posted on June 24, 2001 09:55:58 AM new
I am reading all of the negative posts about the "alternative" sites. Everyone is using ebay as a yardstick, and there are even discussions about how scared ebay may or may not be of another smaller site.
People seem to criticize a smaller site for not doing something to spend humongus amounts of cash to advertise and shovel buyers through their venue.
Now, I want to know, does anyone really expect ANY site, that is already operating, or may start up, to plop out the megamillions in cash to go head to head with ebay immediately?
Consider the resources needed to quickly put such a mega site up in such short order. you have to be able to attract millions of listings, and the bidders to support them. You have be able to service and monitor them. And you have to be able to maintain them. This means people and equipment to handle the volume and problems and glitches that would constantly be popping up also.
Ask yourself, is this reasonable to expect?
And if it were feasible, and someone were to do it, what would you end up with? Another Ebay? WHY???
I am not a gardner, but I understand that when you plant something it has to grow. You do not receive a bumper crop the first season you raise a plant from seed. Why does anyone expect this from an auction site.
I now list only at Bidville, so I can only speak about the experiences there. I don't believe that the others there want another ebay. I don't. If I did, there is already one on the web that I could use.
I am not sure if this post is going to do any good, but I just wanted to point out that not everyone wants to be on ebay. and it is not really reasonable to expect ANY site to get that big overnight.
The different telephone companies around the country did not start out as mirrors to Bell Telephone, did they?
posted on June 24, 2001 10:28:39 AM new
Hi Jim, Suzi_Teacups here (yes, from Bidville)...I'm with you, we don't NEED another Ebay... Ebay can have it's own slice of cyberspace for those sellers who do well there (high ticket items). I for one am NOT one of them. I sell inexpensive pieces of individual quilting pieces known as "fat quarters" (basically 1/4th yd of 100% cotton fabric) and it doesn't PAY for me to sell at Ebay, nor do I want to list my simple $1 start/no reserve items there.
Ebay can have their place, but they have no place for me to sell...and Bidville has great from me from the first day I signed up!
posted on June 24, 2001 10:28:46 AM new
Hi Jim, Suzi_Teacups here (yes, from Bidville)...I'm with you, we don't NEED another Ebay... Ebay can have it's own slice of cyberspace for those sellers who do well there (high ticket items). I for one am NOT one of them. I sell inexpensive pieces of individual quilting pieces known as "fat quarters" (basically 1/4th yd of 100% cotton fabric) and it doesn't PAY for me to sell at Ebay, nor do I want to list my simple $1 start/no reserve items there.
Ebay can have their place, but they have no place for me to sell...and Bidville has great from me from the first day I signed up!
I think you are absolutely right! It is a catch22 as far as advertising for these smaller sites.
First off, there needs to be items on the site. If there are no items, then why bring bidders?
If there are no bidders, then why list?
I the problem is, some wish instant gratification. Lot's of impatience. If sellers are truly disgusted with ebay, then they need to stop putting all their eggs in one basket.
I understand some have a lot of money in an item and need a quick turn over. If you have items where you don't have alot invested, why not post them at other sites? You are helping yourself, just as much as the site, by doing so.
I also believe the smaller sites have learned from ebay's mistakes and will not follow the same path, such as not getting input from the users before implementing something new.
posted on June 24, 2001 11:32:38 AM new
Well I like the idea that's floating around that what we need is a member owned non-profit or co-op gateway/pathway system that invites customers to start at one location and connects to all the various sites, web pages and methods an individual seller might use to market his items.
Then everybody is free to use whatever suits their needs, including eBay listings, and commercial sites can compete for both sellers and buyers.
Wouldn't cost much, the sellers could promote it's existance and the day to day work could be farmed out to businesses under contract to the non-profit.
posted on June 24, 2001 11:42:26 AM new
Hi, Jim. I think you are right. No one can reasonably expect to build a site that gets "in eBay's face" overnight. eBay wasn't built in a day, and considering its dominance and customer loyalty, that job is even harder now. Any site that can give eBay a run for its money would probably BE anther eBay. What's needed is a site willing to make a long-term committment, and provide users with a guarantee that they won't be cast aside or forgotten once the site becomes successful. For example, stock dividend rewards in proportion to sales.
. Online Auction Sellers Co-op
posted on June 24, 2001 11:59:10 AM new
"Speaking for myself only." I like the smaller sites the owners work with the people buyers and sellers. I am not looking to get rich but I do not like lossing money paying to list, relist, relist and when it sells FVF. Ebay is the big boy but to me they are lossing sight of the people they work for the buyers & sellers new fees new rules trying to keep any information about any other site from getting out. I see alot of people say Ebay I hate them but they are the only game in town. Not true! Ask yourself are you getting rich with ebay I was not but I was small time I only had over 400 feedback when I left.
If you want ebay to wakeup and smell the coffee move some of your listing to the small sites. The only thing ebay understands is money before they see that they are not doing the sellers right they have to loss some of the money they hold so dear. This is just some of my Opinion and only my opinion. Have a nice buying/selling day. Oh I sell on Bidville & Auctionsaloon stop and shop.
posted on June 24, 2001 01:16:47 PM new
Now I know there are many, many opinions out there so I thought I'd drop mine into the ring as I'm a seller myself.
I want a site that has sell through. I don't want to have to go to a hosting site and I want a payment service.
I also want responsive customer support. It doesn't have to be right away but within 72 hours. I'm tired of useless canned emails.
Now what does it cost?? A basic site with very little traffic costs very little. For what ebay delivers it certainly doesn't cost 15 cents for what they provide.
For what ebay offers it costs under 4 cents per listing. Now they also have the economy of scale factor in place. A smaller site would have to pay a bit more.
For a small site to offer all of the services I have mentioned would cost under a dime. That includes proper maintenance. Add in a proper percentage for marketing and you're looking at 6-7 cents per, maybe 8.
You have to decide what you want?? A new site can't meet all the needs across the board at the beginning.
If you look at bidville almost half their listings are sportscard related.
They should have some sort of presence at the National. They don't and won't because they don't have the resources. I'm sure if their sellers had a say they'd come up with some loot??
There's no free ride. You may get a free sample but if you want the product all the time you have to pay for it whether you're a co-op or not.
posted on June 24, 2001 06:55:40 PM new
Jim
I appears that some people feel they do need another eBay. Well if they do then they should build it. I suggest that the world is big enough to support the large and the small. They definitely have seperate reasons for being. I personally like the smaller, warmer site that Bidville offers. If I have some particular item I want to sell on one of the "larger" sites then they beauty of the world is that I can go there too. But I will remind everyone, listing on eBay and not paying for the whole listing of "extras" does not guarantee you selling the item. And Yahoo in my opinion is super dull at this point. Didn't the former Yahoo CEO go to Ebay for his car shopping?? I'll bet he over paid too.
Just my two cents worth.
posted on June 24, 2001 08:04:59 PM new
Its about bidders, they control the vertical, and they control the horizontal - if bidders were unhappy with ebay, it would be a footnote in the history of online commerce.
If bidders truely wanted speciality sites, there would be several popular busy sites for every major catargory of collectible.
Sellers have very little say in the matter, indeed sellers can only react to whims and patterns of the bidder. For the most part, sellers are powerless to steer the ship.
posted on June 24, 2001 09:08:55 PM new
Well said Rustybore. I think that's why everything is geared to the buyer, not the seller. Any fees for buyers on eBay or any other online auctions? any buyer PayPal fees?
posted on June 24, 2001 09:43:19 PM new
Canvid, Rusty, Bids. I am not even going to argue the points,(?), you have brought up. However, I don't see what they have to do with the subject of this thread.
The point I am trying to stress is Why build another Ebay? There is already one on the net.
Wouldn't starting a site to immediately go into direct competion with ebay be pointless?
ESPECIALLY considering the immense investment it would take to be able to just open up and do that kind of volume.
I am not trying to argue sell thru, or cost per listing, I think it would be like trying to start an aerospace company to compete with NASA.
posted on June 24, 2001 10:08:02 PM newI am reading all of the negative posts about the "alternative" sites. Everyone is using ebay as a yardstick, and there are even discussions about how scared ebay may or may not be of another smaller site.
Ebay isn't scared. Why would on earth would you thing this? A yardstick, well what the hell else do you have?
People seem to criticize a smaller site for not doing something to spend humongus amounts of cash to advertise and shovel buyers through their venue.
True, and they might have a really have a good reason for doing so. Sure some may have a few bucks to spend on this venture, others none but the bottom line is Ebay has been around awhile. How about the new ones?
Now, I want to know, does anyone really expect ANY site, that is already operating, or may start up, to plop out the megamillions in cash to go head to head with ebay immediately?
No way, but I do think it could be done with the right management.
Consider the resources needed to quickly put such a mega site up in such short order. you have to be able to attract millions of listings, and the bidders to support them. You have be able to service and monitor them. And you have to be able to maintain them. This means people and equipment to handle the volume and problems and glitches that would constantly be popping up also.
Absolutely 100% correct. It would take mega bucks to even get a piece of the pie.
Ask yourself, is this reasonable to expect?
Nope!
And if it were feasible, and someone were to do it, what would you end up with? Another Ebay? WHY???
Sure, I would love the oppurtunity to have another Ebay. What would it end up with, that would depend on your greed.
I am not a gardner, but I understand that when you plant something it has to grow. You do not receive a bumper crop the first season you raise a plant from seed. Why does anyone expect this from an auction site.
Thats right it does grow doesn't it? Perhaps you should wait and see how your auction site grows?
I now list only at Bidville, so I can only speak about the experiences there. I don't believe that the others there want another ebay. I don't. If I did, there is already one on the web that I could use.
You say that you only list at Bidville but really where did your experience come from?
I already know the answer. Ebay. LOL
I am not sure if this post is going to do any good, but I just wanted to point out that not everyone wants to be on ebay. and it is not really reasonable to expect ANY site to get that big overnight.
This was a interesting post and you are right, not everyone likes ebay including myself. Tell me where you have an auction site that is not corrupted where you can sell your wares on?
The different telephone companies around the country did not start out as mirrors to Bell Telephone, did they?
Internet laws will apply here. It's coming folks. It will take time but me knows it's on the way!
posted on June 25, 2001 12:38:23 AM new
Let me just say that YES, we do need another Ebay. If ebay had some real competition do you think they would inact many of these policies? Look. Ebay knows there is no reasonable alternative, they can force buyers and sellers to conform.
If bidville did get close to the, market share as ebay then they would charge close to ebay's prices maybe a bit less, point is they would charge because they can and they are in this to make a profit just like Ebay.
Do you think bidville or any other up and coming site cares about you? The bigger they get the more they will charge.
If bidville did get to be another ebay it would be good for us all but, your nest thread would be:
Do we need another ebay or bidville?
It's time to start supporting the new breed of sites that have our best interest in mind like a co-op or libertybid, where the fees and other changes have to be voted on by the members.
These are the types of sites that won't be another ebay no matter how big they get!
posted on June 25, 2001 01:57:21 AM new
Jim, why do you think it would take mega bucks to advertise a site? The 3 most visited sites on the web (even eBay's huge #'s aren't near the top 10) for a very long time have been AOL.com, MSN.com and Yahoo.com. AOL & Y don't publish ad rates but MSN offers 7 different banner ad packages ranging from $100 to $1000. That sounds quite economical to me, even for a small site.
I'm pasting a quote direct from the newest auction start-up Gegy.com (posted here 6/19)
"We completely understand that the entire success hinges on our ability to bring in buyers - and lots of them! Our marketing budget for our first year exceeds 7 figures.
Besides advertising all over the internet via banners, advertising and articles -- we have targeted many high profile traditional medias including a radio satellite tour in mid July, print publication in many newspapers and magazines including the NY Times, Yahoo! (2nd quarter), and all of the Krause publications and smaller trade publications like Antiques Weekly, etc."
It sounds like they aren't afraid to try giving serious competition to eBay from day 1 and they aren't even open yet. They may or may not be successful quickly but at least they know what's necessary and are willing to give a serious run. They have the vision and funding lacking in all the recent start-up sites.
"Do we really need another eBay?" If you mean one-stop shop for virtually anything desired, high sell-through, multi-thousands of successful sellers & repeat buyers and most important-a site willing to do all it can to attract new buyers. The answer is ABSOLUTELY, both buyers and sellers need an alternative of that kind ASAP! In the context of a site with oppressive rules, unreasonable fees, refusal to listen to users etc. the answer is obviously no. But hopefully these other sites learned from eBay's mistakes and won't repeat them.
Does anyone really think a buyer gives a flip what rules & fees a seller has to endure? Nope, they see tons of ads telling them they can find anything they want at eBay, they visit and see it's true. They buy, get hooked, tell their friends. Good deals are addictive and if a buyer only knows of eBay where else are they going to go? A site becoming successful keys off advertising.
Someone said BV doesn't have enough stock to advertise yet. Perhaps, but Yahoo only has 200,000 ads. They run a very small ad campaign on radio & in magazines and boast a sell-through of over 30%. BV has 650,000 ads and less than 2% sell-through, what could testing a few cheap ads hurt? Especially if they did it on a mega visited site like MSN. The Yahoo customers probably come more from web links than the radio & print ads.
For months people on various boards have defended the small sites refusal to advertise saying users should bring their own customers. Now does anyone seriously believe the few hundred or thousand users BV, epier, etc have in a week can make a dent with "word of mouth" to the 14 million unique weekly eBay users? Sorry but I must LMAO at that unrealistic concept. There are mega-millions of surfers that haven't tried any auction site yet, what is supposed to bring them in? Success depends on effective advertising.
If a bunch of sellers leave eBay they are quickly replaced, buyers still find what they want so why would they go elsewhere? Especially if they have no one to advise them there IS an elsewhere. You may be willing to wait months & years for buyers to find your listing site, I'd rather use a site that will try to bring traffic now. At least one new start-up finally understands that and has a plan to get widespread attention rather than let their sellers ads languish.
posted on June 25, 2001 07:09:46 AM new
Just a note:
There are already to many Ebay lookalike nameless sites, one thats probably wasted as much money as all these alternative sites combined together, and their not making it.
Can these others learn from the big Gorilla's mistakes, and even with money backing them, will it be enough. It hasn't worked yet, but hopefully the alternative site trend will keep growing.
The buyer's rule, If they do not buy, sellers do not sell, as simple as this. So why do all the unhappy buyers and sellers, still stay at eBay, that's the 24,000,00.00
question ?
Crychek, moving on.
[ edited by crychek on Jun 25, 2001 07:12 AM ]
posted on June 25, 2001 07:23:04 AM new
A very inspired post by uptoolate. Very well thought-out and dead on in all aspects. Many people eagerly await gegy.com's new auction to see if a lot of money spent on advertizing will really work to make an auction site at least semi-successful. If so there will be a lot of once-loyal Bidvillians transfering items to gegy.com
posted on June 25, 2001 11:22:18 AM new
The initial question is "do we need another ebay?". My answer is no. But, realistically what small, new site doesn't look at eBay's mega-profits and see the same as a possibility down the line?
We sellers are all business people and we understand the desire and need for profit. There is nothing wrong with any site making a profit. But, just as with eBay, as any business evolves their profit goal and the way it is met also evolves.
If you are selling a dollar item and making a fifty cent profit on it; how desirable is that when you find you can sell a ten dollar item with the same fifty cent investment? eBay has moved on from it's small profit listings being desirable to a larger profit corporate path. There is no going back for them.
There has to be a forward movement for the rest of us. But that movement is not free of a monetary investment on our part. You know the saying "you get what you pay for"?
The smaller auctions are hoping to get large enough to attract investors or be able to borrow and then advertise. Before they can get that investment they do as much limited or free advertising as they can.
Gege.com is a well thought out site and is fortunate in having investment money up front for advertising. I wouldn't be surprised if those owners or investors were people we all know from these boards.They are definitely well worth watching to see if a million plus in advertising will work.
But remember through all of the coming search for an alternative lisitng place, that the cooperative is alive and well out there! This will be the only model that will directly benefit and be controlled by the seller/member. Cooperative corporations are businesses first. They are planned, financed and marketed just like any regular business. But, the coop's goals are slightly different than other businesses'. Growth, stability and profitability are ALL for the benefit and advancement of no one or nothing but the member/owners. Any business you invest your listing dollar in is a gamble. Joining a coop means you gamble on yourself.
posted on June 25, 2001 12:54:42 PM new
Folks I went to the gegy site and all it was to me was an excuse to get our information and sell said info. If you read their user agreement that you have to accept to be in their beta group you will see it.
They don't have a site up yet.
I'm not bashing them, or accusing them. I'm just being the voice of caution as something doesn't jive for me. I don't know who they are and I don't know why they need all of our info just to beta test?? They've gone on many boards and I'm sure have the info of hundreds if not thousands of people.
Probably nothing is being done wrong but if there is something up then all of these boards will have helped perpetrate this.
I believe you have confused sarcasm with "promotional wording". I'll try again.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I will be one of the first to welcome gegy or any other auction site that successfully competes with the big kahuna. However, in my travels, I have learned not to believe everything I read. Here are some examples:
1. Yahoo sell through rate has increased.
2. The website formerly known as ***Bay has 1.4 Million Auctions daily.
3. Dutchbid will reopen shortly after the scheduled downtime.
[sarcasm]
On that note, I am off to put the final touches on my new website. It has all the features of Amazon, Yahoo, eBay, PayPal, PayDirect, Billpoint and Google with a touch of e*Trade. I have millions and millions and millions of dollars reserved specifically for advertising to bring buyers to the new site. Once it is open, I will invite everyone for a beta test. For registering, you will be given 10,000 shares of common stock and receive a date with Pam Anderson or Tommy Lee. (your choice)
[end sarcasm]
Canvid - your desperate attempts to flame all other auction sites makes the co-op less credible. Individuals can post such information and opinions. You, however, represent the co-op whether you want to or not and will be better served by being nice.
[ edited by gottaknow88 on Jun 25, 2001 01:22 PM ]
posted on June 26, 2001 12:15:41 AM new
coolvete, guess again, please. I have never sold anything on ebay, may have bought , ...uhm, two items, but I couldn't really be positive of that. That site so turned me off with it's rules when I first visited it, and then the quirkiness of trying to register, I never did list antything.
At that time, Yahoo was easier to use and FREE.
Anyhow, now that most of you seem to understand the track of the original post, now consider that you are one of the successful sellers on ebay, with a steady group that looks for your auctions. What am I as the person who just spent all of this money for equipment. personel and advertizing going to be able to do to attract you away from that site, and get you to come to my site? Now understand, I just spent this great amount, I want to make it back, with a big dividend, something much better than I could have gotten by more conventional investment elsewhere. So you can imagine the kind of rules I am going to impose.
The way I see it, it would actually be pretty pointless to do this, in that fashion.
#1 the money could be used to bring you a better and surer return elsewhere.
#2 now you are locked in a battle to the death with an established mega corp that will be forced to defend it's site tooth and nail, and they already have the traffic, and experience.
(Just for the record, this is all supposition, I am not nor have any intentions of opening an auction site. So this is not in any way a plug?)
posted on June 26, 2001 03:06:55 AM new
Sellers are fed up with ebay now more than ever so I don't think it would take much to attract a portion of their listings to a site with real promise. Not a little site the general public will likely never hear of. A site with a plan to attract major public attention. You call it pointless that Gegy has big dreams and big plans to compete? IMO it's more pointless these hundreds of other sites bothered to open with no plan to draw traffic. The market is oversaturated with pretenders, not contenders. People with bills are very excited a site actually wants to be another ebay (well known, vibrant, successful marketplace).
eBay makes listing fees whether you sell or not and FVF's if you do. If you're not selling you're not going to keep listing so they have to provide traffic and they do a great job of it. Gegy will be commission only, if you don't sell they make nothing so they have a bigger stake in providing traffic (thus the big ad campaign). I haven't seen their commission rates yet but since their intent is to take a chunk out of ebay's market surely they will be comparable. They already have them beat with free listings.
Now the free small sites, what do they care IF you sell anything? They aren't making any listing fees or commissions if you sell. They aren't losing any money if you leave so what's their incentive to provide traffic? Take BV, they make money from Premier memberships. All they need you to do is buy credits & list. Whether you sell or not they made their cut from the member fee. Similar deal on epier, these sites have no stake in your selling success. I guess that's why they refuse to spend any advertising money (even though ads can be bought for as little as $100 on the 2nd most visited site on the web).
I'm not saying small time sites don't have some purpose. For me they provide space for low-end stuff I'm in no rush to unload. I've listed on several for 5 months, they have all proven OK for really cheap stuff and a total wasteland for attempting to sell anything over $5. But that's OK, I have no problem moving the $5 and up items on the big sites. But I could sure use another ebay (well known, vibrant, successful marketplace).
posted on June 26, 2001 04:44:02 AM new
Uptoolate: Some of us don't believe in making big brash statements and making promises that sometimes don't get kept. Politicians have been doing this for hundreds of years.
So some excitemtent is created and some rush over. And then others pay for it when those who've been fooled get resentful.
I personally don't believe that this secret site that nobody who I've asked has heard of has been in build mode for a year without any of us knowing anything??
If I had built this kind of site I'd want to show it off.
All I see right now on their site is a flash page, and a form for all of your info, that you have to enter into an agreement, that allows them to do whatever they wish with.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to flame or bash these people. If they are legit then it's great for all sellers and that includes myself.
I just don't like what I see at the moment? Why do they need to own our personal info at this stage? At least in the form that is mentioned in their user terms.
Read the agreement. I know I did. I'm simply responding to the material.
posted on June 26, 2001 04:45:35 AM new
uptoolate? Is that YOU over HERE in the OTHER ONLINE AUCTIONS board promoting eBay?
Didn't you just jump on me for daring to speak on the Yahoo board about BidVille? hmmmm.... double standard?
posted on June 26, 2001 07:18:58 AM new
cuff .. uptoolate was promoting the "need need another ebay" topic, not ebay itself. His words ring true and they may sting some of the people that are gaga about their small, no traffic sites.
The proposed new auction site that is often discussed may or may not become a reality but the idea of some type of a contender is the topic of this thread. The new contender doesn't have to try to overtake the BIG site, just take a nice chunk of it's territory. If the new site can have some serious traffic and no listing fees and just a decent FVF then they may give the BIG site some kind of competition. Maybe in time the BIG site might even lower it's listing fees to keep from losing too many sellers? The lowering of listing fees on the BIG site is only something we can dream about without a serious contender to make it a reality.
posted on June 26, 2001 08:30:31 AM new
I dared to speak of Bidville in reference to the slow season, stating that BidVille is not slow currently due to our $1-Sale and was attacked by uptoolate in another thread.
There's no reason other small sites can't do the same thing BidVille is doing. Yahoo can't because Seller's have no voice there. Same with eBay.
So... another eBay? No... I don't think THAT's what Sellers need. Or am I allowed to have an opinion? I've sold at eBay, Yahoo, eDeal and Amazon. I'm at BidVille now and I would not be there if it was even remotely like eBay. Yahoo had a great thing and they blew it and NOT by charging fee's. Many people left because of the manner in which they were treated after the new CEO Terry Semell blew into town and tried to change things at Yahoo OVERNIGHT without regard to their paying customers and stepped on many toes in the process. I said none of this in the other thread and there is oh so much more that could be said.
