicopter...
Or isn't it important when the military accidents don't cause international incidents?
posted on February 16, 2001 05:28:04 PM
Who knows, maybe Georgie Shrub will reward Katie Harris for rigging the election by letting her frolic around with that neato "Big Red Button".
Or perhaps he let Dad remember the good ole' days, by letting him re-declare war on Saddam?
posted on February 16, 2001 07:45:44 PM
While I am NO fan of Bush, I have to agree with S-kitty. It *is* very common to have "ride alongs". Hell, I'm a civilian and I've gotten to go on several really cool outtings (my dad works for the military as a civilian). I've never gotten to drive a sub....but honestly, if someone asked me if I wanted to I'd sure as heck say yes!
posted on February 16, 2001 08:33:24 PM
Shadowcat,
You'd prefer that the military get stuck with the blame? There is blame to put; they have to because Japan is jumping up and down pretty seriously.
I think that what happened about who was onboard is obvious--Daddy Bush promised his buddies a ride, and little Bush approved it. Probably expedited it, in fact. Fine, no problem.
But the darned thing sinks a Japanese trawler and it does it outside of the specified practice area. Little Bush must have said "Oh, Sh*T!!" and sent the VP to try to smooth things up.
No one could foresee it, but the last thing little shrub needs right now in his presidency is an international incident, especially when he was just about to give the go to bomb Baghdad.
posted on February 16, 2001 09:17:21 PM
Why would Bush need to pull strings to get his friends a ride when doing so (getting a ride) is as common as rain. Why would Bush rush to cover up there were civilians on board when having civilians on board is common?
Excerpt:
"Last year, more than 11,000 civilians took part in 238 trips aboard Navy ships in the Pacific Fleet, according to figures compiled by the Navy. Of those, 13 trips involving 213 civilians were aboard submarines stationed in Hawaii. Among the guests who christened and rode in the Greeneville in 1999 was Tipper Gore, wife of former vice president Al Gore."
"But civilians do more than ride on submarines, aircraft carriers and other warships. They also drive tanks and other military vehicles, witness live ammunition training of ground troops and fly in Air Force jets."
According to the military press release, the subs are not required to remain in the "specified area" to practice an emergency surfacing.
posted on February 16, 2001 09:23:40 PM
Now run and count how many of those civilians are student prospective recruits, ROTC candidates making decisions about which service to go with, soon to graduate technical institute students chosing between air and submarine service in the navy, family members of crew aboard ships (which is the largest percentage) and so many other non-political hacks who finagled a ride for donations.
posted on February 16, 2001 09:32:51 PM
There was even a similar accident under similar circumstances ten years ago, which would place it during the previous Bush administration. Perhaps that's what has made the present Bush White House so up tight about the accident, to the exrtent that Cheney has been assigned to damage control. But like so many previous attempts at political damage control over the years, the cure might cause more damage than the sickness.
posted on February 16, 2001 09:34:44 PM
Krs, if you had served at my department and somehow, by an oversight, you had been assigned as a criminal investigator (a gatherer of facts) under my command, you might have lasted until lunchtime on your first day.
Two hours of that time would have been expended to clean out your desk and have your patrol uniform dry cleaned.
posted on February 16, 2001 09:38:53 PM
And further, the civilian tour had been arranged by Richard Macke, a former commander of U.S. military forces in the Pacific who "was forced to step down over a controversy with Japan, [and] is now Pacific Region president for Wheat International Communications Corp., of Vienna Va.
You may, or may not remember Richard Macke as the naval commander who set the tone of US-Japanese relations back 40 years when he said in public that the three sailors accused of raping a Japanese schoolgirl "should have just paid for a whore, there's plenty of them".
posted on February 16, 2001 09:44:33 PM
So on to John Hall:It turns out that the man named John Hall who was one of the 16 civilians on the U.S. sub that sunk the Japanese fishing vessel last week is neither the Bank One director nor the ex-chairman of the Texas Natural Resource and Conservation Commission, but a Texas oilman (FANCY THAT!!). Calvin Woodward of the AP has identified him as director of Fossil Bay Resources Ltd, the company that fellow sub passenger Todd Thoman was connected with at the time of a '99 Houston Chronicle story. It reported that both Hall and Thoman were present at a Houston Polo Club benefit. Woodward reports that Thoman is no longer with Fossil Bay Resources. A biography of Hall at the Fossil Bay Resources web site
notes that prior to the '90's he was involved in real estate development and construction, but since then he has been a principal/negotiator in a number of transactions between various national energy companies. Today's Washington Post, however, provides contradictory information.While Hall and Thoman were reported as being in Hawaii in connection with activities benefitting the Missouri Memorial Fund, "the two men had worked in the Houston office of Fossil Bay Resources Ltd., a Canadian venture. The Houston office was recently closed, and Hall and Thoman no longer work for the company, according to officials at the firm's Dallas headquarters." What is the relationship, if any, between the Thoman-Hall appearance on the "Today" show and the apparent need for the White House to orchestrate the media's response to the disaster?
posted on February 16, 2001 09:47:36 PM"You may, or may not remember Richard Macke as the naval commander who set the tone of US-Japanese relations back 40 years when he said in public that the three sailors accused of raping a Japanese schoolgirl "should have just paid for a whore, there's plenty of them."
So what, he spoke the truth to the wrong people at the wrong time.
Have you forgot, most service members say the same thing when military personnel commit rape when prostitutes abound.
posted on February 16, 2001 09:50:18 PM"So on to John Hall:It turns out that the man named John Hall who was one of the 16 civilians on the U.S. sub that sunk the Japanese fishing vessel last week is neither the Bank One director nor the ex-chairman of the Texas Natural Resource and Conservation Commission, but a Texas oilman (FANCY THAT!!). Calvin Woodward of the AP has identified him as director of Fossil Bay Resources Ltd, the company that fellow sub passenger Todd Thoman was connected with at the time of a '99 Houston Chronicle story. It reported that both Hall and Thoman were present at a Houston Polo Club benefit. Woodward reports that Thoman is no longer with Fossil Bay Resources. A biography of Hall at the Fossil Bay Resources web site notes that prior to the '90's he was involved in real estate development and construction, but since then he has been a principal/negotiator in a number of transactions between various national energy companies. Today's Washington Post, however, provides contradictory information.While Hall and Thoman were reported as being in Hawaii in connection with activities benefitting the Missouri Memorial Fund, "the two men had worked in the Houston office of Fossil Bay Resources Ltd., a Canadian venture. The Houston office was recently closed, and Hall and Thoman no longer work for the company, according to officials at the firm's Dallas headquarters." What is the relationship, if any, between the Thoman-Hall appearance on the "Today" show and the apparent need for the White House to orchestrate the media's response to the disaster?"
posted on February 16, 2001 09:59:34 PM
That should be easy, an oil magnate, heavy political donor, and personal friend of both Bush's hardly fits the profile of civilians taken aboard US ships for promotional purpose.
And, by the way, that area is an internationally recognised trianing zone for US warships and they are required to stay within the zone for the safety of thei own ships and any others which may be closely avoiding that zone because of what it is. It's clearly marked on all charts, I'm sure, just as the ordnance ship parking places in San Francisco bay are marked. Yet "Wednesday, the Coast Guard acknowledged that the submarine had been two nautical miles outside an internationally recognized Navy training zone when it collided with the ship".
That from the link you provided. Two nautical miles is a long way off.
posted on February 16, 2001 10:08:47 PM
So, do you believe John Hall is the only person of money and influence that has been given a ride on a sub?
Are you trying to say that John Hall was in command of the sub, gave the orders and assigned the procedures for the emergency surface practice, and then steered the sub to the surface?
I do not see the connection with John Hall being one of the 16 civilians aboard and the sinking of the Japanese trawler.
On the last, in accordance with what the Navy command press release given the day following the incident, the specified practice area is suggested but not a hard fast rule.
I am trying, but I just cannot comprehend your implied connection between Bush and Hall, and the disaster. Hall being aboard was no secret and irrelevant.
posted on February 16, 2001 10:17:15 PM
Ah, so you'd prefer that the naval personnel just roll over and take the blame to protect the president?
I've already posted, above, about the why of this, and it's almost time for me to go and watch a favorite thing on television, so you go on fussing in denial of the obvious.
posted on February 16, 2001 10:32:54 PM
Protect the President from WHAT?
John Hall did not give the command to surface and did not in any way cause the sub to go off a path.
Apparently, once the sub is on it's way up pursuant to an emrgency blow, it is a hang on for the ride until it pops the surface.
If there was a need to be low profile, why did John Hall make himself immediately available to the media and has been on several news/talk shows since?
You're trying to find something that just is not there.
Let me help you. Let us do a "Dragnet" on this; "Just the facts, madam, just the facts."
1. Who was in command of the sub?
2. Who would have selected the location to perform the emergency surfacing?
3. Who would have given the order to prepare to surface?
4. Who would have given the order to surface?
5. How does a ship commander know that his commands are understood, are being performed, and being performed exactly as ordered?
6. Was John Hall in command?
7. Did John Hall board wearing a hood and present a false ID?
