posted on September 16, 2000 11:05:44 PM new
YOU NEED TO READ THIS ABOUT PAYPAL - THEY SEIZED MY MONEY
PLEASE READ THIS, THIS MAY BE HAPPENING TO YOU NOW
Our Paypal account was "restricted" first time Friday 09/15 and our money seized. This money is our property and is being held by Paypal against our will, we cannot send it or withdraw it, but they can continue engrossing their vaults by receiving more money under our account while we are only allowed to play with their logos.
After the above initial surprise, we were acquainted with the following:
"What is a restricted account? As a user with a restricted account, you may not send, request or withdraw money. You may also not add funds electronically or close your account. The remaining PayPal features are available for use, including adding funds by personal check, receiving money, placing logos into your auction listings, and updating your account information. If you become eligible for a new account bonus while your account is restricted, it will be rewarded and then placed on hold until the restriction on your account is lifted. If you become eligible for a referral bonus, the status for that referral will continue to say "Pending," however once your restriction is lifted, it will be rewarded.
Why was my account restricted? Your account was restricted for administrative reasons.
What can I do to lift this restriction? To lift this restriction please contact the PayPal Account Review Department team in the box provided below."
Several email messages were sent, at least seven to every Paypal email available, requesting necessary grounds or documentation entitling Paypal to this abuse. Of course, none of our emails have a reply as of now.
We also called Paypal at least three times, and after wondering through several filters, we were told that they were "investigating".
Please read Paypal Terms of Use, especially article 6 about termination below quoted.
Article 6 - "Termination. Excessive disputes, charge backs, refunds, complaints, and claims from other customers, or other abuses of the Service are, without limitation, grounds for restricting your account and/or terminating your right to use the Service."
After careful review of the excessive wording that constitutes Paypal Terms of Use we found out that there is no terminology for the word "restricting", "restrict" or else similar describing the flagrant abuse of kidnapping other person's property.
Further, hidden somewhere among the excessive wording there is some that is worth the quote "as a result of a dispute or for any other reason, the parties agree to provide to any requesting party on a timely basis any and all necessary documentation to resolve any … dispute."
They haven't provided consistent evidence that we've incurred in any of the above, and they won't. Paypal has kidnapped our money without any legal basis.
We don't know what will finally happen to the money being trapped by Paypal, our only wish is that they don't use the argument of "terminating the account" to pocket our money.
We are living in the United States of year 2000, where freedom of speech prevails above everything. We are not worried about retaliation from Paypal because this is not defamation but the only truth. This is real and is happening now, they suddenly decided to seize our money without reasonable grounds, not even a simple line explaining why, how, or for how long.
Further, if anyone reading this can foresee that violating acts like this can be prevented to others in the future, and would like to sponsor any legal action is invited to email us.
We are now forced to request all bidders that paid through Paypal to request charge-backs from their credit card issuers, as technically we haven't received their payments. The potential for lawsuit against Paypal from seller and bidders is enormous. Let's consider we are now suffering damages and prejudices to our good standing as Internet sellers, not counting eventual negative feedbacks from unsatisfied customers that may lead to indefinite suspension from Internet sites carrying a decrease and eventual loss of projected sales. As of now we are not posting items, but dealing with this Paypal issue for the last two days.
We said above that we are living in a Great Nation, leader of the Free World. But, after this sad experience with Paypal we are inclined to remember the times when persons were grabbed from their homes without other explanation than "we are investigating", and their properties seized without grounds or warnings. These remind us of the times of Nazi Germany, Cuba of Castro, or several Third World dictatorial regimes, when a person was imprisoned a Friday night to spend the weekend in jail and his properties lost for good.
We were told by Paypal that our money was being held for "administrative reasons", who or what in this world gave them such an empowerment?
Paypal told us that they "were investigating". What are they investigating? What or whom are they investigating? They didn't have an answer, neither do we.
As of now we are waiting for an answer or a reason why they have kidnapped our money, meanwhile they keep collecting money into a "restricted" account. Gentlemen, this is a scam.
Maybe this is their way to force us to upgrade our account and pay them commissions? Who knows, we found an interesting article on eBay Discussion & Help Boards
We are not selling anything here, we just wanted the reader to know about this, that he/she may suddenly find his/her Paypal account restricted and money seized indefinitely.
Thanks for your time,
numisreal
If we were selling something, we wouldn't accept Paypal.
posted on September 16, 2000 11:22:24 PM new
Indefinitely? Per your message it's been one day so far. I'll be watching your thread with interest to see what happens.
posted on September 16, 2000 11:31:21 PM new
Thanks for your comment. The issue here is not defining the word indefinitely but making a lawful complaint about an illegal action by Paypal.com
posted on September 16, 2000 11:42:27 PM new
I'm just reading your post and trying to figure out why you stated indefinitely. I'm not asking for a definition, I'm pretty sure what it means. I understand why you're upset, and you have every right to be. I just think you may need to wait a bit for a response from PayPal as to their reason(s) for freezing your account before making statements that PayPal has committed an "illegal action" and that this is a "scam". I hope this situation gets resolved for you soon.
posted on September 17, 2000 01:48:38 AM new
It sounds like there might be a problem with a payment made to your account. While not being able to make withdrawal during this investigation would suck, there are worse alternatives. Another popular pay service has no problems with fraudulent credit cards, they simply take the money back, whether you are innocent or guilty.
posted on September 17, 2000 09:38:42 AM newuaru, although I'm betting you're right as to what the "administrative" issue is, it doesn't explain why, in the case of a questionable payment, Paypal finds it appropriate to freeze the intended recipient's entire account. As I understand regular merchant CC accounts, the only amount that is "restricted" or "frozen" or "held back" or [fill in your favorite can't-touch-this term here] is the amount of the payment at issue, NOT all the monies due the recipient.
If this is what's going on, it happened to another AWer a couple weeks back, to the tune of some $1200, and I believe took at least a week to rectify. Can't find the thread right now. Anybody remember which one it was?
The thread was from somebody having to do with LA but it has apparently expired as I can't find it either. It was also over on one of the boards at eBay.
I remember it well as I was all over Damon about it. I pointed out that their TOS gave them no right to freeze an entire account, and finally Damon said they would not be doing it anymore. Now, lo and behold, they changed their TOS to permit it.
Somebody needs to sue them; they are lower than whale poo.
posted on September 17, 2000 11:42:58 AM new
numisreal -
"Our Paypal account was "restricted" first time Friday 09/15 and our money seized."
NO ... it's still your money, you just can't get to it at the moment.
"""Why was my account restricted? Your account was restricted for administrative reasons. What can I do to lift this restriction? To lift this restriction please contact the PayPal Account Review Department team in the box provided below." "" "Several email messages were sent, at least seven to every Paypal email available , requesting necessary grounds or documentation entitling Paypal to this abuse. Of course, none of our emails have a reply as of now."
FYI. Blasting multiple emails to every address you can find for them DOES NOT HELP! Neither does posting a cut-and-past tirade to every chatboard you can find. Did you contact PP via the form they provided?
They are a business, and you are in the queue with other customers and they will get to you on Monday or you can call on Monday.
As for PP being "entitled" ....
http://www.paypal.x.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/gen/terms-outside seems to cover it pretty well. "X.com reserves the right to hold funds beyond the normal distribution periods for transactions it deems suspicious to ensure integrity of the funds."
"We also called Paypal at least three times, and after wondering through several filters, we were told that they were "investigating"."
OK ... you HAVE called them and they have told you they are investigating. It sounds like someone might have paid you with a suspect CC and at the moment they have only one mode of action - freeze the whole account from withdrawals. They are rewriting the software to allow partial freezes, but mucking around with a large financial database is seldom easy.
"Please read Paypal Terms of Use, especially article 6 about termination below quoted.
Article 6 - "Termination. Excessive disputes, charge backs, refunds, complaints, and claims from other customers, or other abuses of the Service are, without limitation, grounds for restricting your account and/or terminating your right to use the Service."
""After careful review of the excessive wording that constitutes Paypal Terms of Use we found out that there is no terminology for the word "restricting", "restrict" or else similar describing the flagrant abuse of kidnapping other person's property.
Further, hidden somewhere among the excessive wording there is some that is worth the quote "as a result of a dispute or for any other reason, the parties agree to provide to any requesting party on a timely basis any and all necessary documentation to resolve any … dispute."""
FYI - "timely" does not mean "instantaneously". It means within a reasonable time. PP is a business, and their staff works normal weekday hours ... Timely would be a couple of days.
"They haven't provided consistent evidence that we've incurred in any of the above, and they won't. Paypal has kidnapped our money without any legal basis. "
"We don't know what will finally happen to the money being trapped by Paypal, our only wish is that they don't use the argument of "terminating the account" to pocket our money. "
Geeez ... your account gets locked up for a couple of days, WEEKEND days at that, and you already have yourself firmly convinced that this is some plot against you.
"Further, if anyone reading this can foresee that violating acts like this can be prevented to others in the future, and would like to sponsor any legal action is invited to email us. " (snipped a bit)
"We are now forced to request all bidders that paid through Paypal to request charge-backs from their credit card issuers, as technically we haven't received their payments. The potential for lawsuit against Paypal from seller and bidders is enormous."
Any reputable lawyer would laugh you out of court. For starters, the TOS says you agree to use an arbitration service, not sue.
"Let's consider we are now suffering damages and prejudices to our good standing as Internet sellers, not counting eventual negative feedbacks from unsatisfied customers that may lead to indefinite suspension from Internet sites carrying a decrease and eventual loss of projected sales."
Any reoputable laywyer would point out the clause in the TOS that holds PP harmless (not liable for) a lergr number of things, including everything you just mentioned.
"These remind us of the times of Nazi Germany, Cuba of Castro, or several Third World dictatorial regimes, when a person was imprisoned a Friday night to spend the weekend in jail and his properties lost for good."
NAZIs MENTIONED, GODWIN'S LAW INVOKED, THREAD OVER
"We were told by Paypal that our money was being held for "administrative reasons", who or what in this world gave them such an empowerment?"
You did, when you signed up for the account, had you bothered to read the TOS you wouldn't be frothing at the mouth here. If they suspect any funky business, they can and will PROMPTLY freeze the account to prevent further funkiness.
""Paypal told us that they "were investigating". What are they investigating? What or whom are they investigating? They didn't have an answer, neither do we." "
Call them Monday, and ask to speak to SECURITY. If you can be polite and rational, they will probably tell you what is going on. For security reasons, the run of the mill customer service reps do not have access to all of your account information.
posted on September 17, 2000 01:23:14 PM newnumisreal do you have any idea why PayPal might have taken such an action?
Surely they have the right to do so when they suspect fraud, but we have the right to publicize all such events so that everyone can judge the facts for themselves.
As it is, we the audience don't have much to go on. If PayPal locks up 1 account in a million each month for two working days, we're likely to go along. Or if 3 of 4 accounts locked eventually turn out to be fraud, that would be fine too. But if they're locking up hundreds of accounts every day on the flimsiest of evidence, and 99% end up being the accounts of good guys, that's a whole 'nother story.
So what we'd like to understand is what PayPal saw that they interpreted as an indication of possible fraud.
posted on September 17, 2000 01:30:49 PM newabacaxi, I'm with you. And for the rest of you folks out there, this does NOT imply I'm her alter ID
Posting a manifesto guarantees a response: a good chunk of the population is going to roll its collective eyes and say "Uh...yup. You're the victim here, uh-huh. CIA's put radio receivers in your fillings too, I bet."
How much easier (not to mention much more elegant) than to post just the facts? If you're truly in the right, they'll speak for themselves...at least to anyone who's not got a vested interest in the facts being other than what they are.
Not only do you make your would-be tormentors look like fools; if there's anybody who can actually help, they don't have to sift through your politicking to find out what the problem really is.
That said, and with the caveat that my opinions here are not specific to the situation of the party who started this thread (since we don't know exactly what's going on there), I divert with you on one point: I don't give a good goddamn whether they've got 50 people "investigating" the matter. "They" should have a reason for me right at hand as to why the account's been frozen. It's being frozen for "investigation"? You're punishing me before you know if anything's wrong? Or you can't tell me because what you're "investigating" is top secret? I don't think so. How about "because we think one of the payments made to your account was with a stolen card"? "Because we're getting some weird messages regarding YOUR card"? Something, anything. They must have a clue....on second thought, given Paypal's history of making up policy as it goes along, that's hoping for too much.
I also couldn't care less whether it's "frozen" on a weekend or from 11PM Thursday to 2AM Friday. Unless they can tell me WHY they're freezing it, that money is mine to use, whether it's during banker's hours or after the bars close.
Finally, unless ALL the funds in the account are in question, there's no good reason Paypal has to freeze the entire account. As a matter of fact, through its "channel," Damon, after the last fiasco it said it wouldn't. But it is, apparently because (without notice, and contrary to its promises), it changed its TOS.
Why am I not surprised?
[ edited by HartCottageQuilts on Sep 17, 2000 01:32 PM ]
posted on September 17, 2000 03:44:37 PM new
Remember 3 weeks ago this happend to me? Because I lived in an area where they had to verify accounts.. DC. That was the only reason.
Anyway they were so stupid they sent me my money anyway. The account is still restricted.. I changed my Email address -Primary -so no mor money can go in. I dropped paypal, offered free shipping, raised oprices and have had awesome sales ever since. Get ready for more of this... and drop PayPal like a hot potato.
posted on September 17, 2000 05:32:10 PM new
DAMON: WOULDN'T YOU MIND EXPLAINING HERE IN PUBLIC WHY PAYPAL SEIZED MY MONEY, AND WHAT GAVE PAYPAL SUCH A RIGHT?
AS OF NOW, NOBODY FROM PAYPAL HAS TAKEN A MINUTE TO TELL ME "YOUR ACCOUNT IS RESTRICTED SPECIFICALLY FOR THIS OR THAT"
DON'T KNOW HOW THIS WOULD END UP. I SURE KNOW THAT I'LL TAKE THIS TO THE END, NO MATTER IF BY ARBITRATION, COURT, OR MEDIA. OR MAYBE HEADING TO THE FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION BUREAU WOULD BE ENOUGH.
MY MONEY IN MY POCKET, NOT IN PAYPAL'S FREEZER WITHOUT ANY RIGHT OR REASON. THIS IS ALL I WANT, AFTER THIS - GOOD BYE PAYPAL FOR GOOD.
I DON'T WANT ANOTHER WEEKEND WITHOUT WORKING AND ARGUING ALL AROUND FOR MY MONEY.
posted on September 17, 2000 05:51:08 PM new
numisreal -
You say "I DON'T WANT ANOTHER WEEKEND WITHOUT WORKING AND ARGUING ALL AROUND FOR MY MONEY."
Well, it was YOUR choice to post on every bloody chat board you could find, and YOUR choice to waste the weekend ranting and raving all over the Internet ... numerous answers to your posts said "chill and wait until Monday when it can probably be straightened out". But you chose to rant and fret and waste energy that could have beenspent listing things and communicating with your buyers about straightening up the mixup.
posted on September 17, 2000 05:58:14 PM new
OK pineapple, I guess you should also be listing things to make money instead of worrying about my claims, unless of course you have an interest in defending Paypal's postiion in this forum.
posted on September 17, 2000 07:00:45 PM new
sg52:
They might have such a right? maybe? That's not the issue here.
The issue is that they trapped my money for an "administrative reason" on a weekend that who knows for how long it will be? Is that an explanation to you? well, not for me.
Your percentage ratings might be good for you, cause is not your money we are talking here.
And what if this is the tip of the iceberg and they end up freezing everybody's money?
posted on September 18, 2000 04:17:24 AM new
numisreal -
I have no vested interest in defending PayPal, and Damon will testify that I regularly post things that are HIGHLY CRITICAL of Paypal. But when someone has gone over the top with posts like this, I try to get them down off their perch.
I know enough about security systems in banking software to know that the CS Reps can only look at your info and say "yup, it's frozen". They do not have the clearance level that allows them to look at WHY the account is frozen. They certainly do not have the authority to unfreeze something that was frozen. You have to call them on Monday morning and ask for the MANAGER of the accounts department. That person might have to transfer you to to the security department or to an even higher manager. But don't panic and don't start flinging wild accusations and legal threats. They seldom work.
In a security investigation, about all you can get from anyone in the early stages is "we're investigating". That's because the people doing the investigating are not the ones answering the phones.
posted on September 18, 2000 11:13:35 AM newThis is outrageous, don't you think so?
I don't know, because I don't know the facts as yet. One cannot say, a priori, that it is outrageous to freeze an account for 1-2 business days to investigate potential fraud. It depends on what criteria PayPal is using to indicate such investigations.
I'll agree with you, PayPal has engaged in some outrageous freezing of accounts in cases where we did come to know the facts, and I'll accept that you don't know the facts either, which is why we're not being informed.
It's Monday, I'd sure say that PayPal owes some response today, and I join the rest of your audience in eagerly watching to see what they say.
posted on September 20, 2000 04:25:22 PM new
toomanycomics -
Within two days of creating my PP account, I managed to get it FROZEN. (screwed up password three times in a row and the security gate slammed shut).
I wonder if that is what numisreal did, and blamed on PayPal.
posted on September 24, 2000 07:27:54 PM new
I met the same situation as numisreal. My account was "restricted" on Friday 09/22 for administrative reasons. I also sent several emails to ask for detail reason. What I got is my account has "usually activities" and don't know when they will start to review my account. Really bad customer services.
[ edited by gourmand on Sep 24, 2000 10:03 PM ]
posted on September 28, 2000 09:19:28 PM new
THANK YOU DAMON !!
I WANT ALL TO KNOW THAT DAMON HAS HELPED ME FIX MY PROBLEM!!
THE PROBLEM WAS THAT FOR SOME REASON, I HAD LISTED TWO BANK NUMBERS. ONE DID NOT INCLUDE THE LAST TWO DIGITS OF MY BANK ACCOUNT NUMBER. I DON'T RECALL ENTERING MY BANK ACCOUNT NUMBERS TWICE, BUT WHEN I WAS A NEWBIE I MUST HAVE GOTTEN NERVIOUS. SOME WHERE ALONG THE LINE, I MUST HAVE SWITCHED THE PRIMARY NUMBER FROM THE RIGHT ONE, TO THE INCORRECT ONE.
THE PROBLEM WAS NOT PAYPALS FAULT, IT WAS MY VERY OWN!!
I AM VERY SORRY PAYPAL!
DAMON RESPONDED VERY VERY QUICKLY WITH VERY VALUABLE INFORMATION! HE WAS EXTREMELY PLEASANT.
I WILL CONTINUE TO BE A PAYPAL SUPPORTER.
FROM MY DIRECT DEALINGS WITH DAMON, IT IS MY ASSUMPTION THAT HE IS NOT THE BAD GUY IN THE MYST OF ALL THE PAYPAL CONFUSION AND FRUSTRATION!
BUT THAT IS JUST MY OPINION. I KNOW MANY WILL NOT AGREE AND I DO UNDERSTAND!
THANK YOU
[ edited by featherwings on Sep 30, 2000 01:08 AM ]
posted on September 28, 2000 11:46:42 PM new
I just asked to withdraw half of the paltry amount I still have with PayPal with no problem at all. Of course, it could be that said paltry amount causes them no trouble to refund, or perhaps it is because I asked for a check & not a deposit into my bank account (something I have avoided all along with PayPal). Still, I would check with them to see if there is a glitch with your account. Or you might try again--perhaps you asked for your withdrawal during today's "upgrade" and their computer just couldn't handle two things at once...
I understand why you're upset, and you have every right to be. I just think you may need to wait a bit for a response from PayPal as to their reason(s) for freezing your account before making statements that PayPal has committed an "illegal action" and that this is a "scam". I hope this situation gets resolved for you soon.