Will people be forced to upgrade to business accounts?
No. We do ask business users to upgrade to a business account, but because of the premier features we will be offering business accounts, we believe that businesses will choose to upgrade themselves.
Now, however, you have made the following notification on your site:
Our terms of use have stated since June that PayPal is free to consumers, but business users are required to operate using a Premier or Business Account.
What type of activity do we classify as "business use"? Using PayPal to collect payments for goods or services sold on a corporate website, personal homepage, or other forum counts as business use. Auction sellers — both individuals who make it a full time job and those who sell on a recurring, part-time basis — are also engaging in business use. If you have a Personal Account and you use it for business purposes, we ask that you comply with our terms of use and upgrade.
Unless I'm misreading this, it SEEMS as though you are now saying that ANYBODY who sells ANYTHING at auction is considered to be a "business" and that any business is REQUIRED to sign up for a business account.
So here's my simple question: How can you explain this discrepency? And please, don't tell me that there's a difference between being "forced" to do something and "required" to do it....
posted on September 13, 2000 01:08:26 PM new
Uh-huh, right PayPalDamon. And PayPal will never take any money from my checking account either, right?
See why I declined to verify my personal checking account?
I wasn't responding, I was asking a question. And I certainly didn't clarify anything. In fact, I was hoping YOU would clarify things.
Here, let me try again.
Back in June, you were asked if anybody would be forced to sign up for a business acount. You said no, but that you hoped that people would WANT to sign up because of the extra services provided. You DIDN'T say ANYTHING about REQUIRING people to sign up for a business account or that you were relying on their HONESTY to do so.
But now you are saying that ANYBODY who sells ANYTHING at an online auction is, by definition, a "business" and that these people are "REQUIRED" to sign up for a business account.
1 + 1 = 3?
Barry
---
The opinions expressed above are for comparison purposes only. Your mileage may vary....
posted on September 13, 2000 01:38:50 PM new
Damon, you would make a good politician.... You are very good at dancing around the very-directly-asked question from Barry.
Barry, keep asking it.
Why was it a choice in June, and now it's a requirement???
I've said it in other places, I'll say it again, because I don't think Damon has heard correctly: I SELL STUFF ON EBAY. I AM NOT A BUSINESS.
You can force my account to upgrade, and I will then promptly shut it down.
Not that I'm opposed to fees. I'm simply opposed to the way this situation was handled. PayPal said one thing, then did another. And the changes were thrust suddenly upon us. No warning, no emails, no announcements.
"My possessions are causing me suspicion." - Neil Finn
posted on September 13, 2000 01:40:25 PM new
Hi all,
I can tell that many of you are upset, I would just ask you to review the information below.
It's important to note that this message is simply to remind our user of our Terms of Use -- which require accounts using our service for business use to register for a Business or Premier account. These terms have been in effect since X.com began offering Business and Premier accounts in June. It is also important to note, that X.com's PayPal service REMAINS FREE for consumer and personal use.
What is business use and who should have a Business account? Here is the relevant text of the message:
"What type of activity do we classify as "business use"? Using PayPal to collect payments for goods or services sold on a corporate website, personal homepage, or other forum counts as business use. Auction sellers — both individuals who make it a full time job and those who sell on a recurring, part-time basis — are also engaging in business use. If you have a Personal Account and you use it for business purposes, we ask that you comply with our terms of use and upgrade."
Our service is still the best around, at the lowest possible prices. And there are even more great features coming next month:
Earned income on your X.com PayPal account
Debit cards
International
Shopping carts
To provide the service, over and above the credit card costs, we provide and incur costs with:
Providing Buyer and Seller Protection against fraudulent transactions
I appreciate the feedback that you all have thrown my way, and I would like to apologize for my inability to answer every post. I would like to add that there are many things to running the business that may not be readily apparent to the end users. We are still the most feature-rich service available -- and the least expensive -- in relation to the products and services we currently offer and will be offering.
Many thanks for your support and for your feedback.
posted on September 13, 2000 01:42:46 PM new
(go dude!)
But now you are saying that ANYBODY who sells ANYTHING at an online auction is, by definition, a "business" and that these people are "REQUIRED" to sign up for a business account.
-- and if they don't, they aren't being 'honest' with PP.
The PP semantics are that sellers have been told that they 'should' upgrade to a business account, not that they 'must'. -- and that if they 'should' and don't, then they aren't being 'honest' relative to the TOS.
The seller semantics are that PP has said that buyers 'should want to' upgrade to a business account, for the features. -- but that they 'don't have to' if they don't want to.
Sellers see PP changing 'should want to' to 'should or you're not honest with us'. That's as good as 'don't have to' to 'must' as far as sellers are concerned, and PP knows it, or should.
posted on September 13, 2000 01:44:48 PM new
Okay, I got a question.
I am mostly a Buyer right now and many times use the items I'm buying for resale in my business or as parts for eventual resale. Does that make me a business account?
******************
That's Flunky Gerbiltush to you!
posted on September 13, 2000 01:49:05 PM new
Well, PPD, here's where I'm at.
I finally bowed to the pressure to "verify" myself AGAIN, so you wouldn't tell all my buyers that I was a low life scum ball who was probably gonna rob them blind and they would have no recourse because I wasn't "verified". Nevermind that you had ALL my information. My credit card info. My street address verified by snail mail and confirmation code. My bank account info so the funds could be direct deposited into my account. I wasn't happy, but had to do it in order to keep my piddly little eBay stuff going.
I am a mom. I work two part time crappy jobs outside the home, take care of all the household "wife/mother" duties, and I sell a few things on eBay. I do not make a lot of money on eBay. Most of my items are small ticket - that 1.9% PLUS 25 cents eats away at any profit I may hope to make. If I sell something for $1.99 - you get 28 cents. If I bought it for a buck - you just walked away free and clear with 25% of my profit. That is crap. eBay takes their cut. I'm left with damn little for the time and effort I put into the auction, eh? I am not a business - I try to act as professional as I would expect a business to, but I am not a business. I do not make hundreds of dollars a month on my sales. I cannot give you part of the profits.
You said FREE. You said it would always be free. You lied. Admit it, and let's all move on.
Disgusting.
Sorry, Barry, for horning in on your thread. This is a crock, and after the last two weeks, I needed to get back to work. Now I have to re-do all my templates, because I can't afford to pay PayPal (who I believed when they said FREE) AND eBay. People are gonna have to live with it....money orders or cash is good. Gold coin works too.
I'd almost rather sign up with BillPoint than do this. At least BillPoint was pretty upfront with the fact they were gonna take $$$ right out of our hands. At this point, lack of direct response and honesty is my biggest problem here.
posted on September 13, 2000 01:50:32 PM new
PayPal says I should, but I don't wanna...
Next they'll say I must, but I say I won't...
They say I better, and I say you make me.
First you gotta find me.
And when you do, that sound you hear are tens of thousands of eBay part-timers closing their PayPal accounts.
"My possessions are causing me suspicion." - Neil Finn
posted on September 13, 2000 01:56:15 PM new
I want to make sure I understand:
We were told we did not have to upgrade to a business account.
But now we are all dishonest because we didn't upgrade to a business account. "We have been on an honesty program as it relates to business accounts for quite a bit now."
If it wasn't so ludicrous I would be insulted.
Barry,
You aren't going to get a direct answer. It is like talking to a cinder block.
posted on September 13, 2000 01:57:05 PM new
Whoever invented the Cut and Paste Function on our computers should be hung up by his toes today!
PPDamon - How about answering Barry's question?
Looks to me like a GIANT lie has just been thrown out there and instead of answering it/explaining it - you cut and paste PayPal retoric? Give us all a break! This was your big post you were going to make concerning this issue? Ooooh, Impressive.
Why not just come out and say "Hey, we lied! Tough Noogies, Folks!"
posted on September 13, 2000 01:57:36 PM new
Damon...I hope you're getting your resume together. However, I'd leave the part about PayPal off if I was you.
********************
That's Flunky Gerbiltush to you!
posted on September 13, 2000 01:58:04 PM new
Hi angellane,
Due to the sheer number of posts I cannot respond to individual posts at the moment. I am trying to get to that point, but I need to make sure that I touch all of the users first.
posted on September 13, 2000 02:00:17 PM new
Hellloooo!
I'll try to make this simple, PPD.
I do not want bells and whistles. I do not want any of these spiffy-diffy things you are offering to PayPal Business users. Why, you ask? I am not a business. Most of the funds I have in my PayPal acct go right back out to buy other things. When I'm lucky, I have enough I transfer it to my bank account.
I do not need earned income on my X.com PayPal account.
I do not need debit cards - I have a bank, thankyouverymuch.
I do not need International - for that matter, you been promising THAT for a long time, too.
I do not need Shopping carts - if I was a business, I'd get my own damn merchant account.
I do not need your 24/7 Customer Service(over 350 representatives answering in-bound calls/emails) - it's not ever worked for me in the past. I send a specific question, I get canned response. Ooooh - very efficent.
As for: Providing Buyer and Seller Protection against fraudulent transactions - I thought THAT was why we "verified" this last time. Or did I miss something.
It's baloney, Damon. You know it. I don't need all that stuff cuz I'm not a business. I'm just a thirty something mom trying to help make ends meet at home. But you say I'm a business because I sell a few trinkets on eBay.
posted on September 13, 2000 02:40:34 PM new
Well there it is, "We are on an honesty program as it relates to BUSINESS ACCOUNTS .." Says nothing about being on an HONESTY program as it relates to BUSINESS PRACTICES.
posted on September 13, 2000 02:48:18 PM new
I've been silent up until now, but I am furious.
You change the User Agreement on us, then you point to it as your justification for forcing us to sign up for the fee bearing business accounts you told us we were not going to be forced to upgrade to.
Many of us took you at your word. BIG MISTAKE!
Given 60 days notice, I could wean my buyers off the service, but what am I supposed to do now? I'll remove your damn logo from all my auctions, but it will take 7 days for my 100+ auctions to end, and since I've offered PayPal to my buyers, I cannot go back on my word.
So, you'll get $30 - $50 bucks from me, and then nothing.
This is the most damnable thing I've ever seen a business do. Pay us to become customers, use "Always Free" as a logo, pay us to refer buyers to you, get us good and hooked on your great service, then commit extortion.
Saying "personal accounts are always free" is disingenous, you knew damn well we were eBay auction sellers!
The worst part is accusing us of dishonesty for not upgrading to a service you told us was completely optional.
I am sick to my stomach that this could happen.
[ edited by chipguy on Sep 13, 2000 02:49 PM ]
posted on September 13, 2000 03:00:23 PM new
I second Maddienicks - these are things I DON'T need and shouldn't have to pay for...I do not need earned income on my X.com PayPal account.
"I do not need debit cards - I have a bank, thankyouverymuch.
I do not need International - for that matter, you been promising THAT for a long time, too.
I do not need Shopping carts - if I was a business, I'd get my own damn merchant account.
I do not need your 24/7 Customer Service(over 350 representatives answering in-bound calls/emails) - it's not ever worked for me in the past. I send a specific question, I get canned response. Ooooh - very efficent."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Sure Damon, I understand you can't answer direct questions now because you have to wait for the Head Nerd to develop some more catchy canned responses(spin doctoring) you can throw at all the disgruntled AW people. We all know you are just the messenger.
Has anyone been in contact with any news agencies yet? Headline - "PayPal bites the hands that feed it"
posted on September 13, 2000 03:07:30 PM new
magazine_guy-with all respect, and I said on another thread.
PayPal is free 'person to person' and that is how it started, BUT when PayPal started they did NOT have business accounts, now they do, now they can charge for them.
Its still cheaper than my merchant account.
How do you expect to get 'grandfathered' in? to what?
I don't work for PayPal, I can't understand why everyone is in an uproar about a Business account, btw no one is forcing you to upgrade to.
posted on September 13, 2000 03:09:38 PM new
G'Evening
Well here are the steps I have taken.
1)Removed all Paypal Promotion from Auctions I am listing today and my eBay Pages.
2)Will remove any mention of Paypal in all emails for all Auctions already listed with Paypal Promotion. I will instead state I no longer accept Payments from Paypal and unless someone kicks and screams will not.
3)Have already talked to 5 eBay Sellers I personally promoted and got to join Paypal to also quit.
4)Will talk to any and all eBay Sellers I know at the Local Auctions and that come to our Antique Shop and try to convince them to quit. (I know lots that listen to me about what is happening on the Internet and eBay)
5)Drain my Paypal account to less the 1.00 every day.
6)Close my Paypal Account in 1 Week.
I sold on eBay for 2+Years without accepting CC's, guess I will still survive as I start my 4th year.
posted on September 13, 2000 03:12:01 PM newchipguy It would seem to me that even though you offered it in your ads, you can move some of that PayPal traffic over to whatever other method you would prefer in your EOA with something like "I will happily accept your checks, cash, money orders, cashiers checks and NOW I can happily offer XXXXXXX.com for fast free payments with credit cards or online checks. Due to the new fee structure at PayPal, I would prefer that PayPal not be used as payment, but I can accept it for the time being. Be sure to check out XXXXXXX.com which is still an excellent value and easy to use!"
This is just off of the top of my head, but that may help to curb some of your customers away from PayPal and thus the fees.
posted on September 13, 2000 03:18:16 PM new
Hi magazine_guy,
I cannot respond to all of the threads at the moment because of the overall number of items. However, I would like to state that all information that I have presented, either now or in the past has been accurate and honest, based on the circumstances surrounding the issue and policy. If I have been wrong, as with the Ebay logo issue, I have apologized. The statements I provided earlier today are the official comments.
Please make no assumptions about my integrity as an individual or as a company employee.
posted on September 13, 2000 03:21:08 PM new
shellyherr,
You said
<<I don't work for PayPal, I can't understand why everyone is in an uproar about a Business account, btw no one is forcing you to upgrade to>>
to me, the paypal term
Auction sellers — both individuals who make it a full time job and those who sell on a recurring, part-time basis — are also engaging in business use. If you have a Personal Account and you use it for business purposes, we ask that you comply with our terms of use and upgrade.
means that all sellers are businesses, thus we are forced to upgrade.
posted on September 13, 2000 03:25:45 PM new
Shelly:
PayPal initially only had one type of account. That's the one they now call the personal account. They promoted this heavily to auction sellers, claiming "Always Safe, Always Free." They included auction functionality into this service. The advertised on auction sites. They partnered with auction-services. They established a presence on auction discussion boards. Why? Because they knew that their product was well suited to online auction sellers, who were in need of a cheap alternative that allowed them to accept credit cards.
Fair enough. So they push the "always free" product- they know most of their users are auction sellers. They say they make the money on the float (well, maybe- my credit union does that!), and folks took them at their word. Signed up under the agreement then in effect, which made no mention of business accounts. Fine so far.
June 13, they add a new type of account: the Business account. Gotta pay for that one. Auction sellers ask PayPal here on the auction boards, and are told: "No user will be forced to upgrade to Business accounts." That was consistent with email of June 13 to all users- No personal account holders will be forced to upgrade. Fair enough. Most felt that since they signed up when there was only one product, and it was sold to auction sellers, and it was sold as "Always Free" that they were reasonable to expect PayPal to keep it's word.
In the past 2 months, PayPal changes its TOS, which it is permitted to do. It now says that users who are doing business MUST upgrade to the Business account. That's a change over what the existing auction sellers were promised, and different than the original TOS. And starting yesterday, folks who log into their PayPal account are confronted with a screen that makes them either click "Upgrade to Business/Premium Account" or click "I'm NOT a Seller." (I may have the wording slightly off- but that's the essence of it).
So, yes, folks who were promised a free service are being forced to either: 1. Upgrade, 2. Lie, or 3. Cancel their service.
What I am suggesting, is that PayPal owes it to it's users to keep their promise. There should be another option: "Signed up for personal account before June 13, under assurances that I could use this for my auctions, for free, and wish to continue to do so." (Get THAT on a button!).
That's the fair thing. That's the right thing. That's what PayPal should do.
Otherwise, they are engaging in classic bait and switch.
S.
[ edited by magazine_guy on Sep 13, 2000 03:28 PM ]
