posted on June 25, 2001 05:54:44 AM newHelen: I doubt that you are still reading the other thread so I thought I would post here. I know that you probably did not say the things you said about other posters here because their views differed from yours. You may have been appalled at the feelings of some. I feel the same way about society in general. People in the "real world" are very unkind and uncaring. Mrs. Yates is a great example of this. A lot of people knew she was mentally ill for a long time. Instead of helping her, they put her on some pills and let her stay home with her kids. No one cared enough to say, "Why don't you take a break from your family and get well?". To be honest I don't know what to think anymore. On one hand she seems to be a very disturbed person who snapped, on the other hand she methodically killed her kids. The blame should not rest on her shoulders alone though. The blame also belongs to her husband, friends, family and society. I feel the same way every time I hear of a tragedy that could have been jprevented. I felt the same way with the Columbine killings. It is so sad that all those kids died, but who do we blame? Gun laws? The parents? Marilyn Manson? Society? Those kids would have gotten guns somwhow if they really wanted to. The parents probably did not teach those kids to kill just as the parents of some of the victims didn't teach their kids to be kind and not make fun of other people because they are different. I don't think that Marilyn Manson told them to go into a school and start shooting it up. I can understand why they did it. I was teased mercifully my whole school career. Every day I cried. NOne of the teachers cared, the only thing they told me was, "Ignore it". That didnt work. I can understand how a kid can snap and start killing his tormentors. I didnt deal with it that way. Not a day went by that I didnt wish my tormentors dead. I knew that that was the only way I would ever get peace.I attempted suicide at the age of 11.Actually that is the first time I tried many times after that. Instead I quit school and hid in a room literally for five years. I survived, but it was so hard. It took every ounce of courage I had to go back to school last fall. I had attempted once before, I even registered for classes. I couldnt make myself go. I am now a college student with a strong B average. But I am still a screwed up person. I dislike people in general because I see people as cruel, hurtful creatures. I am a very distrusting person and allow almost no none to get close. I have been married for three years and it took two to completely trust my husband enough to let him get close to me. I can understand how someone could snap and be brought to the point of taking a human life.I know how it feels to be so unhappy you pray for death, to not be able to get out of bed. I am still a little cracked and I doubt that I will ever be "normal" What Mrs. Yates did was horrible and unimaginable to most. I can't understand how you can kill your own kids. I hope that some good will come out of all this. Maybe another mother will get help before she does something unthinkable.
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[email protected]
Caravaggio/confusedandsleepy are not my names at eBay.
[ edited by caravaggio on Jun 25, 2001 10:53 AM ]
posted on June 25, 2001 06:44:35 AM new
caravaggio
First, I want to tell you how much I appreciate your thread, giving me the opportunity to explain my feelings. After reading the responses this morning, I was really confused about how to explain that my intention was not to "dam" anyone as was mentioned by a poster, but rather to dispute
what I saw as a callous disregard of people in trouble. The Yates woman for example and finally people living in poverty who were faulted for having babies.
The saying, "There but for the grace of God, go I" illustrates how I believe that we should view these problems. We should all stand together
united and just do the best that we possibly can to help and understand.
You are right, I did not make that post, only because I disagreed with the posters individually. I especially regret including Toke in my remark because she was only agreeing with one of the remarks as she interpreted it. Along with some other posters, I interpreted it differently.
Like you, I am especially sensitive and bleeding heart should probably be my middle name.
Thank you again for giving me this opportunity to explain my remark.
By the way, you obviously have shown a remarkable amount of courage to overcome your problems. I wish you the best!!!
posted on June 25, 2001 07:02:33 AM new
Someone in the thread posted a good poem by Kipling. Another good one is, If.
If
If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you;
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or, being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or, being hated, don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise;
If you can dream - and not make dreams your master;
If you can think - and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with triumph and disaster
And treat those two imposters just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with wornout tools;
If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breath a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: "Hold on";
If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with kings - nor lose the common touch;
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you;
If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run -
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man my son!
posted on June 25, 2001 09:57:47 AM new
Caravaggio,
You mentioned going back to school. I did the same thing after my three children were old enough to go to school and I understand the reservations that you had. But, by taking it step by step, I was able to do it. It reminds me of my experience learning how to swim... when I was 30 years old. I was having difficulty learning how to dive so my swimming instructor told me don't think about it. Just do it!
You had a thread recently about a decision related to your Art History major. I would advise you to take whatever interests you. I majored in Art History and Studio Art and had so much fun. Even now, I occasionally take an art class at our local community college. I sincerely hope that you have as much fun as I have had. You certainly do deserve it!!!
posted on June 25, 2001 11:01:32 AM new
Caravaggio & Helen,
Please forgive me for butting in.
Caravaggio, I hated school...I suppose that I wanted my tormentors to die, though I really don't recall now that I did. I certainly had less than a healthy self image. And I quit school after finishing the 8th grade.
I did do college as an adult (33 year old freshman), and did well. I have had a family of my own and over all feel it is a sucess. I know I have my own quirks, but they are a portion of me and I accept them. (A nice way of saying I am a little screwed up too).
I think being involved as a healthcare practitioner has made me aware of how fragile mental health is and how none of us are guaranteed that we will avoid severe mental illness. It is frightening. All of us react differently to various stimuli, and frequently react differently to similar stimuli under different conditions. Mental wellness is the ability to cope with things that happen to us and around us. It takes very little to disrupt our coping ability. Sometimes there are chemical disruptions, sometimes psychological disruptions, both are real.
Anyway, discussing our differences, talking about our experiences, reaching out to others...that is what will bring a true dialog about any given subject.
posted on June 25, 2001 11:10:34 AM new
I am glad I gave you a chance to explian yourself. I feel as though I contributed to it because I kept arguing with them. I knew you didnt mean it the way it was taken. I also knew you may not come over to that thread again. This is such a hard case(Yates). I know how it feels to be mentally ill and to be pushed to a point where murder starts to look like a viable option. If she had snapped and killed her husband we would not even be talking about it, but it was her 5 little kids and that makes it hard to keep perspective. Thank you for your kind words and the poem. I keep bringing up my depression not because I want sympathy but because I want people to understand. In all honesty I will probably go into social work because I want to help people like me. I still intend to work for a masters in Art History. The problem with that is I just love the history part. I love learning about the whats-and-wherefores of art. I am very good at that part. I don't even have to try to come out of an Art history class with an A. I very rarely make below a 96 on any of my AH tests. I cant really draw. My Art History Prof says I will learn and she has taught me some. I am probably considered a bleeding heart. I hate living in a world where people are dying from hunger and freezing to death because they have no home. In a world where we cannot be kind to another person for whatever reason. Or where animals are killed just because of a case of road rage. It is the bleeding hearts that will help fix all this, I hope. Thank you again=) [email protected]
Caravaggio/confusedandsleepy are not my names at eBay.
posted on June 25, 2001 11:21:18 AM newBittybugI don't mind that you butted in . It's nice to know somebody else thought that too. People who didnt go through what we have been through dont understand. This is proven by all the teachers who said,"Ignore it". It never was that easy. You don't know how much better it makes me feel that someone else dropped out because of this too. For years I felt lazy and worthless. I don't think people realize how depression effects people. They look at it as just being a little down. I feel very down but it affects so much more. I can't concentrate, I either eat to little or too much. I have an anxiety disorder that complicates things to no end. By having this discussion I hope we have taught people some things. I have learned a lot about PPD. [email protected]
Caravaggio/confusedandsleepy are not my names at eBay.
posted on June 25, 2001 12:14:01 PM new
caravaggio
They are having a discussion on CNN right now about the condition of Andrea Yates.
By the way, I have a lot of art books and supplies that I don't need. If you ever have a problem finding anything,
just let me know and you can have it for free if I have it.
posted on June 25, 2001 12:47:17 PM new
Caravaggio,
You mentioned an anxiety disorder. I had my three children very close together and I did not drive (until I was 37), so I was home most of the time. There were several years where leaving my own environment created a great deal of anxiety for me. Returning to work and school was difficult, but it definately made it easier on me in the long run.
posted on June 25, 2001 01:44:16 PM new
Caravaggio,
At the risk of butting in, congratulations on the classes you've completed. I suffer from depression and generalized anxiety disorder also so I can empathize. I was majoring in English when I dropped out of college in my Senior year in 1970. I don't think many of my friends or family realized what a burden I carried. But when I was twenty-eight, I returned to school and majored in Fine Arts. I was thirty when I finished. I've held a variety of jobs including being a photographer and writer for a newspaper. I've actually tried to keep my interest in art away from the 9-to-5 grind - to the point that for about one year I did field work in entomology.
Major in the field that interests you. My favorite Art professor had majored in English and gotten her master's and doctor's in Art History. Teaching positions are hard to come by, but there are many ways to use your knowledge of art.
Don't feel that you have to perform to someone else's standard. We all just go around once (except maybe Shirley MacClaine). There isn't a perfect script out there - we just do the best we can.
posted on June 25, 2001 03:09:56 PM new
Thank you Helen, that is so cool of you to offer. I just got home so I probably missed the CNN thing. Has anything new happened in the case, I have yet to check the news. I can't even imagine what the dad is going through, he lost his kids and wife(pretty much) in the same day.
bittybug:I find that the more I get out and the busier I am it takes the edge off. But sometimes it is hard just to take that first step out the door.
saabsister:I dont mind that you have butted in. I thank you for your kind words. To finish school is a great acomplishment for anybody, but when people with depression and anxiety and the like finish, to me it is really special because it is such a struggle.
[email protected]
Caravaggio/confusedandsleepy are not my names at eBay.
[ edited by caravaggio on Jun 25, 2001 10:53 AM ]
. It's nice to know somebody else thought that too. People who didnt go through what we have been through dont understand. This is proven by all the teachers who said,"Ignore it". It never was that easy. You don't know how much better it makes me feel that someone else dropped out because of this too. For years I felt lazy and worthless. I don't think people realize how depression effects people. They look at it as just being a little down. I feel very down but it affects so much more. I can't concentrate, I either eat to little or too much. I have an anxiety disorder that complicates things to no end. By having this discussion I hope we have taught people some things. I have learned a lot about PPD. 