posted on February 21, 2001 12:42:32 PM new
It's beginning to look like the civilians aboard the Greenville DID distract the sonar crew. They had detected the Japanese ship, but failed to keep track of it because of the number of Bush donors in the con, according to the testimony of one of the sonar operators aboard.
Dubya has to pack his donors in like sardines in order to have some hope of paying them all back.
When you read from the link note that the new spokesperson for the Navy is apparently a Japanese American. If you think that that's a coincidence you probably believe in astrology.
posted on February 21, 2001 04:44:20 PM new
krs...I've read your link and several of the other related stories. Are you privy to the list of names of the 16 civilians and how they were chosen to be on the sub? I'm wondering how you know they were connected to Dubya or if that is speculation on your part?
posted on February 21, 2001 05:19:43 PM new
Hmmm, all of the civilians aboard were Bush donors.
Impressive how some people have accesses to facts when they were not on the scene and will never be privy to all evidence uncovered in the investigation. Although the odds against success are immense, I suppose that it might be possible to walk on water if you take and hold a deep breath and walk quickly.
If the chattering, movement, or asking questions is sufficient to distract a crew member from performing a crucial task, what the hell would he or she do under actual combat conditions with subsurface missiles, electronic guided torpedoes, and depth charges coming at the sub?
I suppose the crewmember is trying to provide a valid reason for the disaster, but it will not, or at least it should not, fly.
posted on February 21, 2001 05:27:24 PM new
It does. There's Texas oil millionaires, baseball writer(s?), various people with connections to dubya or his dad or both. Wives. 16 in all. They were all in the cooning tower control area, but that area isn't like the ones shown in WW2 movies. It's much bigger.
posted on February 21, 2001 11:45:53 PM new
njrazd - To save you a little time...
These are the civilians' names:
Jay Brehmer, Overland Park, Kan.
Carol Brehmer, Overland Park.
Jack Clary, Stow, Mass.
Pat Clary, Stow.
Helen Cullen, Houston.
John M. Hall, Sealy, Tex.
Leigh Anne Schnell Hall, Sealy.
Mike Mitchell, Irving, Tex.
Mickey Nolan, Honolulu.
Susan Nolan, Honolulu.
Anthony Schnur, The Woodlands, Tex.
Susan Schnur, The Woodlands.
Todd Thoman, Houston.
Deanda Thoman, Houston.
Ken Wyatt, Golden, Colo.
Catherine Graham Wyatt, Golden.
Civilians (non-military) would not included in the UCMJ (Uniformed Code of Military Justice) but in my opinion they may be held civilly liable -generally speaking.
It is in my opinion that if a civilian intentionally interfered while engagement then it maybe considered treason or aiding the enemy.
Generally speaking
I heard the news report that indicated the civilians were considered to be in the way by at least one individual. In almost any work environment particularly such places as military, emergency rooms and so on, a "outsider" can be in the way of the workers. The worker has to "work around" the visiter, always looking out for the visiter to ensure their safety, supervising along with one's duties and also there is the matter of protecting the visiters as well.
For some the observers are not in the way while others think they are. It is a matter of opinion, in my opinion.
posted on February 22, 2001 07:18:10 AM new
If the submarine had stayed in water as shallow as some of the research capabilities demonstrated above, the whole thing would never have happened.
"Hall pulled the ballast-control levers that started the submarine's ill-fated ascent towards the surface. He currently works for a wholesale energy company called
Aquila, which is based in Kansas City, Mo. Jay Brehmer and Anthony Schur, both of whom were travelling with their wives, are also employed by Aquila. Brehmer, additionally,
serves the board of directors of Contango Oil and Gas Company in Houston, Texas. Ken Wyatt works for Aquila Energy Capital Corporation. Todd Thoman used to work with Hall as
an executive for a Dallas-based oil and gas company, Fossil Bay Resources. Thoman and Hall left the company in January. Jack Clary is a respected sportswriter who has authored
dozens of books on sports figures such as Michael Jordan and Tiger Woods. One of his books looked at athletic standouts at the U.S. Naval Academy. Mickey Nolan was the
volunteer chairman of the last two USS Missouri golf tournaments. All 16 guests were major contributors to the USS Missouri Restoration Fund, according to KITV4 News reporter
Keoki Kerr. Their visit to the Greeneville was arranged by retired U.S. Pacific Forces commander Adm. Richard Macke." --KITV4, Hawaii, 2/17/01
Note: Since ex-President Bush is the honorary chairman of the Restoration Fund, we suspect that the Texas oil people are also "major contributors" to the Bush
campaign. This would explain last week's nervousness in the White House, reported by the NY Daily News. 2/18/01
posted on February 22, 2001 09:01:20 AM new
Linda...the party was a blast! A group of 9-year olds making tie-dyed shirts. Took me a few days to recuperate.
[i]Mr. Hall, an energy-industry consultant, served as a Marine in Vietnam. He said he had lobbied for nearly a year to get a ride on a submarine, which, he said, he viewed as the "opportunity of a lifetime."
He said he met retired Admiral Richard C. Macke, who suggested the civilians for the Greeneville cruise, last spring while they were both involved in a golf tournament to raise money for restoration work on the U.S.S. Missouri, the World War II battleship on which the Japanese surrendered in 1945.
Mr. Hall was then the chief executive of Fossil Bay Resources Ltd., an oil and gas company in Texas that paid $7,500 to the U.S.S. Missouri Memorial Association in Honolulu to be a sponsor of the golf tournament.
Earlier this week, Admiral Thomas Fargo, the commander of the Pacific Fleet, told several congressmen that most civilians on the Greeneville were donors to the Missouri restoration fund. But Mr. Hall said that was incorrect. He said he believed only one couple on board, Michael and Susan Nolan of Honolulu, had given money to the memorial.
He said the others were "just a social group that we put together."
Mr. Hall's wife, Leigh Ann, was on board, as was another former Fossil Bay executive, Todd Thoman and his wife, Deanda. Mr. Hall would not identify any others in the group.
He said that none of the civilians were politically active or had any business ties to Admiral Macke.
"When a hell of an opportunity like this comes up to go on a submarine, you get a group together," he said. "It's just that simple."[/i]
Since the arrangements for this ride-along had been in process since last spring, what would Bush have to do with it now? Seems they knew they would be going on this trip for awhile, even before the election. And if their worst offense was donating toward the restoration of a WWII Memorial, that doesn't make them cronies of Bush. Heck, I had a good friend who used to live in Tennessee. Maybe that makes me a buddy of Al Gore?
posted on February 22, 2001 09:28:13 AM new
And you take what Hall said to be gospel? Even when they hustled him up before the cameras to issue denials of any connection to Bush--father, son? Well, of course they did--Dubya needed a quicky divorce from that accident very badly, sent Dick Cheney to handle it, read 'make it go away'. You may buy it, we'll just call that faith based, but you don't matter. The Japanese are not buying it and they do matter.
Why did you leave out that Bush the Elder is chairman of the restoration fund for the Missouri? Did you miss that part?
Lobbied for months....to whom? Clinton? That must have been somewhat frustrating. Yet almost immediately upon seating Bush the shrub the ride is pushed through? That doesn't strike you as beyond coincidence?
Call Macke retired? I'd call him drummed out of service for committing a serious slight to the Japanese people. Bush the Sr. gave him the out of retirement.
Any claim that any person deeply involved in the oil business in Texas is not politically active is ridiculous. They play cutthroat in that game (as poor shrub found out) and if anyone hopes to remain and succeed they'd better butter the right side of the bread.
posted on February 22, 2001 10:21:45 AM new
Actually, I think the lobbying for the ride did start with the Clintons. Goes back to the Save the Americas fund that Hillary is head of. Started with Bill giving federal funding last June for the restoration of the USS Missouri.
posted on February 22, 2001 10:27:23 AM new
Despite all the them/us of politics, some people ride the fence and support who ever can get them what they want.
posted on February 22, 2001 10:41:33 AM newbobbysoxer Hi Thanks...Actually, I said it "tongue-in-cheek", knowing bloody well that they [civilians], would be "protected" ....
******** Gosh Shosh!
posted on February 22, 2001 10:51:59 AM new
krs...I know for a fact that these ride-alongs are not just approved overnight. There are security clearances that must be processed for the civilians, and that takes months. You don't just show up on the docks that day and get escorted on. This would have had to have been approved before Bush was even in office.
And you take what Hall said to be gospel?
I don't take anything I read in print as gospel. Do you? I'd give it as much weight as I do to your KITV4 news report.
Why did you leave out that Bush the Elder is chairman of the restoration fund for the Missouri? Did you miss that part?
Like I said, you can stretch anything into anything you like. I'm sure there are many people, both Republicans & Democrats that are taking part of this restoration. Even I've made a donation in the name of my husband's grandfather who is a Pearl Harbor survivor. Just because people's paths cross in numerous situations, doesn't mean there was anything suspicious in their original request, or the granting of that request. Anyone can go through the process.
posted on February 22, 2001 01:04:43 PM newnjrazd
posted on February 22, 2001 10:51:59 AM
[i]krs...I know for a fact that these ride-alongs are not just approved overnight. There are security clearances that must be processed for the civilians, and that takes months. You don't just show up on the docks that day and get escorted on. This would have had to have been approved before Bush was even in office.
Is that so? You know that for a fact, eh?
Then perhaps you can explain why this report differs from your known fact:
Barbara Wells, who used to live next door, recalled how Waddle would come over to help bring in the bags when her mother visited from New York."He was always very outgoing and friendly," Wells said.
That friendliness often spurred Waddle to invite people to tour his submarine when in its home port, Pearl Harbor, Hawaii. During the last such tour, Waddle struck up a conversation with a couple whom he invited to join other civilian passengers for a ride along the next day.
Those guests were among civilians inside the control room when the Greeneville surfaced beneath the Ehime Maru. Federal investigators have reported that a crew member plotting sonar readings on the submarine briefly stopped performing the task because he was distracted by the guests. The Navy would not confirm or deny the possibility.
The term "briefly" is something new in the descriptions of the passage of time in the Navy, I guess, as it's also reported that the sonar aboard Greenville had contact with the subject trawler 71 minutes prior to the accident. That's one hour and eleven minutes of briefly.
posted on February 22, 2001 01:43:58 PM new
krs...being on a vessel at a port is different than being on it out at sea.
I applied for a ride-along when my husband was in the Navy and his term was up before I could get it approved.
If Waddle is allowing people he just met to come aboard for ride-alongs, then I would suppose he would have to answer for that. Maybe by-passing the normal chain of command is something he picked up from his last Commander in Chief.
posted on February 22, 2001 02:55:40 PM new
Investigator: Sailor, were you the sonar operator on the Greenville on February 9th?
Sailor: Yes, sir.
Investigator: Are you aware that as a result of your incompetence the United States Navy is being held responsible for the deaths of a number of Japanese nationals?
JAG Counsel: My client cannot answer that question as it implies culpability.
Investigator: Is there any reason why you failed to detect the presence of a civilian ship in close proximity to your boat immediately prior to the emergency surfacing drill?
JAG Counsel: I'd like to discuss this with my client before he answers.
(following whispered conference)
Sailor: Uh...I was distracted? Yeah, that's it, I was distracted.
Gotta agree with the sarge on this one. Seems like a probable scenario to me.
posted on February 23, 2001 12:05:31 PM new
more on that news...captain and crew
still possibly candidates for court marshall.
Besides the distraction by the civilians,
crew contributed by not raising the periscope
high enough and failure of sonar tracking
results to be communicated to the control deck.
