posted on September 13, 2000 07:10:06 PM new
Hi everyone,
As it is readily apparent that I cannot answer each post at the moment, this would be very beneficial. What do you think is fair or constitutes a business?
I have not lied and we are not forcing upgrades. Today's notification was restating our policy and also advising that enforcement could come down the road for BUSINESSES conducting ecommerce under a personal account.
posted on September 13, 2000 07:21:08 PM new
If you didn't intend for people to use Personal Accounts for online auctions, then why make auction tools available to Personal Account holders?
posted on September 13, 2000 07:23:24 PM new
I have followed all of these threads since last night. My conclusion? You and Paypal are full of SH*T. I just cancelled my account and I feel damn good about it.
posted on September 13, 2000 07:26:46 PM new
Why do you do this? This is the second time--that I *remember*--that you have come to AW and asked *us* to define something for *your* company. Wasn't it just a month ago that you started a thread asking us to suggest wording for the "verified" fiasco? And that was just a ruse to get everyone to vent away their ill feelings & stay with your service--nothing ever came of *any* of the suggestions.
You shouldn't have to come here & ask us--PayPal should have clear guidelines on the subject.
BTW, here is the sum total of *my* business dealings with PayPal, which I also posted on another thread. Read it and then tell me--do you *really* think I have any need for *any* of the bells & whistles on the business accounts? Do I sound like a big business to you? Medium? Heck, I barely rate in the "small" category, don't you think? Here goes:
I went over my records from the time I finally decided to accept PayPal payments in April to the present (roughly 6 months):
In that time, I had 28 payments sent to me using PayPal--which averages at less than 5 per month. And what munificent sum was the total of those 28 transactions? Why, the awe-inspiring, mind-boggling amount of...$290.67. In six months. Works out to something like $48.44 per month.
And this, in PayPal's mind, qualifies me for--no, no requires me to have--a *business* account?
edited because "come" isn't spelled "comere"
and agin to put a "b" where it belonged
[ edited by bunnicula on Sep 13, 2000 07:27 PM ]
[ edited by bunnicula on Sep 13, 2000 07:29 PM ]
posted on September 13, 2000 07:40:58 PM new
I'm sorry, but I don't give a rat's patootie what "constitutes a business". If you want to define anybody who sells anything anywhere for any price as a business and charge them fees as a result, go right ahead. It's your site. But please try to get it though your skull what we are upset about.
PayPal established itself solely on the basis of their promise that their services would be free FOR EVERYONE and FOREVER. When PayPal solicited business from eBay sellers they did NOT say that in the future there would be fees, or that there was ANY DISTINCTION WHATSOEVER between "personal" use and "business" use. Was that a lie or simply a promise that PayPal was unable to keep? Your call.
PayPal then announced a new level of "premium" services for business customers, which would NOT be free. And yes, buried DEEP within that announcement was a short sentence saying that "business users are required to operate using a Premier or Business Account". But when people asked whether this actually applied to them and whether they would be forced to upgrade, you told them "no one will be forced to upgrade to a Business/Premier account". Was that a lie, or are you simply ignorant as to the meanings of the words "require" and "force"? Again, your call.
The issue is not that this new requirement was added to the Terms of Use [although, to be honest, that was a pretty crappy thing to do after all the promises of free service had been made]. The issue is that you then told people that they would not be "forced" to upgrade INSTEAD of telling them that yes, they ARE considered businesses under the new terms and are therefore REQUIRED to upgrade.
You made your bed, Damon. And now you are being "required" to lie in it.
Barry
---
The opinions expressed above are for comparison purposes only. Your mileage may vary....
posted on September 13, 2000 07:46:09 PM new
PPD .. Are you revisiting any of the other threads you started? I feel like I'm chasing you around the board!!
Copy and paste from a thread where I copied and pasted from another .. and never got an answer to this or other questions.
"CLEAR DEFINITION OF A BUSINESS PLEASE??? I saw 30 items auctioned per month mentioned somewhere. So 29 items at $100 each is NOT a business but 50 items at $1 IS?? HUH??"
PS: PLEASE revisit YOUR More Info thread and read my (and others') questions! Thank you.
I have a memory like a steel trap .. unfortunately it's rusted shut!
posted on September 13, 2000 07:47:18 PM new
What would be fair would be for Paypal to do what it promised it would do when it first introduced business accounts:
(1) Force no one to upgrade, regardless of usage level.
(2) Restrict the upcoming new features (international, etc.) to business/premier accounts, and *invite* users to upgrade to obtain those premium services.
In other words, keep the promises you made to us just a few months ago.
IMO, PayPal is worth 1.9% of transaction amounts, particularly if these promised new services materialize. But I do not want a company that cannot keep its word handling my money.
posted on September 13, 2000 08:27:30 PM new
WHOA WHOA Damon
I have not lied and we are not forcing upgrades. Today's notification was restating our policy and also advising that enforcement could come down the road for BUSINESSES conducting ecommerce under a personal account
But PayPalPaul said in an earlier post here on Auctionwatch that NOBODY would be forced to upgrade. Boy if that's not a lie.....
posted on September 13, 2000 08:38:28 PM newWhat do you think is fair or constitutes a business?
I think it would be fair to "grandfather" in all the part time eBay sellers who took you at your word that your sevice would always be free. Even after the June unilateral change in the User Agreement, you sent us all emails telling us that no one would be forced to upgrade.
I think what should constitute a "business" for your purposes is anyone with a brick and morter business, or commerical web site, that uses PayPal as an alternative to their regular acceptabce of credit cards.
Many of us would not be accepting credit cards at all, without PayPal's "beaming money", $5.00 reward program, and constant assurances that you wold always be FREE. YOU got us in to this! When we registered, there was no personal or business category, just one account type, and you spent millions coming after us and signing us up. making PayPal an integral part of doing business for eBay sellers large and small. THEN you create a business category, and simultaneously email us all and tell us "never mind that, NO ONE WILL BE FORCED TO UPGRADE", so we continued to offer PayPal all summer long.
Now, you tell us we are being dishonest by not switching to the business account, for doing ANY level of selling on eBay, and threaten us with investigations and enforcement down the road.
"I have not lied and we are not forcing upgrades. Today's notification was restating our policy and also advising that enforcement could come down the road for BUSINESSES conducting ecommerce under a personal account.
Which policy is that? The one you reintrepreted today, or the one you emailed us last June that said "For businesses and groups already enjoying the use of a Personal Account, it's easy to upgrade to a Premier/Business Account.....Premier/Business accounts are also available to individuals who would like to take advantage of the premium features. However, no one will be forced to upgrade to a Business/Premier account. Personal Accounts will remain FREE for individual use!
Well, I AM an individual, an individual yyou hotly pursued to get your logo in all of my auctions. Now that my buyers have come to rely on the easy payment and fast shipping, you've decided to become my PARTNER, taking money directly out of my till, just like the GD Mafia! And if I don't go along with your extortion, I'm at a competetive disadvantage to all the other sellers who WILL pay your fees.
This fiasco will be taught in business schools for years to come. "How to create an entirely new e-commerce category by bribing small time sellers to use a ALWAYS FREE service, and once you've established nearly complete reliance on your service, change you User Agreement and jack up the fees.
Brilliant!
I'm listing and relisting tonight, and removing your logo as I go.
posted on September 13, 2000 08:47:34 PM new
I thought the "fees" were to begin Oct. 1. I received two small payments this evening and the "fees" were debited from the payments. Have I misunderstood?.... or another bit of misleading information? What is going on here???
posted on September 13, 2000 09:07:25 PM new
this week i have started removing you logos from my auctions. for 2 months i had been make eletronic payments to my bank. last week you site took out my bank account. the email respone i got was i had to sent a copy of my bank statement and drivers license. for what i gave you my bank account and visa card #. now why all the other stuff? i will go back and join the 80% who collect payment with checks and money orders and use yahoos free pay direct program. you guys change the rules as much as ebay
posted on September 13, 2000 10:14:49 PM new
"I have not lied."
No, you just misled us down to the alley where you can club us and steal our money, right after you said we get a free steak if we follow you.
"We are not forcing.." We are enFORCING. (???)
So you used a little lawyer speak in your terms of usage so you can add the "en", big deal.
The only reason I signed up with paypal was because it's free. I can't afford to accept CC with fees.
Also, let's consider the advertising word of mouth business we sellers bring to your business. An average online business spend $19 to bring in a new customer. You pay us sellers $5 to bring in a new customer. You save $14. Your business grew from nothing flat to a mega business in under a few months all due to word of mouth. If you lose me, you lose word of mouth, the logos in my listings, and my email notices recommending paypal.
If you want sellers to pay fees, generate value so people will pay the fees. So far paypal has nothing I wish to pay for. Most buyers still pay with a check or money order anyways, and I haven't seen any increase in business since using paypal.
posted on September 13, 2000 11:05:22 PM new
Hey PayPalDamon!
Be a man and admit that you were in error some months ago when you reassured us that "nobody will be forced to upgrade their accounts" when you knew full well that there were requirements already in place to do just that.
Also, stop trying to define what I do... Whether I'm a business or a hobby is up to me. That's the nature of on-line auctions. Some people might list ten things one week, take two weeks off, then list one item each week for two months, and then they might list 37 items in one day. That is most definitely NOT a business. If it was a business, it would most assuredly fail. Kinda like PayPal will assuredly fail if the powers-that-be continue to defecate on eBay sellers.
Ya know, those 2 million+ accounts that are just buyers aren't going to be using their accounts if they can't find any sellers accepting PayPal!!!
"My possessions are causing me suspicion." - Neil Finn
posted on September 14, 2000 02:01:56 AM newmsmas,
I believe the 25 cents TRANSACTION FEE begins October 1st. Upgraded accounts are ALREADY paying 1.9% for money they receive....beginning October 1st, they'll pay 1.9% PLUS 25 cents for each payment received.
posted on September 14, 2000 03:29:02 AM newBarry, EXCELLENT POST!!!!!!!!!!
Damon,
I don't know if you've been instructed not to SAY ANYTHING other than the speil you've posted over and over and over again, BUT....I suggest you keep quiet until X.com/PayPal formulates their EXACT POLICY DOWN TO THE MINUTEST DETAIL. You at PayPal CREATED this mess yourselves, and you're not going to dig your way out of it with CONTRADICTIONS.
WHAT contradictions, you ask?
1) FREE FOREVER specifically directed at online auction sellers and website merchants for accounts in which you AGGRESSIVELY ENCOURAGE placement of YOUR LOGOS on websites and auction listings by GIVING BONUSES for signing up new members through LINKS contained in your logos
...now becomes FEES FOREVER for anyone (a "business" or "individual" business) who
a) Ever sells anything... OR IS IT
b) Sells more than "one beanie a month"... OR IS IT
c) Sells more than "30 items a month" (30 on average, or never exceeding 30...and does the MONETARY VALUE of the transactions matter?)
2) "We'll make our money off the float"....now becomes "It is not possible for PayPal to subsidize these businesses and continue to provide this service for all." We don't know if this contradiction was PLANNED FROM THE BEGINNING or if your financial analysts flunked grade school, but IN EITHER CASE you need to apologize to us and say you made a miscalculation (even if it's another LIE).
3) "No one will be forced to upgrade to a Business/Premier account"...now becomes "enforcement could come down the road for BUSINESSES conducting ecommerce under a personal account." Is "no one" NOT included in "businesses"??????????
X.com/PayPal has been taking public relations lessons from EBAY, the LAST company you should be emulating.
Want some more advice (aside from closing your mouth to keep your foot out of it)???
* Hire someone with extensive online auction/website selling experience to ASK about policy changes BEFORE you make them.
* Crunch the numbers AGAIN and see if some COMPROMISE can be reached in terms of who has to pay and how much. If you can't afford to grandfather in all sellers who joined before you created the fee-based accounts, perhaps those who can't be ENTICED to upgrade could be required to leave money in their accounts for a designated period in order to AVOID paying fees????
* Formulate your EXACT POLICY and send emails to all your users letting them know where they stand. It's unbelievably BAD customer relations to stick "pop-up" warnings on your website.
* APOLOGIZE, APOLOGIZE, APOLOGIZE. It may go against the grain of whoever you have in charge there, but you need to eat humble pie now to calm the roaring crowds. Your credibility has sunk to the bottom of the ocean, and you can't expect people to give you their money if they don't TRUST you.
* Why are you charging 1.9% plus 25 cents transaction fee for payments received through electronic bank transfers??? I thought it only costs A PENNY for money to be transferred between accounts????????
I hope you're all ordering pizza in, camped out at your office 24/7 until this mess is resolved....because the news media will have another FIELD DAY with this.
Incidentally, I've been keeping a VERY LARGE SUM OF MONEY in my X.com account for months, even though you reduced the interest rate to 4% and I could get 8% elsewhere, because I wanted PayPal to REMAIN FREE and thought my X.com funds would help it to do so...but I guess I was wrong. LOL
posted on September 14, 2000 03:53:14 AM new
The only reason I signed up for paypal was it plainly stated You could send and recieve auction payments free! Now if I sell one item I am a bussiness! No way!! What I do is not a bussiness it is for fun but it does give me a little extra money! What are you planning on doing next start charging the buyers who send payment through paypal a fee? when I called paypal's 800 # I was told that it was still free and that they were just reminding people that there was other options like acceptin payment from other countrys , debt cards etc. not to try ans threaten them. You cannot have it both ways. You need to plainly state what is going on and stop giving us this run around.
posted on September 14, 2000 03:59:20 AM new
Oh, and another thing....
You said that "our upgrading of accounts was done on an honesty basis" meaning, I assume, that you were relying on the integrity of sellers to "admit" that they were "businesses" and sign up for the premium services as they were now "required" to do [even though you hadn't gotten around to implementing all the nifty features that were supposed to make the Business/Premium services so attractive yet].
Well, if this is truly the case, why the planet of HELL didn't you actually SAY something about this back in June when people were asking about it? You COULD have said "Yes, we consider you to be a business if you sell on eBay and, although we will not FORCE you to sign up for a business account you will be in violation of our new terms if you don't. We are relying on the honesty of those people who selling on eBay to sign up for a bsuiness account."
But NOOOOOOOOOO. Instead you just said [over and over and over again like a broken record] "no one will be forced to upgrade to a Business/Premier account". No mention of REQUIRING people to sign up. No mention of "honesty". Just "no one will be forced to upgrade to a Business/Premier account".
Sure, there would have been an uproar had you been forthright back then. But I bet a lot LESS of an uproar than you are seeing now.
Barry
---
The opinions expressed above are for comparison purposes only. Your mileage may vary....
posted on September 14, 2000 04:45:15 AM new
GRANEE
Thanks! You have a way of answering questions quickly and clearly. Have you thought about applying for a job at PayPal?
Oh... I'm sorry! That's like asking someone if they'd like a job on the Titanic.
PAYPALDAMON
Have you checked to see how many lifeboats there are?
posted on September 14, 2000 07:15:32 AM new
Granee said Damon: "....I suggest you keep quiet until X.com/PayPal formulates their EXACT POLICY DOWN TO THE MINUTEST DETAIL."
I agree, Damon. I would like a detailed reason for what transpired over the past two
days. I want the questions people have ask answered.
I am going on with my first fall auctions tonight WITHOUT PP or any third party payment. So far I haven't seen anything that will give me confidence in your company. I didn't use third party payments last Spring and all but a few items sold. Can do
again!!!
I don't think I have seen a bank ask its customers for advice before. "How many????"
I thought there would be an answer from the
top brass by now. Is there some kind of communication problem between X & PP?
LabRat4GMOS
[Not LabRat or TopLabRat here or anywhere else!]
[ edited by labrat4gmos on Sep 14, 2000 07:18 AM ]
posted on September 14, 2000 03:26:53 PM new
Damon, you are getting real good advice about keeping your mouth shut, for every time you open it your nose gets longer.
posted on September 14, 2000 06:39:35 PM new
Hi all:
I'm back from making rounds on other boards. There are clearly a lot of concerns and questions about PayPal's recent reminder message. I can’t answer all of them in one post, but I want to address some of your most important concerns.
We have always said that PayPal would be free for person-to-person payments. When people started using it for e-commerce, we evolved as a company, expanded our features, and in June created Business Accounts (for companies) and Premier Accounts (for individual entrepreneurs). We told our users that we wouldn't force people to upgrade, but that didn't mean it was OK for business users to violate our terms of use and conduct their commerce with a PayPal Personal Account. That's why we sent out an email in July that reminded business users of our policy.
While 250,000 of our users did understand what our terms of use required and decided to upgrade to or open a Premier or Business Account, a number of users either honestly weren't aware of our policy or else chose to ignore it. Since we assume that most people like to play by the rules and hence wouldn't expect PayPal to continue to subsidize their auctions with free credit card processing, customer service, and fraud protection, we sent the login page as a reminder to our active users. That's all it was, just a reminder of a policy that we've publicized before -- not a new one. It wasn’t meant for someone who occasionally sells personal items online; it was meant for those who are part-time or full-time sellers. We're sorry if the page seemed abrupt or ominous to some of you. It certainly wasn't intended to be. We were just trying to make sure that you all knew about our existing "business use" policy.
We also wanted to be straightforward and notify you that we're considering a new policy to enforce our terms of use. We hope we won’t have to, but if we do, we’ll strive to be fair and we'll be sure to announce the new policy through emails and content on our website at least two weeks before we implement it. Contrary to what has been reported on some threads, no policy has yet been determined; we have not decided on a specific transaction limit, or even whether this would be the best approach. We can say this: We don't intend to surprise anyone by automatically upgrading their account or shutting them down. We may have to limit costly functionality on Personal Accounts (like the ability to accept unlimited credit card payments), but everyone will have a choice, and as we’ve said all along, no one will be forced to upgrade.
Please understand that PayPal can’t subsidize large volumes of credit card transactions -- especially since we'll be giving a big part of the float back to our users starting next month in the form of income on funds left in your PayPal account. So, if you're selling goods to make a profit, we're asking you to play by the rules and upgrade to the account that is most applicable to you (either Premier or Business). We want to make online payments safe and easy for everyone, but we need your help to do this.
If you have thoughts or concerns on what our policy should be, please email us your suggestions (mailto:[email protected]). Since I can't possibly respond to every specific comment or question on the boards, please also use this email for any questions you may have. I will make sure that the whole team (including management) sees your comments, and we will try to answer every question as soon as possible.
Thanks again for your comments, and for caring about PayPal. We appreciate your feedback.
posted on September 14, 2000 06:59:00 PM new
Wow Damon...how original. Did the "script" writers at Ebay give you that answer or did you think it up all by you itty bitty self. Once again-full of sh*t. I consider myself to be quite intelligent and when I signed up it was offered as a free service-always free. You TARGETED us, the auction community. You knew quite well what we were using your service for. We did not come to you. Now, I have intelligently figured out your bait and switch and I have canceled my account. If you keep up the canned response then believe me you won't have too many customers left to give a canned response to. They will be teaching this in future Retailing 101 classes-the subject will be "How to completly Blow Your Business In One Day".
posted on September 14, 2000 07:44:38 PM newPayPalDamon: I notice you didn't answer my question. How does the piddly amount that has been paid to me through PayPal over the last six months qualify me for a business account?
Not that I really expect an answer--after all, you haven't answered anyone else. Further, you once again asked AW members to write policy/definition for your company...
posted on September 15, 2000 09:08:52 AM new
PPD- I think one of the issues is what constitutes a business and the implications of that.
I have been selling my excess household possessions on ebay using Paypal. But these are items for which I paid more than I am selling them for (with a couple exceptions which I report as capital gains to the IRS).
However, it if I sell enough for PayPal to require me to open a business account is that going to impact my IRS reporting? After all, if I'm a business to Paypal, will the IRS think I'm a business?
I think this is a big issue for the auction community and for Paypal. Your requirements are creating climate of change (which is always uncomfortable and why you are getting so much flak) but you need to think through the implications for your users.
posted on September 15, 2000 09:53:35 AM new
If I see one more cut and paste from PPD on every single thread I open up here...
My head is going to implode.
Be very very glad that I don't live anywhere near California. I'd be beating at the doors of your happy little office and spreading a little sunshine of my own. My happy a$$ would probably end up hauled away to jail for telling ya'll what I think, but I'd feel better.
