posted on February 10, 2001 08:55:22 PM new
If you are a seller using ProPay's services, you might be interested in my experience described below.
I was using ProPay to process the credit card transactions on my website. I did not encounter any problems until I received a notice from the security department at ProPay in January. The notice explained that a customer of mine had charged back his credit card stating I had not been authorized to charge his card. This order was processed in November. ProPay explained that if I would like to dispute the chargeback, I simply needed to fax or mail any documentation such as order form, invoice, shipping receipts, etc. to their Accounting Dept. I did so immediately. I faxed a copy of the original email order form, a copy of the invoice, my shipping receipt, the United Parcel Service tracking record, and the United Parcel Service record of receipt showing the name of the person who signed for the package. This was all I had available and I believe it should have been more than enough to prove I was authorized to charge his account. I never received any notification from them that these documents were even received (although the fax did show successful). Regardless of my efforts, my account with ProPay is still default by $133.00 because I refuse to repay them for products that I shipped and this man did receive. If they want their money, they can get it from him.
My point here is that ProPay is no more safe or secure for sellers than any other online card processing company such as CCNOW, CCSLIDE, or PayPal. I have yet to see a credit card company that can guarantee that sellers are just as protected as buyers. I've since closed my website because the only way I could see to protect myself from dishonest buyers that don't want to pay for products they've received over the internet, would be to request a signature prior to shipment of their order. Even then, who knows?
While CCSLIDE is a joke, CCNOW doesn't allow a seller to have control over their refund policy and also does chargebacks regardless of the fact that the buyer isn't required to return the items, and PayPal uses sneaky tactics to freeze funds in accounts (although I've only heard of this and have not had it happen), I was relieved to find ProPay. Chalk another one up to experience! I've learned that a credit card company that works in the sellers interest as well as the buyers just doesn't exist.
[ edited by copzsweetheart on Feb 11, 2001 12:43 AM ]
posted on February 11, 2001 06:26:20 AM new
How do you know that the guy, whose credit card was charged, was actually the guy that received the merchandise?
posted on February 11, 2001 12:35:25 PM new
That's a good question RatCat. It is ProPay's responsibility to verify the cardholder's information matches the credit card billing address by using the AVS system. If the merchandise is shipped to the billing address and UPS shows proof of delivery to that address, I can only presume the merchandise was received by the cardholder. The only other alternative I can imagine is that it may be possible that someone in his home used his card without authorization. If it were his spouse, he would still be responsible and the products should have been returned. In the case of a roommate, it would seem difficult to me for the roommate to be able to receive a package in the cardholder's name, without his knowledge. While I can't discount the possibility of fraud, it seems pretty clear to me that either the cardholder or someone at his address received this merchandise. That is, if ProPay did in fact process the card correctly and checked the credit card billing address.
posted on February 15, 2001 04:36:34 PM new
Hello copzsweetheart, and others.
As ProPay's customer service manager I thought it would be prudent to respond to this post and address some of the concerns you mentioned. Chargebacks are no laughing matter, but I do feel there may be some confusion in some areas regarding buyer/seller protection that might shed some light on this type of situation.
It would probably be easiest to address each of your concerns by number, so here's an attempt to do that:
1. Your proof of the sale. The documents you mentioned in your post are exactly the type of materials necessary to rebut a chargeback, so you sent us exactly what you should have. A shipping receipt, any email correspondence from the seller saying they wanted to buy the item, an invoice--these are all terrific documents to send to defend charging a credit card.
2. ProPay notification of document receipt. Did you contact us to make sure we received the documents? When we receive these types of important documents, we always respond to the sender. If you did not receive a reply, it may have been due to the documents not getting to the proper destination.
3. Handling of chargebacks/protecting the seller as well as the buyer. ProPay prides itself as the safest payment processor on the Internet. As such, we are dedicated to protecting both the buyer and seller in a transaction as much as possible. However, when you charge someone's credit card, there are some important keys to keep in mind. First among these keys is the realization of the role that ProPay plays in the process. ProPay is the transaction processor. We are not the issuing bank, nor do we have control over the buyer's credit card. When the card is charged, the governing body over the transaction is the buyer's issuing bank (the bank that issued the credit card to them). It is the bank's choice whether the funds are sent, held, refused, etc. Any credit card holder has the right to issue a Chargeback against a purchase, for certain reasons (i.e. no receipt of product, broken product, product shipped does not match what they received, no permission given to charge card, etc.). ProPay does not have the ability, by federal law, to take the chargeback right away from the buyer. Thus, from one standpoint, there is ALWAYS a certain level of risk associated with accepting credit cards as payment, no matter what service you use.
However, with all of that said, there ARE some tools you may use as a seller that will help you rebut a chargeback if the buyer is trying to be dishonest. One of these tools is the AVS code associated with each purchase. You mentioned in your post, "It is ProPay's responsibility to verify the cardholder's information matches the credit card billing address by using the AVS system." ProPay does indeed run the card information through AVS (Address Verification System) as a tool for you, the seller. The AVS code is given to you in an email notification after the card is processed. It then becomes your responsibility, as the seller, to judge whether or not to ship the product. If the AVS code comes back negative, you should retain the product and contact the buyer for further verification. If the AVS code comes back positive, you can feel good about sending the product to that address. Doing this protects the seller in case of a dispute. When you provide documentation showing that you sent to the billing address, we dispute it with the issuing bank on your behalf. In many cases we've won the dispute, and the cardholder's chargeback is reversed by the issuing bank.
Other tools for protection include shipping receipts, invoices, email correspondence from the buyer saying they want to purchase the item, and so on. These proofs of the buyer's purchase are sent to the issuing bank. It is then the bank's decision whether or not to reverse the chargeback on your behalf. If your documents are accurate, there is no reason for the issuing bank to ignore them. ProPay works with the issuing banks to help protect the seller in chargeback situations.
In any case, keeping good records of the purchase and watching the AVS code that ProPay sends your way are a good defense against buyers who are trying to be dishonest. Also, educating your buyers about what they will see on their credit card statement tends to help a bit too. For example, if a buyer is not expecting to see your email address (instead of your personal name or company name) on their credit card, they may jerk their knee and issue a chargeback simply due to the surprise. Being careful to educate the buyers on what they can expect helps reduce this possibility.
In conclusion, I must say that it is disheartening to hear about what happened. ProPay has a strong record so far with regard to representing sellers dealing with chargebacks, and we do our best to protect both parties within the established credit card processing procedures. In your case, I hope this was not simply a matter of never receiving the documents you sent...?
I would be interested to receive your email address or name so I can personally research this incident and discover what happened.
If anyone has further questions regarding this topic, I would be happy to address them personally. Please feel free to email me at [email protected].
posted on February 24, 2001 07:32:48 PM new
I am of mixed feelings regarding ProPay. On one hand, I love having a ProPay account. I have had no problems using it, withdrawing funds and so on.
My experience with ProPay customer service has been very inconsistent, though.
This is an actual message sent to my mother in Oct after she tried to open an account and had problems.
---------------------
Angie, please explain to people like this that PayPal is easier to get into
because they take less precaution against fraud.... then go on with the
typical response, send her the form, etc. etc...
Hello [deleted],
First of all, Paypal takes fewer precautions to prevent fraud, which is why
it is probably easier to set up an account with Paypal. Because you are
getting the power to charge credit cards, we must be that much more cautious
about who we allow to use the service. This ability requires a lot of
responsibility...
posted on February 24, 2001 10:03:06 PM newAs such, we are dedicated to protecting both the buyer and seller in a transaction as much as possible.
Which is to say, the seller is utterly unprotected in cases like the one cited.
ProPayMike, you see how the poster of this thread was confused. No protection is described as the italicized citation above.
"signed, imprinted charge slip". Sound familiar? Without it, no protection. All the documentation, all the proof of delivery, all the AVS in the world ain't gonna help.
posted on February 26, 2001 08:48:51 AM new
Hello again!
Replies to both "loggia" and "sg52":
My original offer to handle individual concerns via private email still stands, so we don't turn AuctionWatch's forum into a ProPay support service (hehehe), but on to both of your concerns:
*****
loggia--
It looks like that email is quite old--Angie hasn't been working with us for a good while. It also appears that Angie forgot to delete our assistant manager's personal remarks to her about the situation before she sent her reply on to your mother.
However, although the remarks may seem blunt when taken out of context and read publicly (as they were meant to be private for Angie), they are still true. One of the areas ProPay prides itself in is how tedious we are about people becoming account holders. While no one (in my opinion) can be "perfect" in that regard these days, it does appear that ProPay is taking more precautions with this than our competitors. Since we are giving inviduals the power to process credit cards like a business, we have to be sure to take as many precautions as possible. This includes a check to see if the SSN matches DOB, name, address, etc. The full membership requirements are listed on our web site. This is much "pickier" than most of our competitors require, and we like it that way.
Nevertheless, ProPay desires to offer accounts to anyone who meets our minimum requirements, even if they were denied for some reason through the automated process. The "form" mentioned in the email to your mother was in reference to an Account Exception Form that we use regularly. It is intended for people who have been denied a ProPay account via our automatic process, for some reason or another (usually due to a simple typo in their SSN or DOB). It allows them to give us their vital information on a signed physical form so we can push them through the system when they would have otherwise been denied.
*****
sg52--
Actually, if you have a good AVS match and you can show (via a shipping receipt) that you sent the merchandise to the same address as the "billing address" for the credit card, then ProPay can successfully plead your case before an issuing bank and reverse the chargeback. The seller, if they take these normal precautions, can indeed protect themselves against dishonest buyers.
However, as I stated before, ProPay will never take the chargeback option away from the buyers. They, like the sellers, must be given normal protections under credit card laws. If we didn't give both tbe buyer and the seller adequate avenues to explore, we would be doing them both a disservice.
I have heard both the buyer and seller lament using other services, because once the money changes hands they have no recourse at all. ProPay is different. Remember, there is always some risk when processing credit cards (talk to any brick-and-mortar business that processes them on a regular basis!). However, you *CAN* protect yourself, whether you are a buyer or a seller, in a way that will make sure justice prevails.
Sellers do *NOT* need a signed, imprinted card slip to fight a chargeback. An AVS match with a shipping receipt (with the same address on each) is enough.
posted on February 26, 2001 03:33:22 PM newActually, if you have a good AVS match and you can show (via a shipping receipt) that you sent the merchandise to the same address as the "billing address" for the credit card, then ProPay can successfully plead your case before an issuing bank and reverse the chargeback. The seller, if they take these normal precautions, can indeed protect themselves against dishonest buyers.
..and then!!!!!
However, as I stated before, ProPay will never take the chargeback option away from the buyers [because it's guaranteed by federal law].
Enough double talk.
"Buy our insurance, guaranteed coverage, we pay real fast, but federal law says we never have to pay, ha ha"
sg52
