posted on April 17, 2001 07:56:30 AM new
Hi Folks,
I just sold a piece of audio equipment to a buyer who says he received it damaged. After I sent him my response about the misfortune and reassuring him of my integrity, he returned with accusing me of fraud, being very insulting and threatening with -FB. Saying that I deliberately took pictures to hide the damage and so on. I asked him to send me pictures of the damage so I could see it, but in his second email he responded to most of my comments but that! Never answered the question! He also had no comment for my statement in which I stated ethically and morally I would never send out known damaged equipment. I did make a mistake in my first response saying it was 1970s vintage when it was 1985 (the year I purchased it, what I meant to say) which was stated in the auction (OOPS!). Guess I was a little rattled by his first message. In all the previous email to this guy I conducted myself in a professional and supportive manner (and his FB rating was good) so I was quite shocked to get flame-mail. But being accused of fraud really
leaves a nasty taste in my mouth not to mention a criminal offense. I'm tempted to ask him again for the pictures, proof of the evidence for which I'm being accused. However, I'm more easily swayed to send him a M.O. for the amount he paid ($91.00) to shut him up and be done with it. For all I know and it can't be proven, he's defrauding me by either breaking the gear himself (through negligence by dropping the unit) or the unit is fine and he wants it free! He didn't take out insurance (although I stated in the auction the buyer must indicate they want insurance or the item will be shipped uninsured!) so USPS will not cover the said damage. This is really the first nasty experience that I've had with a buyer who is not only splitting hairs over the word "excellent" in the condition of which I described the piece, but stubbornly convinced I committed fraud. Any professional in the audio business who would have taken one look at this device as it was being packed and would have said for an older used piece of audio gear it is in excellent condition. I've bought used pieces considered "excellent" before that were in the same condition as
the one I sold, so I saw nothing wrong in my classifying it as such. Understanding that classifications of terms may very with degree among people I started the auction low at $14.99 for that very reason for crying out
loud!! I never expected it to climb to $83.00 although, I paid $345.00 for it originally. No matter what I try to sell I do so with the thought that I am the buyer. As much as possible I try to part with something leaving it in a better condition than I received it. With used audio gear, it's a little harder. Any ideas or thoughts? Thanks!
posted on April 17, 2001 08:06:27 AM new
I don't know the best course of action, but one thing I would do if I found myself in your position (considering refunding the buyer's money) is to require that the item be returned to me before making a refund. There is no way I would let him have both the money and the item.
posted on April 17, 2001 08:14:23 AM new
I'm surprised you would even ship anything uninsured. He didn't want to buy insurance? Well you could have, but then is the headache and frustration of this transaction worth the couple of bucks it would have cost you? Since it's water under the bridge now, is 91 bucks worth the headache? Tell him to send the item back and refund his money and be done with it.
Most all the auctions I've bid on and won, the seller always gave me the option for insurance. They never included it as part of the shipping cost. So when I decided to try my hand at selling I used the same policy that I bought under and leave the insurance option up to the buyer. When I first started selling I didn't give the option of insurance but included it with shipping. The cost went from .85 to $1.10 and boosted my fixed shipping fee up higher than I thought it should be. Nothing worse than the cost of shipping competing with the cost of the item. I then decided to revert back and include the insurance option in the shipping disclaimer. So far, I've had two buyers request insurance so I know people are reading the shipping disclaimer. Yet, is this headache worth $91.00? No, it isn't. From here on I will probably state that it will be included even if the shipping gets boosted a little. That can't be helped.
Yes, I posted this on eBay's open forum yesterday and got 2 responses that I could find saying to get the proof of damage and no refund.
mrpotatoheadd,
He's either going to have to either send me pictures or the item before I move further or decide if he gets a refund.
[ edited by dbsnd on Apr 17, 2001 08:33 AM ]
posted on April 17, 2001 08:42:03 AM new
You might look at signing up and insuring through U-PIC. Their rates are much less than the USPS- $0.60 for up to $50 insured value, $1.00 for up to $100, and I think it is less if you use delivery confirmation. They also insure international shipments, and I believe insurance to Canada is the same rate as in the US. Their claims process sounds a lot easier than the USPS, too.
posted on April 17, 2001 08:46:46 AM new
mrpotatoheadd,
Thanks for the advice. Is there a URL I can go to for more info? Sounds like a good deal. Delivery confirmation I always use and eat the $.40 (WOW, big deal!) as it's worth it.
posted on April 17, 2001 08:49:30 AM new
You offered insurance. The buyer declined it. Let him whine to the heavens. If you're certain that the item was undamaged when you sent it, you have NO obligation whatsoever to refund! Why should you pay the price for his unwillingness to pay for insurance?
When you accepted his payment and shipped the merchandise (FOB if you didn't make other arrangements), ownership immediately was transferred to the buyer. You offered him the option of insuring HIS property. He declined. You had NO obligation to purchase insurance on someone else's property.
This area (the AW Round Table -where you are now posting) is more of a chat board. While you may find some help here, you'd probably get more help by posting to the eBay Outlook, at the URL above.
I hope you were able to read my post to your thread, yesterday before it was WOMD because you included the auction number.
One thing I mentioned was that your buyer (FB = 15) may not have a way to send you a picture of the damage they're claiming. I'd ask them to return it before refunding. BUT, you did sell this item 'as is'. So...
posted on April 17, 2001 08:54:35 AM new
dbsnd, you've learned a valuable lesson then. I never ship without insurance. If the buyer knows upfront in the auction terms that insurance is required, then problems like this can be avoided. Ask for the item back, and refund his money. And get on with life.
posted on April 17, 2001 08:56:07 AM new
The username, dollar amount, and now the feedback rating lock in the particular item and thus the particular buyer ID. Since there have been comments made about the buyer behavior shouldn't some editing be done?
posted on April 17, 2001 08:57:58 AM new
dubyasdaman -
Another concern I expressed to this seller (FB = 15) yesterday, was that if this buyer had paid by PayPal and then decides to file a 'fraud' claim, that dbsnds account *may* be frozen. Or if they paid by check, they may (have) put a 'stop payment' on it. Don't know if dbsn saw that post or not before it was WOMD. Did you dbsn?
I found their website to be a little confusing when I first looked there. They seem to be prompt at answering their email though, so if you don't find what you're looking for on their webpage, I'd recommend sending them any questions.
A U-PIC rep is on the boards occasionally- I don't remember her email address for sure, but I think it's something like [email protected] you could do a site search here on AW, and probably find it.
posted on April 17, 2001 08:59:19 AM new
If you don't mind negatives on your feedback describing you as a "fraud", then by all means follow dubyasdaman's advice. Hope that nasty negative is worth 91 bucks to you!
You're correct about PayPal unless all of PayPal's requirements were met under the seller protection plan. These basically include proof of shipping that can be verified online, shipping to the buyer's verified address, and accepting only one PayPal payment for the transaction.
katyd:
I hate negs as much as anyone and I will take any reasonable measure neccessary to avoid getting one. Allowing a customer to extort a refund when one isn't due isn't what I consider to be a reasonable measure.
[ edited by dubyasdaman on Apr 17, 2001 09:08 AM ]
posted on April 17, 2001 09:14:39 AM new
dubyasdaman,
Your drift is similar to what I gleaned from eBay. Sorta the way I'm feeling about this anyway. Really appreciate your input and everyone else's as well.
Linda_K,
No doggoneit! I didn't see your post. After I posted my diatrib on eBay last evening and read the few responses (didn't see any here when at AW I looked) I shut the computer off. Saw an email this morning from AW saying my "piece" was nixed. You bring up a good point about the guy not having away to send pictures, however, he's not saying so. His #1 gripe is I sent it damaged. That's an accusation of fraud and a criminal offense. I am prepared to give him 2 options: 1)send proof of said damage; 2) return the item.
krs,
"Don't recommend until you try". What does that refer to? As you point out, some of the items I've collected or picked up I may have paid insurance for and not known it. As I previously said most of the sellers I have dealt with for over the last year had given me the option. The ones who didn't most likely operated under your method. Thanks!
posted on April 17, 2001 09:20:56 AM new
dubyasdaman: Extortion? Hardly. The buyer is unhappy with the condition of the item. It should have been insured before it was shipped. That goes on the seller. Your attitude speaks volumes about the way you choose to conduct your online business, which is your right of course. This can be resolved simply and quickly. Why drag it out? Refund the buyers money, learn a lesson about shipping and insurance and get on with auction life. It might be worth 91 bucks for you to make a point, but we're not talking about your 91 bucks, are we? We're talking about dbsnd's 91 bucks. So....if a nasty negative is worth the money to him (as it appears that it is to you) than he can follow your advice. Or he can follow mine, and get on with his life. The choice is his.
posted on April 17, 2001 09:35:22 AM newThe buyer is unhappy with the condition of the item. It should have been insured before it was shipped. That goes on the seller.
Incorrect. It is the buyer's responsibility to insure HIS property, not the seller's.
And yes, if the buyer plans to call the seller a fraud unless he refunds, that is extortion. You're right, it is the seller's call about how to handle this situation. He will do what he believes to be in his best interest.
IMO giving into extortion is NOT in his best interest, but only he can ultimately make that decision.
Why drag it out?
Because believe it or not, there are still a few people who have principles that they live by, and allowing someone to pull what this bidder is trying to pull is a principle that I would refuse to yield on.
[ edited by dubyasdaman on Apr 17, 2001 09:38 AM ]
posted on April 17, 2001 10:01:16 AM new
KatyD & dubyasdaman,
I appreciate your opposite views. Both have a lot of merit. Thanks. I view this thing as such: A seller can never cover his rump enough so it seems. In a perfect world, all a seller should need to do is say "insurance optional" in their disclaimer. The responsibility of the buyer is to read it, decide, and notify the seller with their preferences. Shouldn't really need to spell it out. In our imperfect world, a seller will get some responsible buyers who do what they should do. Then there are the irresponsible buyers who ruin it for all of us and provide lessons learned. Don't know if I made much sense, but although the burden of proof is on the buyer to provide evidence of damaged goods (as I understand it), I know it all can corkscrew around where I become the villan. So, future precautions are in order! Sending refund money to sooth the savage beast? There's no gaurantee it will. Is this a case of buyer extortion? Could be, but there is no way I can prove that, although, my feelings and thoughts are being pulled in that direction. One point you guys are absolutely correct on, it's not your problem, or your item, or your money...it's mine. Thanks for your time and concerns!
posted on April 17, 2001 10:07:34 AM newIn our imperfect world, a seller will get some responsible buyers who do what they should do. Then there are the irresponsible buyers who ruin it for all of us and provide lessons learned. Don't know if I made much sense...
I don't know- I think you pretty much summed it up right there. The only thing left to decide is how to balance the two, and each seller has to do that for himself.
posted on April 17, 2001 10:29:38 AM new
mrpotatoheadd,
...and I might add that balancing act can be deceiving at times as well, so we sellers are never "quite out of the forest". I once viewed feedback between a seller and repeat buyer: one minute they're praising each other's panties off then the next it's mortar fire! I found it quite peculiar and even laughable, but I'm not laughing now. Although the feedback process is the best we have to work with, there is never a gaurantee when someone (buyer or seller) decides to go rabid.
posted on April 17, 2001 02:08:04 PM new
When an item ends with that high of a value, I would suggest shipping via UPS. That way you get the free insurance - and the added value of tracking on the internet at http://www.ups.com
