posted on January 17, 2001 06:26:10 PM new
Like many of you, I have been looking at a lot of the alternate auction sites. 1 or 2 operators have done a good job of implementing their sites - but I can't help but wonder why they put in the time and money in the first place. The chances of making any money are an extremely long shot for them at best - and there is no longer any venture capital money around to help them. You have seen two of the absolute giants of the internet - Amazon and Yahoo - pour millions into trying to do it, but both have failed to attract the critical mass of bidders needed (so far Ebay is the one and only site to have done this. Everything else is simply a glorified classified ad site with odds of pulling more than one bidder for any given auction infinitesimal).
I would love to see one of the upstarts succeed as I hate to be in the position of having to deal with a monopoly since they can dictate whatever terms they choose. Still the odds are so stacked against these newcomers I wonder why they take on the task and believe they will be able to do something their much better funded rivals could not.
[ edited by InternetEdge on Jan 17, 2001 06:27 PM ]
posted on January 17, 2001 06:34:10 PM new
One thing that a lot of these new start-ups probably try to do is be different than a site like eBay. Even if it's in one area. Like customer service, or free listings, or whatever. Trying to find that one thing that eBay isn't doing that they can succeed in and hopefully become a viable player in the auction business.
posted on January 17, 2001 06:41:32 PM new
Yahoo tried the free listings and from a business standpoint it didn't work (at least that is what they claim). They had hoped to sell the millions of page hits for advertising dollars, but sponsors would not pay enough. These small sites get the tiniest fraction of Yahoo page hits so they will never be able to pay their bills with advertising $, and people won't pay them a listing fee, so how are they going to make it? Again, I hope a couple of them beat the odds and produce a viable free site that they can keep alive - I just don't see the economics that will allow them to do it - so I wonder why they even try.
posted on January 17, 2001 06:45:01 PM new
I think it depends on what exactly they plan on doing that will allow the free listings to stay in place forever. And paying for the "extras" (ie: bold type, feature auctions, etc.) is not going to be the answer. Sites will need to do something else in order to stay afloat.
posted on January 18, 2001 05:04:00 AM new
Why try? Probably just that good old "anyone can make it in America if they try hard enough" attitude.
Unfortunately, re-inventing ebay doesn't seem realistic, and none of the wannabes seem to be addressing the problems people claim to have with ebay. The costs associated with starting an on-line business really aren't that massive, and this probably encourages people who would not have the resources to start a B&M business. In addition, computing power makes it seem practical to make your money by taking a small percentage of a transaction (whether by listing or final value fees).
When the first antiques group shops opened, they were wildly successful. Then anyone with a vacant building they couldn't lease or sell decided to get rich by opening one. There aren't many of them holding 10 year anniversary parties.
posted on January 19, 2001 03:46:12 PM new
TO INTERNETEDGE AND RB. DO YOU MEAN TO TELL ME THESE THINGS HAVE A LOCK ON THEM FOR ALL CAPS. ACUTALLY I THOUGHT THESE WERE INFORMAL FORUMS AND IT DID NOT MATTER. THAT'S WHAT MY BUTLER TOLD ME.
posted on January 19, 2001 04:32:29 PM new
InternetEdge,
Great point! And while we are thinking in those terms, why pour anymore money into finding a cure for cancer? It seems like a losing propostion. Millions of dollars down the drown and still no cure.
Why continue to make orange soda? Coke is obviously the leader in soft drinks. Why would anybody pour their hard earned money into making orange soda?
Why would anybody in their right mind continue to make new car designs? We have cars that work just fine!
Why is it that we are wasting so much money on space exploration? We already have a planet and it seems just fine.
Most importantly;
Why would anybody waste their time with constant discouragement of others?
Obviously most of this post was a bit fececious, however I did mean the last one.
InternetEdge, out of bordom I did a search on your posts and every single one of them was putting somebody or some company down. For fear of getting too personal in the eyes of AW, I will not offer my opinion on people like you, but I'm sure that most readers of this will agree that the best way to respond to people like you is with a big "whatever.
I'll wrap it up now because I'm sure that there are some kids that need their candy stolen from them or something like that.
posted on January 19, 2001 08:31:56 PM new
auctiongaurd - I have no idea why you have picked me for character assassination (maybe you are a spammer from an auction site I criticized). I don't mind criticism but I do object to outright lies. You say you have researched my posts and every single one is putting someone or some company down. I guess you mean posts the like the one quoted below:
"forshoppin - I checked out your listings on AuxPal. It's true, you are getting as many bids there as the average person would get on Yahoo. I also started listing on AuxPal this week but nothing is happening for me yet. But I went into a category that had virtually no listings before so it will probably take a while for people to find them. Good for you though. I hope there will be more stories with happy endings from people who find alternate homes to Yahoo."
I hope forshoppin will forgive me for being so hard on her! And I hope those people who I wished success will over look that mean spirited comment.
The forums are not for discussing personalities, but since you decided you would ignore that rule, I think I have a right to answer. I won't respond to any other personal attacks you might want to make. I do find it interesting that you accuse me of putting people or companies down when that was the one and only purpose of your post.
[ edited by InternetEdge on Jan 19, 2001 08:32 PM ]
[ edited by InternetEdge on Jan 19, 2001 08:32 PM ]
[ edited by InternetEdge on Jan 19, 2001 08:35 PM ]
posted on January 20, 2001 07:15:28 AM new
I will say this. Aside from the personal attack, Auctiongaurd's comments were the kind I was trying to elicit from the subject of this thread, "Why Are These Other Auctions Even Trying?". As an entrepreneur myself I already knew the answer to that question, but I was hoping that others would react to the provocative nature of the question and state the reasons why these auctions are trying and in fact do have a chance to make it. I should have been more direct with the thread topic and made it "What Will It Take to Win?" as that is the discussion I really wanted to see develop from this question.
In our business we sell in a field with massive competitors but have managed to get along nicely by carving out a niche for ourselves by meeting a demand the larger companies either overlooked or do not care about servicing. You do not have to have a huge market share to succeed IF you can find an underserved segment of the market and take care of that segment's needs and concerns. Many have stated they do not think any of these alternate sites have a chance. There is no doubt they are all long shots, but 1 or 2 of them just may perform their mission well enough to surprise everyone and break out of the pack. Lord knows we need some alternatives to the current limited choices.
I think it is obvious they are all trying because they think they have a chance to carve out their own niche - but what will it take for one of them to win? Aside from the obvious (attract lots of bidders), I think customer service is the key starting point - because that is where the existing giants are so sorely lacking. You can attract sellers by listening to them and making them feel like you appreciate that they are there. AuXpal is the only alternative site I have tried so far (over 500 listings) and their customer service has been a complete breath of fresh air. I am not seeing much bidding activity there yet but I will stay and give them a chance to build it up because they are showing me respect as a seller and have bent over backwards to meet all requests that I have had. I'm sure some of you have had similar experiences at others sites and if so I would like to hear them because I will try them too.
My original question may have portrayed me as someone who is anti-entrepreneur, but just the opposite is true. I have the utmost respect for small businesses because I know what they go through. Often you make money for everyone except yourself. You work endless hours trying to take care of the business at hand while everyone else has their hands in your pocket. If any of these other sites break out, I will be the first one to jump up and yell "Way to GO! You did it!".
posted on January 20, 2001 07:43:11 AM new
InternetEdge: If I was easily offended I wouldn't come to this board. I visit here to get all different opinions and thoughts. I like the controversy, etc because it expands the mind set and thus great things can be accomplished. When I started selling on Yahoo several people I know laughed at me as it was such an unheard of place and some didn't even know there was such a place. I chose it because I liked the "feeling". It was free and I could list my stuff for as long as I needed for it to sell. This whole situation has left a bad taste in my mouth and I am very skeptical about any site. However, AuXpal is associated with NoBidding which is a site I have used for about 1.5 years and I have been pleased with NoBidding so I figure I will give AuXpal a try. I will continue to watch these boards, listen to the suggestions and comments and enjoy the diversity of the people here. My auctions are still doing well there!
leathernlace4mom everywhere else
posted on January 20, 2001 04:24:11 PM new
In the long run ebay will help another site succeed. The process has already started. Their lack of respect for their "community" has led to some impressive numbers going up on other sites, along with quality items. So I would say it is sooner than you think until someone gets noticed.
posted on January 21, 2001 12:22:57 AM new
Compared to starting a business off line, hosting an auction site is relatively cheap. There may be a big payoff for 1 or 2 of the "other" sites with so many items being pulled off Yahoo. The key to success will most likely be the site that doesn't try to compete with eBay but offers a real alternative to eBay. I assume Yahoo was no longer satisfied with just being an alternative.
posted on January 21, 2001 11:22:50 AM new
All it takes for an alternative auction site to succeed is for the sellers to be willing to post there. Where would ebay be without sellers? DUH. But sellers do not seem willing to do this.
Some of you are too busy attacking each other and, in frustration of not knowing how else to attack, throw out the word "spam" on these boards.
You guys wanna see REAL spam??? Let me forward you the crap I am getting from slimeballs using fake addys and fake "click on to remove from list"
lines at the end...and coming right through my spam and junk mail block.
THAT is spam. And guess where they originally got my addy and are selling it? You guessed it..ebay! Cause I never use the account it is coming in on for anything else.
I actually read these boards partially to learn of alternative sites. If the
postings and info re alternative auction sites is spam, then keep it coming cause I call it HELP, not spam.
Those of you who have posted the names of other sites, thank you! It gave me a list of alterntives to check out. I am starting to list at some, but I am NOT expecting them to have ebay traffic overnight....unless a lot of you jump ship...then it won't take the buyers long to find the merchandise!
~After all is said and done, more is said than done ~~
posted on January 21, 2001 05:30:04 PM new
Aramatha:
A lot of the spam that was posted on the Yahoo message board here on AW a few days ago was obviously not from sellers of other sites but by OWNERS or EMPLOYEES posing as ordinary sellers. Thank goodness it finally stopped!
Integrity is a big issue for me in business. I don't want to do business with any site where the owners think nothing of lying to sellers.
posted on January 21, 2001 08:00:20 PM new
Thanks, Irene. I'm surely with you re integrity. I had not read the yahoo board so didn't know that. I was a bit touchy re "spam" cause I found Auxpal (like the site) through posts here and, when I mentioned it, got accused of spam.
After more than a year of reading these boards sporadically, it was just today that I realized there are some posting with ulterior motives (on some other threads)....think I'm a bit of a dim bulb here Before I read your post to me, I questioned whether I was right or not, even tho it was so obvious....thanks for alerting me. I appreciate it....time I started reading closely instead of just skimming through.
~ after all is said and done, more is said than done ~~
posted on January 21, 2001 08:24:21 PM new
Gheesh, Irene...thought I'd go over and read the yahoo boards after reading (and replying) to your post.
Then I realized that I had read a lot of the posts on the yahoo board. So, not only a dim bulb here , but looks like I don't even know where I'm at half the time.
Guess it's time to give the boards a rest and get some auctions posted before my brain's completely fried.
~ After all is said and done, more is said than done ~~
posted on January 22, 2001 12:27:44 AM new
These people see that ebay is making Billions of dollars, so they think all they have to do is have an auction site of their own. They really lack foresight and marketing experience. In a year most of these small sites will be gone, we've already seen two close recently. Unless these other sites form a niche quick, and promote their site more, they'll be down the drain soon.
posted on January 24, 2001 02:28:25 PM new
Why are we even trying? An excellent question, InternetEdge, and one that I've often asked myself since starting Popula three years ago.
We never doubted that competing against the almighty ebay would be a tough proposition, but we thought two things would happen that would enable us to succeed:
(1) ebay would become too big, with so many listings that it would become only "searchable", not browsable. The online auction market would fragment into smaller, specialized sites, just as department stores eventually gave way to specialty retail. (Hence, the bigger ebay gets the happier we are).
(2) People would be attracted to sites with more style and individuality -- features, by the way, which no amount of money can really buy -- and with less of a corporate attitude. For that reason, mostly, we weren't particularly fazed when first Yahoo and then Amazon decided to join us in the fray.
Well, were right on (1): ebay certainly became big - they had fewer than 200,000 listings when I first started selling there. And it really is no longer as easy or (for me, anyway, as fun) to browse, even though the categories have become progressively narrower and narrower over time.
Probably where we mis-estimated was in the rate of traffic growth. We had expected much faster growth from word of mouth. We did get a lot of new members from being recommended by Tipworld, Netscape, here on Auctionwatch (thanks, guys!), eTour, About.com and others, but we thought we'd get more from the "you tell two friends" type of recommendation ("viral marketing" in the parlance of the Venture Capital world). The cost of advertising, though, has dropped to a fraction of what it was when the dot-com frenzy was at its peak, so we get a lot more traffic for our money now than we used to.
Although it hasn't been easy, we're very pleased with what we've been able to do in our more than two years on the web - with less money, probably, than ebay, Yahoo and Amazon have spent on paperclips during the same period. As we say in our pitch to auction sellers (see http://pix.popula.com/items/whysell.htm), it's not the site traffic itself that counts but the number of times each page is viewed, and on that basis we provide an excellent service, particularly in areas like vintage clothing and out-of-print books. A lot of people have complimented us on our customer service, and we really try hard in that area. Certainly, we've attracted just the kind of community we originally hoped for.
What does success really take in the online auction business? Just that buyers and sellers should both come to the same site at the same time, really. It's taken us longer than we originally expected to achieve this seemingly simple feat, but we've been around long enough now for our name to mean something and we're getting closer every day even while comparatively fat competitors like Auction Universe and Boxlot fall by the wayside. If you're as serious as you say, though, in wanting to see one of us upstarts succeed, then the sooner you -- and others with the same resolve -- get out there pointing sellers and their customers to the upstart's site, the better!
Thanks for reading!
Oliver
www.popula.com
("Where'd You Get That?"
[ edited by oliver2 on Jan 24, 2001 02:31 PM ]
posted on January 24, 2001 06:20:41 PM new
I just tried auXpal and within an hour I had 8 bids on one item, sold another and a bid on another and hits all over. I'm impressed with the Site Format, easiness and quick respone to questions by Staff. Site seems to be growing fast and I see only serious Sellers/Bidders there. No quirks or gimmicks!
posted on January 25, 2001 07:33:56 AM new
Oliver 2 - GREAT POST!! Thank you for giving us some real insight into the minds of those who are out there doing the real spadework in this field. I think everyone who reads your post will find it enlightening and it is just the kind of response I hoped to see (but did not expect to get). I will certainly check out your site. You are quite right - it is up to us, the sellers, to make an alternative work with our support.
posted on January 26, 2001 04:05:20 PM new
What a new site needs to do is be more creative instead of just cloning Ebay. Ebay is successful because it was unique at the time it was started. Half.com is successful because it was unique when it started. There is no excitement created in "just another auction site".
posted on January 26, 2001 05:17:55 PM new
Oliver2, I just checked out your site, "Popula," and I'm impressed someone has it figured out-form a niche, not a clone to the giant auction sites. I think your site will grow in time because it is specialized and cannot possibly attract all kinds of sellers and buyers.
The home page needs some work, not very attractive and difficult to get started IMO. I'll bookmark your site and hope to come up with something to sell there.
posted on January 26, 2001 06:48:54 PM newOliver2: I think Popula is a good site, too. I plan to use it more often. It's like browsing in a really interesting store. I never know what I'll find.
My only problem is that the font that is used for the category listings is difficult for these old eyes to read. Looks like the credits from a spaghetti western. Can you pass that suggestion along? I just got new glasses, so I've done my part.
posted on January 27, 2001 05:32:19 AM new
Oliver ~~ That was an excellent post, my hat is off to you!
Folks, the smaller sites are like the mom and pop brick and motar shop that are in every city. What you get (hopefully) is personalized service from someone and interesting products that your not likely to find in the dept. stores. They are interested in your experience and usually go the extra distance, because they want you back. Now try getting that from the big sites! If that ever happens you have found a true miracle!
I have been watching this thread and there are a lot of good points made here. I am the president of DutchBid.com. A lot of you heard of us for the first time when we announced the acquisition of Golds Auction software. I thought that this would be a great thread to update all of you and also to add my thoughts to this thread. (I also posted a similar message as a reply to someone on another thread)
DutchBid has been growing rapidly at a steady pace. We were doing so before the acquisition of the Golds assetts and we are doing so after as well. We were lucky enough to get a lot of press in our early stages and have one particular story make the AP Newswire and show up in thousand of newspapers worldwide.
On December 9th we acquired the Golds auction software after the site's unfortunate downfall. We had every intention of bringing the Golds auction software back to its members by the first of January. That week we were informed by the former owners that there was a problem with the software and they were working to fix it. It has been a few weeks and the former owners say they are still working to fix the software.
Believe me, we are just as frustrated with the situation as all of the Golds members, maybe more if that is possible!
However, not all is bad! In the weeks that we have been waiting for the Golds auction software to be delivered as promised, we have spent nearly twenty hours a day working to beef up DutchBid.com. Our intent all along was to continue to run DutchBid as well as bring back GoldsAuction.com, so these improvements were scheduled, but for a later date.
Very shortly (we hope within the next two weeks) we will be releasing the new version of myDutchBid, where sellers will be able to manage their auctions with the click of the mouse. We think that it will be one of the most easily managable seller account areas available.
Also, we are working out the final details of several partnership programs that will feed our sellers with bidders. While we still have every intention on moving forward with our advertising campaign, it seems that networking with other established sites and businesses is far more successful these days than traditional banner advertising. After all, this is the World Wide Web and we feel that it should be treated that way - as an ongoing weave of networks that bring buyers and sellers together.
There is a lot of discussion about what it would take to make a viable alternative to eBay. We believe that there are many sites out there and like a fellow auction pioneer said in an above post, all it takes for a viable alternative is for buyers and sellers to "both come to the same site at the same time". Sounds easy, but we believe that it will take a few of us smaller sites to join forces and turn our smaller sites into something of great competition.
What I mentioned above sounds easy, but many of these smaller sites feel that they are able to do it on their own and do not want to take part in any merger talks with any of their competition. Of course that is their peragotive and I wish them the best of luck, but DutchBid is continuing our talks with several sites that share this same mentality and enthusiasm - time will tell, but our confidence is high!
There are many good auction sites that if joined together could possibly make one of the most functional online selling communities on the Net, but ease of use and functionality mean nothing if the buyers and sellers are not meeting up with one another. The marriage of several sites will not only bring some of the best functionality around to one central loacation, but also bring together each site's buyers and sellers.
Our plans are simple: 1) continue to improve our operating system by adding or enhancing the features that our members are asking for and 2) advance toward the goal of creating one of the largest buying selling communities on the Internet through mergers with other auctions and through strategic partnerships throughout the Net.
I know that you are probably going to ask which sites that we have been in talks with, but please understand that there are confidentiallity agreements that would be broken should we disclose this information.
I hope that I have helped you understand the thoughts and goals of DutchBid.com, but if anybody has any further questions, please do not hesitate to email me.
posted on January 28, 2001 06:03:29 PM new
Thanks, quickdraw, for your kind remarks. We'd love to see you selling on the site.
I also would like to hear any suggestions you (or anyone else who visits Popula) may have as to how we can improve our navigation. Just e-mail [email protected]. I can't promise anything about improving the looks - our graphic designer and number one asset, Maria, gets a bit cranky when the sharpness of her cutting-edge skills are impugned -- but we're very quick to implement good suggestions on navigation, categories, etc, from our regular sellers.
Thanks, also, InternetEdge and elecdata1, for your welcoming and supportive comments!
[ edited by oliver2 on Jan 24, 2001 02:31 PM ]