posted on September 20, 2000 03:20:32 PM new
Hi Damon,
I have a "hypothetical" for you. It may or may not be a concern of mine in the near future. Here goes:
I am a verified paypal user/seller. I have shipped an item to a buyer, who claims to never recieve it. I have no "proof of mailing" other than a postal receipt. The buyer has no proof that the item was not recieved.
Since I am verified, and their purchase is "insured" by paypal--would paypal debit the amount from my account and refund the buyer???
This isn't happening--yet--but I just got one of those emails from a buyer that has me concerned.
posted on September 20, 2000 05:01:20 PM new
HI missmadi,
Having a postal receipt only puts you at a distinct disadvantage and you could wind up losing the appeal. I would recommend using delivery confirmation or another method.
The appeals team investigates these items based off of information the buyers and sellers provide. No money would be taken from a PayPal account without notification or explanation.
posted on September 20, 2000 05:25:42 PM new
So paypaldamon would you expect this to be interpreted that if seller does have a delivery confirmation, that buyer's claim of non-delivery would be denied? Buyer loses?
posted on September 20, 2000 06:55:48 PM new
Gee, I certainly hope the dishonest buyers out there aren't reading this. If this really is Paypal's policy, it is an open invitation to anyone who wants to just steal something to do so.
posted on September 21, 2000 07:48:32 AM new
This is scary! I have a few hundred transactions that have successfully made it to buyers, I would think proving my honesty.
I have a postal receipt, showing I shipped something. I've worked very hard to reduce shipping costs, because it is attractive to buyers.
Now, a buyer with a (1) feedback, can come along and say an item wasn't received and I'm the one at a distinct disadvantage??!!
Does this mean that I should edit my EOAs and state that "I would be happy to accept paypal payments, but you will have to pay additional shipping charges if you chose to pay by this method."
Also, as far as I know, Delivery Confirmation is not available on first class shipments. Anyone know different??
posted on September 21, 2000 08:05:32 AM new"Gee, I certainly hope the dishonest buyers out there aren't reading this. If this really is Paypal's policy, it is an open invitation to anyone who wants to just steal something to do so."
Do you know of any way to accept credit cards where the same situation would be any different? If you had a merchant account you'd face the same senario.
Would an insurance receipt be enough proof of shipment?
"The appeals team investigates these items based off of information the buyers and sellers provide"
What information can the buyer provide, I can provide the postage receipt and the insurnace receipt. I require MY customers to file an insurance claim with the USPS. Will Paypal interfere with MY business procedures, or will they stand behind me, their paying customer, and tell MY customer that they are rquired to follow MY procedures. I am upgraded by the way. With all that has happend lately I just want to know the fact so that I may change MY TOS accordingly.
[ edited by antiquequest on Sep 21, 2000 08:47 AM ]
[ edited by antiquequest on Sep 21, 2000 08:48 AM ]
posted on September 21, 2000 09:00:47 AM new
I don't work for PP. I just want to address some of the issues from my viewpoint.
If you accepted credit cards directly, the problem would be identical. Any buyer can make a charge back for any reason. There is no reason why you should expect PP to do any more for you. However, the fact is that they do provide more safety. Here's why:
The buyer would have to make an actual charge back. This takes some time. It is possible that the item may show up. If the buyer is a real crook, he may have done this before. The CC company might have the record of his previous CB's and deny it. Even assuming this is the first, many CC companies do not allow you to use third-party payment services such as PP. Their TOS states that if you do, you can NOT CB - period. So first, the buyer has to wait for his CC bank to make a determination.
Suppose his bank allows the CB. As a verified seller, you appeal to PP's protection. Assuming they dont accept your postal receipt, the most they can do is take it out of your PP account (not your bank account). If this really bothers you, close your PP account. Otherwise, you can chalk it up to the cost of doing business or a lesson learned and in the future, spend the extra 35 to 60 cents for delivery confirmation. You can use DC on priority mail or first class mail over 12 ounces.
In the year that I accepted CC directly, I had three CB attempts, all of which failed. Each one taught me something about protecting myself in the future. In the year or so that I have been accepting PP, I have had no CB attempts. I still always use DC unless the customer specifically refuses, in which case they agree to assume all risk for lost packages. I have not had a single package get lost yet
posted on September 21, 2000 09:26:21 AM newEven assuming this is the first, many CC companies do not allow you to use third-party payment services such as PP. Their TOS states that if you do, you can NOT CB - period
yisgood this doesn't add up.
Federal law guarantees the rights of cardholders in most cases under discussion. Credit card companies can provide cardholders with more protection, but not less.
posted on September 21, 2000 09:29:44 AM new
>>Federal law guarantees the rights of cardholders in most cases under discussion. Credit card companies can provide cardholders with more protection, but not less. <<
Federal law grants the cardholder rights when they use the card to buy directly from a merchant. If you use your CC to buy a money order and then use that money order to pay a crook, you can NOT charge back the transaction. You can NOT charge back Paydirect, which uses CC. Some CC companies state in their TOS that you can not use third party payment services at all, or if you use them, it is completely at your risk.
posted on September 21, 2000 10:10:34 AM new
>>First class mail over 12 ounces is priority mail.<<
Not exactly. First class is charged by the ounce. Priority mail rates start at 2 lbs and get billed by the pound (2 lbs 2 oz = 3 lb rate). Priority usually takes two days even cross country. First class can take a week. There is a rate difference but it's usually so small (as little as a nickel) that you might as well go priority. DC for first class is 60 cents and for priority it's 35 cents, so with DC, priority is usually cheaper than first class.
posted on September 21, 2000 11:08:45 AM new
13 oz. is $2.97 First Class
Anything OVER 13 oz. is PRIORITY!
You CANNOT put Delivery Conformation on 1st class mail. It is $.60 for Delivery Conformation on PARCEL POST.
Damon,
Is insuring the item as good or better for proof of sending?
edited for packer by packer!!
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Having a BAD hair Day! ...
[ edited by packer on Sep 21, 2000 11:12 AM ]
posted on September 21, 2000 11:18:01 AM new
Only items INSURNED for $50.00 and over can be tracked down.
Items insured for LESS then $50.00 cannot be tracked as there is no number for those insured. Just a Stamp on the package that says "INSURED" sender gets a receipt, still there are no numbers.
So Damon are you saying that anything such as insurance(under $50.00 no tracking)is not going to be good enough?
edited for packer by packer!!
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Having a BAD hair Day! ...
posted on September 21, 2000 11:19:10 AM new
packer: You are correct. I was confusing parcel post and first class. Anyway, if you
go to this site for postal rates
http://postcalc.usps.gov/zipwt.asp?LP=package&BL=off&OV=off
Choose two zip codes. Enter in packages of amounts such as 3 lbs 2 oz and hit enter. You will get different amounts for parcel post and priority. But what is amazing is that the amounts are usually off by a nickel. However priority will take 2 days and pp will take 4-5. Add in the 35 cent DC vs 60 cent for pp and priority is cheaper. I send most of my stuff (certainly anything valuable) priority with DC. It never fails to get there on the third day cross country. I have had no loses and no complaints.
posted on September 21, 2000 11:27:19 AM new
I ship jewelry in a box which weighs 4oz = .99 to ship. I ship 1st class, so I can't add delivery confirmation.
I can insure (for .85), but value is under $50, so it is not trackable online.
Besides shipping priority with CD, for $3.55, can someone give me any other ideas that will make both paypal and my customers happy??
posted on September 21, 2000 11:27:27 AM new
I've been PMR for our little Post Office since February. I've learned alot and am still learning.
However....this makes me very unhappy that my insured items under $50.00 is not covered by paypals insurance. I have the receipt proving I paid for it and sent it. I know if the package gets lost in the mail the PO will make good on it as long as I have my receipt.
What is paypals problem that they can't make good on the claim as well.
Actually is a moot point.....because if the PO pays, paypal shouldn't have to. Right? or am I missing something?
edited for packer by packer!!
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Having a BAD hair Day! ...
posted on September 21, 2000 11:32:25 AM new
if you're worried, spend the extra 85 cents and insure it for $100. That way you can track it. Anyway, why is it pp's problem if the PO loses it? PP is providing you a free (or almost free) service. Your only worry is if the PO loses it, so decide if you want insurance or if the customer claims he never got it. In about a year of using PP and many years of mail order sales, I have had only three charge back attempts when I accepted direct CC and all failed. I had no CB attempts with PP and no packages lost, even those sent for 77 cents with no confirmation or insurance.
posted on September 21, 2000 11:34:55 AM new
missmadi: You started this thread with a question about something you sold. So how you pay for items is immaterial, it is how your buyer paid for the item.
posted on September 21, 2000 11:35:11 AM new
Just want to add one more thing to this conversation.
Delivery Conformation is not that reliable YET. Many postal workers aren't use to scanning those numbers either on acceptance or delivery. AND if it is not scanned on acceptance, scanning on delivery does no good.
Our regional post office tracks that stuff and its alarming at how many pieces DO NOT get scanned.
edited for packer by packer!!
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Having a BAD hair Day! ...
posted on September 21, 2000 11:45:28 AM new
I can't afford to spend the time going to the post office to request and pay for confirmations. I work a regular job during the hours that the post office is open - I have to take time off to go - so I ship by dropping things off in the mail box.
This kind of time and nickle and dime costs spent on low cost items is prohibitive. At this rate, no item will be auctioned under 50 dollars on ebay.
I've never lost an item I sent yet, but I have had something I bought not show up. Looking at the good feedback, I split the difference with the seller and left it at that.
posted on September 21, 2000 11:49:08 AM new
kateartist: I still dont see what the fuss is about. Paypal is not forcing you to change a thing. It's just that in the event you ship something and the other party does a charge back and you are asked to provide proof, DC or insurance would be required. I think this would be a very rare circumstance, as you pointed out, most of the time, buyer and seller work it out themselves. And for small items, it doesnt pay to CB because credit card companies dont like accounts with a lot of CB and if you abuse it, they might not help you when a real problem comes up. So lighten up and just keep on doing things as you have.
posted on September 21, 2000 11:50:06 AM newyisgood- my point being: if other buyers are also paying with funds they have in their paypal acct., not through a cc, then the credit card charge back issue is mute.
I'm sure I'm not the only person who uses my paypal acct. for purchases without making any charges to my cc.
