posted on June 11, 2001 04:33:50 PM new
According to the owner of Auctionpie, the following statement was sent as part of a newsletter to AP subscribers:
Clarification: Co-op or not? - Hi All, It's also time for us here at Auctionpie to clarify things for you. While Auctionpie will not be a true co-op in the true co-op legal sense, we still stand by all of the beliefs that we have written about and talked with many of you about.
I have searched Auctionpie's site, including the newsletter archive, but can find no other reference to this statement.
The above statement raises some questions, in light of AP's upcoming membership drive. I don't think Auctionpie's statement clarifies or answers any questions. In fact, it raises more questions than it answers. In particular, the phrase "not be a true co-op in the true co-op legal sense" seems problematic.
1) Will Auctionpie be run as a co-op, or a for-profit site?
2) What benefits do members receive? Will Auctionpie be run cooperatively (one member, one vote) or will final policy be decided by AP management?
3) If AP is run in the co-op "style," why not make it a legal co-op?
4) If AP is run for profit, what happens to those profits? Are they returned entirely to members, or will distribution be decided by AP management?
I am concerned about these issues because for months AP has solicited volunteers and subscribers with the promise of delivering a an auction sellers' co-op. Now, just a short while before beginning their membership drive, AP appears to be retreating from that promise. The only notice of this change was a small blurb in a newsletter which apparently (some) members did not receive.
I would like to give Auctionpie a chance to address these issues publicly.
posted on June 11, 2001 07:41:10 PM new
This is interesting. A simple Yes or no. If it is Yes I would think they would be happy to say YES YES YES we are a Co-op. Since they are not responding I believe if I were you I would figure the answer is NO and they dont want to talk about it. To bad brand new and already they dont want to answer questions put to them. You would think they would at least do a dance around the question for you. You know (I will ask the boss) or (I will bring that up at the next meeting) something along that line. If people have already sent money thinking they were joining a co-op I am afraid they were mistaken. Hope you get a answer but dont stay up all night waiting lol. Have a nice buying/selling day.
posted on June 12, 2001 04:56:43 AM new
Hi Telwil,
The quote answers the question. We will not be a "legal" co-op entity. We are going to be a seller based and driven site. None of our beliefs or platforms have changed. We also have answered this question in the other membership thread and we all know that AW doesn't like multiple threads.
We are releasing information as we always be upfront. However it won't be in this thread.
We will answer any question except now we have twinsoft on ignore. He is the only person we have on that and it certainly is not our habit. We will answer any polite question put on Auctionwatch in the appropriate thread. Most of the info we release is not on this site as we don't wish to break any of AW's guidelines.
posted on June 12, 2001 08:24:08 AM new
hmmmm I am still trying to figure out what was unpolite in Twinsoft's post?
I think the questions are legitimate and need an EXACT CLEAR answer, not the foggy and muddy answers that have been put forth so far.
Ain't Life Grand...
[ edited by Twelvepole on Jun 12, 2001 08:27 AM ]
posted on June 12, 2001 08:42:18 AM new
Thanks for the reply. Hmmm I take it the answer to the question is (NO?) if auctionpie is not a LEGAL CO-OP then it is not a co-op right??? If that is true then people need to stop advertiseing it as a co-op. I believe the question put to Auctionpie was a honest upfront question and by this person being put on ignore tells me the way auctionpie probley will be run. If we dont like it we will ignore it. I wish any new site luck I would like to see a site come up and give ebay a run for their money I believe in free enterprise. But I will give Auctionpie room to me if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it is a duck. Once again thank you for the information and good luck to you and auctionpie. Have a nice buying/selling day.
posted on June 12, 2001 12:27:10 PM new
Hi Telwil,
Well actually I don't think you've seen anyone from Auctionpie use the term co-op for quite awhile.
We have been dealing with the legal frame work of what we want to do and felt that a true co-op is not the best way to safely affect what we want. We also want to be upfront with all concerened which is why we have released this information at this time.
However Auctionpie is still going to be a seller supported, seller driven, seller goverened and a successful and stable place for sellers and bidders to enjoy the online auction experiance.
Sellers will have a direct role in the policies and structure of the site and benefit from its success directly.
It's pretty exciting actually.
However this will be my last post in this thread. If you want more info please use the other thread here on AW. And if you want even more details feel free to email me or to peruse our info site as all the info is around there or in the process of going up.
posted on June 12, 2001 01:23:11 PM new
I wanted to give Auctionpie a chance to explain this statement, "Auctionpie will not be a true co-op in the true co-op legal sense." It seems they are unwilling to do so, whether because they feel doing so would violate AW guidelines, or because they think certain posters have an axe to grind, or for whatever reason. Or perhaps, as AP has said, the statement is 100% clear. I agree with telwil, if it not a "legal" co-op, then it is not a co-op at all.
If Auctionpie is willing to discuss their membership drive, then they should be willing to disclose what exactly the benefits of membership are. The AuctionPie site has "co-op" written all over it, including AP's mission statement. Now we have some small blurb in a newsletter, and AP's owner stating "well, we don't call it a co-op any more." Huh?
This whole thing reminds me too much of Orwell's Animal Farm. AP needs to address these issues publicly.
posted on June 12, 2001 01:27:56 PM new
Twinsoft and Canvid13,
It is obvious there are issues between you that cannot be solved here - Please make use of your Ignore button, or take the issues to email if possible.
posted on June 12, 2001 02:53:46 PM new
I wouldn't mind some clarification on this myself. I just took a look at the AP site and twinsoft is right, the words "co-op" and "co-operative" are all over the place. In fact, the home page says, "home of the auction sellers co-operative". "Founding a sellers' co-op" is their "top priority". "Our purpose is to create a Co-operative online auction house that would be non-profit, non-saleable, one member one vote, and non exclusionary so that we can all build our business in a safe and stable manner."
If AP is no longer a co-op, I suggest they update the web site!
FYI - the quotes above are from the web site itself, not any message board.
AuctionPie and the Co-Op are not auction bussinesses they are only discussions at this point.
as much as I would like to here Jamie explain these statements from last weeks news letter as well since it is all news to me as much as all the rest, BUT to call this anything more then a discussion about organizing is really a stretch.
Since as far as I know No Co-OP or auctionPie its self is selling nothing asks for No money There is no "SHAM" Fraud or waisting of time here at all.
posted on June 12, 2001 10:47:12 PM new
"Sounds like the sham I warned you all about..."
To all who agree to this statement, and to the source.......I am profoundly disturbed by it.
While I must agree that our web site needs a bit of updating, I assure you that the months and months of hard work that I and many others have put into AP have not been in planning a "sham". I resent the statement made here and would like very much to see a retraction and hopefully an apology. I for one am very proud of the work that has been done by myself, and the others that I work with.
Unfortunately the announcement that was made via my newsletter comes at a bad time with both of our web design people unavailable. I was asked to update the site and have yet to get to it with my schedule the way it has been. See boys....it's called work. I will say though that it is at the top of my to do list. That may sound like a relaxed thing to say, but I am a volunteer, not an employee. I should hope that anyone associated with AP would understand this. The site will be updated at my earliest convenience. Please check back within the next few days for the latest updates.
As for an explanation of whether AP will be a Co-op or not, I think Jamie meant well with his statement but it may have been worded in a way that was not so clear.
If I may, I would like to try and make things a little clearer for you all. Anyone that has followed this group from the beginning knows that we started out as a "Co-op effort". Through the passing months though, it has been a concern for all of us that auction users were becoming frustrated with the term. Many have said it was getting old. Many were even losing interest simply because there was no tangible or concrete evidence to show that the "Co-op" would be something real for them to participate in. A concept is a hard thing to sell. How do you "show" people a "Co-op" as is stated in a legal sense. (By legal sense, what is meant is the traditional step by step procedures to forming a co-op. It is not so much a legal document to which organizers must adhere to. It is merely a set of guidelines to which organizers traditionally follow.)
Within the guidelines it is stated that a co-op be formed with those steps in mind. Since we at AP were hearing more and more that users were becoming frustrated with all of the discussions about the co-op and not seeing anything come to fruition, we felt that something needed to be done to refresh the morale and enthusiasm of sellers and buyers who were interested in seeing a site with them in mind become a reality. With weeks of discussion and concern about the co-op movement possibly losing its momentum, we decided that if we showed people something tangible it would build the morale and excitement back up and get people once again involved in building a site that had their best interests in mind. A site with all of the co-op qualities and user benefits that were discussed from the beginning. The problem was, without following the "guidelines", which stated that policies and provisions come first, the product (AP in this case) comes second, we could no longer be called a co-op in the true sense of the word.
This is what I think Jamie was trying to say when he made the statement in question. Unfortunately, when posting on message boards, as we all know, our words may as well be etched in stone. Hopefully though, readers will find my words a bit more comforting.
I am usually not very good at posting anything and refrain if at all possible because I have a bad habit of confusing people.....but in reading this thread, I felt that some posters were obviously misinformed and wanted to try and clear the air. Hopefully I have done that. If not I am available for discussion with anyone who wishes to address me.
Again, Auctionpie is not and never will be a "sham". The AP site and newsletter were built from the ground up by sellers just like yourself. Our main goal is to provide a stable place for sellers to build their businesses without the fear of being pushed out, charged to death, and bullied by constantly changing policies and restrictions. Our promise to each and every seller is and always will be that they will be able to have a say in how AP will be run.
I liked the part in this thread where someone said; "if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it is a duck". How true! Auctionpie walks and quacks like any co-op I've ever seen!
posted on June 12, 2001 11:49:33 PM new
When is this "co-op" auction going to start? How many members do you think will be willing to pay in this "member drive"? It seems to me that there are a handful of people interested in this, everybody else in the auction world just wants to make money, so we stick with eBay and the like.
posted on June 13, 2001 12:31:47 AM new
First let me say good luck auctionpie. I have been reading the post about this (co-op????) because like other it sounded very interesting and yes I remember the talk about people putting money on the line to get it started. My guestion is since auctionpie has changed direction and is no longer going to be a (legal co-op) if people had sent in donation will auctionpie offer them a refund since it has desided not to become legal? If the site is not a co-op then that tells me it is privately owned who ownes it? Whos name is on the paper? And if there is only one person in charge then the rules can be changed anytime he/she sees fit. You can have one vote for each member but with no power behind the vote your vote can be taken away at any time just like going from co-op to no co-op. I believe this site is going to be going through alot of changes and I hope for its members they are good changes. The Auctionpie promise is something that can be changed at anytime if and when the people incharge deside to. I feel the site is no different then alot of the rest JMO. And I do wish you luck I liked the co-op plan maby some day a real co-op will be created you know (A LEGAL CO-OP) Have a nice buying/selling day.
posted on June 13, 2001 01:30:24 AM new
Thanks for the well-wishes telwil.
"since auctionpie has changed direction and is no longer going to be a (legal co-op) if people had sent in donation will auctionpie offer them a refund since it has desided not to become legal?"
In response to your concerns, I will start by saying that Auctionpie has all but changed direction. I can't stress this enough. Our plans to provide a place for sellers, built by sellers have remained the same since day one. The only thing that has changed is that sellers will be able to see and participate in the process much easier than they could before. Our decision to drop the co-op name was based on concerns that if we didn't we would still be only talking.
Also, as it has been said before, at no time has Auctionpie asked for donations or accepted any. If we would have, yes, if contributors were to ask for a refund we would gladly have given it.
Another point I would like to make is that AP has not decided to "not become legal". Every business whether for profit or not must be legalized. I believe that there is some misunderstanding and confusion when it comes to the words "legal" and "traditional". AP will be a legal entity but it will not be the traditional co-op as presented in the past. Our goals are exactly the same as when we first started. It can be seen within any message board that we have posted in. There has been much discussion between ourselves and sellers & bidders about what the cost of membership should be and we listened and drew on that. We have also discussed other aspects and benefits of membership and have based every decision that was ever made on that as well. Time will be the test here. We understand that people will be leary and opinions will fly, but when it comes down to it, the proof will be in the pudding, so to speak.
------------
"You can have one vote for each member but with no power behind the vote your vote can be taken away at any time just like going from co-op to no co-op."
You are correct here if we were talking about any other site. Auctionpie, however, will be held to a legal documentation of its promises to all members. A set of laws if you will, a system of checks and balances, that will ensure that nothing written can be changed without a vote from every member being counted. Majority will still rule. While we are aware that this might be a big concern to all interested, We assure you that without risking the chance of quoting a misstatement on this thread all I can say at this time is that all of this will be presented at the time of our membership drive. No-one will be asked to join without having been given a complete and detailed outline of how AP will work first. Those who agree to the terms will join and those who feel that it is unacceptable will decide not to. It is as simple as that. Before anyone forms an opinion or makes a decision, please wait till after you have read the terms and conditions at the time of the membership drive. Thanks
posted on June 13, 2001 03:09:24 AM new
Hi, Sharon. Thank you for your statements. I appreciate your taking the time to address these issues civilly.
Unfortunately, it seems to fall to me to play devil's advocate. Please understand that I am not saying "Auctionpie will do such-and-such" but rather "What if Auctionpie does such-and-such?" I hope I have made that clear by refraining from jumping to conclusions in this thread, and asking for clarification first.
Having said that, I would suggest that the first thing that should be done is to strip out all the hype and hoopla from the facts that AP has provided. "We're not like other auction sites because we listen to our customers" is really nothing more than hype. Maybe clever marketing, but it still boils down to just talk. The only firm statement you have made is that a policy will be established which can not be changed without a vote.
By contrast, AP appears to be distancing itself as much as possible not only from any legal cooperative entity, but from cooperative philosophy as well. It seems clear that day-to-day operations will not be decided by one-member, one vote. You have not addressed the issue of whether Auctionpie will be run for profit, and if so, how those profits will be allocated.
Far be it from me to tell you how to run your site, but Auctionpie has been supported and will be funded by people to whom you promised a co-op. With a membership drive just days away, you say you are too busy to update the site which proclaims everywhere, "Let's Build A Co-op!" In light of your mission statement I can only wonder if you have provided adequate disclosure to the people who pledged to contribute financially to build a co-op.
You say that people were losing interest in a co-op and that the idea was slowing down your efforts. Well, excuse my bluntness, but it might also be observed that you and Canvid have the most to gain financially by this policy turn-around. It seems like the co-op was your big selling point before. Now you're saying the idea is a burden. You certainly have a right to make a profit if you desire. But if you are advertising a co-op, you had better deliver one.
Sharon, I have great respect for you, your ideas and hard work, and I can not recall a cross word between us. I have never attacked you personally and I am not doing so now. However your lack of disclosure regarding these matters, especially your financial policies, and your packaging of Auctionpie as a cooperative is very disturbing.
posted on June 13, 2001 09:46:01 AM new
Your questions and concerns, although I am unable to address them and provide specific answers, are understandable, Steve.
"By contrast, AP appears to be distancing itself as much as possible not only from any legal cooperative entity, but from cooperative philosophy as well. It seems clear that day-to-day operations will not be decided by one-member, one vote. You have not addressed the issue of whether Auctionpie will be run for profit, and if so, how those profits will be allocated."
As I said in the last two posts here, this will all be disclosed in a more professional manner than on a message board. The reason for this is so that we at AP can be sure that each and every interested party will receive the very same set of proposals. I know you know that these forums are no place to conduct business. We (AP) have always been open and available for discussion. For me to make the statements that you want me to make here would be a very shoddy thing to do. Proof of this is right here in black and white. Time and time again, it has been the intentions of yourself and others to shoot holes through our effort. I assure you, Steve, there is nothing that you have addressed here that won't be completely disclosed at the time of our membership drive. If you want to know anything in particular, you will just have to do what others are doing. Check our web site in the near future for updates and changes and continue to read the newsletter. I also will be available personally via email or the AP queue to answer any questions you may have to the best of my ability. This goes for any other interested party as well. As for your statement above, I do not know where it is from that you draw your conclusion, but you are welcome to it. For anyone else though, I have said it and will say it again, Auctionpie has not and will never change its policy to ultimately be governed and run by sellers. We stand behind the "One member, one vote" principle and will always do so. Please keep in mind that organizers will be held legally bound to that philosophy. I firmly believe in the principles of a true and legal co-op and will work my hardest to help incorporate those values within anything I do here at Auctionpie. While AP may not be able to tack that .coop behind it's name, it will operate in much the same manner as any site that can.
One last thing.....Steve, again, for a complete and comprehensive outline of our policies regarding profit allocating, please feel free to read our membership drive info when it comes out. If you have any further questions on this topic, you are welcome to address me at that time. Thanks
posted on June 13, 2001 10:11:52 AM new
Each shareholder/investor in eBay has one vote per share too. Indeed I can't think of any corporation in the U.S. which doesn't give voting rights to its common shareholders.
posted on June 17, 2001 03:21:59 AM new
What a shame! Canvid has done more to damage the coop movement than ebay could ever hope to do! Good job! and i'm suprised Sharon that you even agree to this.
If you wanted to start a for profit company That's fine but, you should have given the name auctionpie (we voted on) and the mailing list to someone who would keep the co-op going.
The mailing (newsletter) list are people who are interested in a co-op NOT your for profit business and the name auctionpie was voted on by the group we thought this was going to be the name of the co-op. Instead you have used this all as a spring board for you own personal gain! And that's a SHAME.
For the record MFC and Lothings joined our group for all of I believe two weeks. During that time they particpated in two live chats. Agreed on a name that I suggested (and paid for!) and then tried to organize a mutiny that failed. (emails and posts available)
Sometimes it's important to know who the messenger is of certain opinions.
The shame Mike is that I had to go through the crap that you and JC put me through, and Sharon. Sometimes you have to pay some dues before you run an organization. I have spent several months, monies, energy, and led the work of our site. I can understand your frustration as your and JC's efforts haven't exactly taken off.
I'm not perfect but please. If the co-op movement fails it certainly won't be because of me! There was no Online Sellers co-op movement until I started!! I'm just not putting up with the type of actions that you and JC pulled anymore.
posted on June 17, 2001 07:19:18 AM new
mfcwizzard - Please remember the basic rules of etiquette when posting - your comments in your last post are very close to the line.
[ edited by Twelvepole on Jun 12, 2001 08:27 AM ]