posted on June 13, 2001 02:51:58 PM
I thought that I was alone and that by pointing out the obvious I was going to be able to have my situation dealt with reasonably but after finding this site I can see that I am but one of many with similar troubles with PayPal and my hopes for receiving satisfaction are sinking fast.
The facts?
I sold a watch to buyer. Buyer send payment to PayPal. PayPal warn me that the address is not verified and ask if I still want to accept it. I accept it and the funds are added to my account. I send watch to buyer, everyone is happy.
OK so far but then....
Several days later PayPal put a pending reversal on these funds. No explanation why at this point. After several attenmpts at getting an explanation they reverse the payment and tell me that the buyer has defrauded people in the past. Thats it. He defrauded someone else and so they will take the opportunity to cheat me.
Whether this buyer had defrauded people in the past or he got his money from drug smuggling or collecting dimes on the freeway exit ramp, money echanged hands and both parties, the buyer and the seller were in agreement. Now PayPal have stolen my money from me. The buyer has my watch and isn't about to send it back when he has already parted with his cash (either hard earned or otherwise).
Doesn't this constitute a fraud on me on the part of PayPal? Who set PayPal up to be the moral police for where someones money comes from. How can they say that the funds used to pay me were illegally gained. If in fact there were proven frauds committed by this individual then why allow the transaction, why was his account not suspended. If the buyer did in fact intend to defraud me then he could only do so by enlisting the services of PayPal (hopefully unwittingly) to help perpetrate this fraud.
Remember, the only warning received was that the address was not verified.
By scanning through the postings on this site I can see that I am going to have an uphill battle trying to recover my losses and so if there is any attorney who is putting together a class action case against these rediculous policies please let me know and I feel sure that I am going to be interested in joining.
posted on June 13, 2001 03:35:01 PM
What rule is it that you are saying I violated?
Does PayPal consider that unless all of its policies are adhered to that they have the right to take my money? I don't think so.
Are you, as one who has admitted to working for PayPal, making this statement officially, for the record?
If, as you say, I misunderstand the reversal, please enlighten me. I know that it is this transaction that you reversed, I am only speaking about this transaction. Your representative sent me the folowing explantion...
Thank you for your patience.
I checked with fraud and this is what happened:
1. The person you had sold the item to had defrauded other members using an auction site.
2. This person then used their gains to buy the item from you.
3. Our Seller Protection Policy does not cover International Transactions from from fraud (as you shipped overseas).
Had this been a domestic transaction, and had you had proof of shipping, you would not have had a problem.
.............................
In response to this I pointed out that I did have proof of shipping and based on that the suggestion is that I only have a problem because I shipped internationally. What now is the position of PayPal.
As much as I sympathise with you on this, I think you are out of luck. Since you took payment from a non-verified address, and also shipped overseas, PayPal will not assist you.
Please understand, I do not think it is right, but it is what I predict they are going to do. Hopefully, I am wrong.
Roofguy does not work for the company. I am also checking with the fraud department, but you still did not follow the guidelines for protection.
The Seller Protection Program does not allow for protection from international transactions. The terms of use also mention that funds can be reversed if they came about fraudulently.
posted on June 13, 2001 04:41:43 PM
Thanks for the support PurpleHaze1967. I fear that you are right.
What I am having so much trouble understanding is why, regardless of whether I shipped the product to the Moon, why did they reverse the payment.
I understand that they are saying that they are covered by their policies, which as they encourage overseas membership and proudly list all the 30+ countries that they now service (ironic huh)seems strange. That is not the point.
The buyer got the product to the best of my knowledge and claims he has no idea what PayPal are playing at.
The big question is, they are saying that they reversed the payment because the buyer had acted fraudulently in the past. They are providing no proof of that nor are they showing any proof of fraud in this particular case.
They keep saying that their policies allow them to reverse payments if the came about fraudulently. But no evidence is being provided to substantiate if fraud actually occurred. Doesn't there have to be a complainent or anyone who claims to have evidence or proof of a fraud for a fraud to exist. I sell, he buys, he pays, wheres the fraud in that.
You may have a difficult case, but that doesn't mean you should give up. I would first recommend you call the FTC help line and ask their guidance (1-877-FTC-HELP).
I will also take this as an opportunity to say that just because a company has something in their TOU does not necessarily make it binding or legal. Companies often throw in everything including the kitchen sink into their TOU. Ask their FTC what your rights are, if any. I would think you certainly have a right to ask PayPal to substaniate their actions.
posted on June 13, 2001 08:18:42 PMFortumPayPal warn me that the address is not verified and ask if I still want to accept it. I accept it
You admit you were warned, you admit you accepted the risk.
PayPal (or anyone else) has no means of keeping someone from registering an account with stolen credit card data. PayPal does offer a seller protection if they send only to a confirmed billing address, because while credit card data can easily be stolen the thief can't change the billing address.
If you understand why the rules are the way they are then you'll understand why you are the only one to blame for your problem and not PayPal.
posted on June 13, 2001 09:18:37 PM
UARU you miss the point. I was warned that the buyer did not have a verified address but that is irrelevant. There is no problem with his address, it seems to have got there.
PayPal are not saying why they reversed the payment. They are not saying who asked for it to be reversed, where the money went to, why they did it or anything.
The buyer says that he thinks that they made a serious error.
PayPal keep saying that the payment was reversed because it was an international transaction, that should not be the problem. International transactions happen every day and they tout that they service 32 countries or some such.
They then stated that it was because of the unverified address which as I have already stated is irrelevant. So what the buyer wanted it shipped somewhere. He is not denying he got it.
Now they are stating that previous fraud between the buyer and other clients is the reason. What has that got to do with me. Unless it can be proved that the funds are directly attributed to fraudulent activity then PayPal have robbed Peter to pay Paul, in this case I am Peter. Whose to say that the monies that he paid me were not earned legitimately.
The story keeps changing.
I am willing to own up to my responsibility in any of this but as the buyer and the seller are happy with the deal so far and only PayPal are interfering I hardly see that this is my problem and I need to take it in the shorts.
Now, if they can prove any of their allegations I would like to see their evidence but waving around terms like fraud is an open invitation to slander charges by the buyer amongst other things.
posted on June 14, 2001 02:03:11 AMastrophel2i want PayPal to explain to me why they seem to act in ways that punish the sellers
A seller could be a willing partner in the fraud, and PayPal can't afford to subsidize every seller that is part of a fraud scheme or unable to understand their liabilities when they don't ship to a confirmed billing address with proof of that (even when they warn them in the payment received email).
You are dreaming if you expect anyone to protect you if you accept a credit card payment and ship somewhere other than the billing address. PayPal at least notifies you if the billing address isn't included and gives you the option of declining the transaction. Other services don't even give you those tools. Look around.
posted on June 14, 2001 08:05:35 AM
Fortnum, I still think your interpretation is a bit mistaken.
If you had followed the rules, you would have been protected. Period.
Since you ignored the crucial rule regarding shipping to a different address (and even a different COUNTRY), you are no longer protected from fraud, and, as it unfortunately turns out, you have been victimized by this buyer.
The problem was not that this was an international transaction (although we might guess that you sent this stuff to a country which PayPal does not do business in due to fraud). The problem was that your buyer was a fraud.
posted on June 14, 2001 09:42:25 AM
What your missing here is, the guy is dishonest...your probably very trust worthy and have never tried to deceieve and it's hard for the majority to understand...Think of this way, when you arrive at work you probably have a great understanding of your title and responsibilites and know how to do your job very well...
Think of the con artists and thiefs, everyday they wake up they concentrate on new ways to deceive and take others...and become very good at it... I too have shipped to unverified addresses but to this day no problem..I have since stopped...But this guy is sitting in the shadows waiting for people to be trusting and then he stikes..!
posted on June 14, 2001 10:30:53 AM
So what?! The buyer is a fraud. Pursue him and not the seller! Here is what I would like to know: investigating my own fraud situation, I found out that the person who had her bank account information stolen received an email from PayPal stating that hacking and skimming of money has been discovered [on her account] and they were looking into there system and not to worry." This email was dated MAY 30. $1500 in fraudlent credit card use occured between MAY 30 and JUNE 4. I, along with 10 or so other ebayers, have long sent the item to this guy.. on JUNE 14, I foundthat PayPal had just stripped the money from my account. If PayPal knew that something was going on, or even SUSPECTED that something was going on and didn't warn the sellers (the real losers of all of this), then they should take the punch for the losses- NOT US! Even if the police find the perp(s), it unlikely that we will get our stuff back. The stolen-card lady will probably get her money back, and meanwhile, PayPal is earning revenue on this $1500 that is sitting on "hold." What does paypal lose? They had the insecure system, they knew that hacking or skimming occured and continued to let the sellers ship items without warning, and then they took OUR money away! I realize I did not ship to a confirmed address, and I realize (or rather assume) that if I had, I would have been protected. This is NOT THE ISSUE SO DON"T SEND ME YOUR PAYPAL PRAISING NOTES restating what I just said. The "perp" stated that the item was for her son and to send it to her son's address. Seemed reasonable to me.. she had 600 positive feedback with no negatives and it was a video game, after all. WHY DID PAYPAL ALLOW TRANSACTIONs TO BE MADE FROM AN ACCOUNT THAT THEY SUSPECTED TO BE THE SUBJECT OF HACKING?
posted on June 14, 2001 11:33:23 AM
So Roofguy and UARU, your position is that PayPal owe me no explanation as to the root cause of the events here and that it is just my tough luck.
You are making a big assumption, that the buyer is in fact a con artist where to date, PayPal have provided no proof of that being the case. They have not said that the buyer took back his money (and how pray does one do that after you have had it taken out of your bank by PayPal).
It apparently is a lucrative, no lose situation that everyone should get into. Buy stuff, pay through PayPal and then take your money back. How does that work, PayPal go into my bank account and removes funds easily enough.
As defensive as you (Roofguy and UARA) are of PayPal, and as willing as you are to accept that they can act unilaterally and provide no justification or explanation, one has to assume that you are shills for PayPal or have some vested interest somehow.
I do not expect PayPal to absorb my losses if in fact I dealt with a con artist, I believe in Caveat Emptor but whose to say that PayPal have not either a. made a mistake or b.are complicit in the fraud. As apostrophy12 points out, if PayPal knew that one of their clients was involved in fraudulent activity and did nothing to prevent it, are they not somehow obliged to assist in whatever effort can be made to rectify the situation. I can hear you now "not legally" or "not according to policy number 123 etc", but I refer to ethical obligations, moral obligations and just plain old good customer service obligations.
Remember, they did not warn me that there was a history of fraud here, they simply sent me a canned form with the warning that the address was not verified.
If I know of someone who you are about to have baby-sit your child is a sex offender, convicted or not, do I not have a moral obligation to tell you. And if, god forbid, the worst happens and you find out that I knew and could have prevented it, would you not feel that I was legally in the wrong and would you not likely sue me?
Now is it any less important when we are talking about buying goods and the monies involved. Does it matter how much money is involved in order to make that call for you. A weeks salary, a month, 10 years?
PayPal may be more concerned with covering their legal behinds but I believe they should be held more accountable when they set themselves up as the middlemen in financial transactions and especially when they stand to gain from those transactions.
Oh yes, I almost forgot, when they reversed the payment they kept their piece of the pie, the service charges.
[ edited by Fortnum on Jun 14, 2001 11:36 AM ]
posted on June 15, 2001 01:50:27 AMFortnumone has to assume that you are shills for PayPal
If you told me that Bob VCR Discount Outlet refused to exchange a VCR you purchased there because you had no proof of purchase and I said, "You should keep a proof of purchase" your logic would make me a shill for that store?
Sorry you don't like my answer that a proof of shipment to a confirmed billing address is required, but that does not make me a shill for PayPal.
Research your problem, file all the complaints you wish. In time you'll probably understand what a few of us have been trying to tell you. Don't dismiss the messenger just because you don't like the message.
---------
edited to give the poster more respect than they gave me.
As defensive as you (Roofguy and UARA) are of PayPal, and as willing as you are to accept that they can act unilaterally and provide no justification or explanation, one has to assume that you are shills for PayPal or have some vested interest somehow
is insulting in nature - Please discuss the topic at hand and refrain from making personal comments to or about other posters.
posted on June 15, 2001 10:34:19 AM
Who is responsible for fraud if a PayPal user unknowingly distributes all of her account info (password, name, address, email address and account password) to a scammer?
posted on June 15, 2001 12:13:19 PM
With apologies to those offended (interesting that being thought of as working for PayPal is considered an insult), I continue to point out that I am not holding PayPal liable for anything but to provide me the information that they have that led them to the action that they took.
I realize that in the end it will likely fall to me to take whatever legal action against whomever the ultimate perpetrator is but that action is virtually impossible when they are shielded by PayPals stonewalling.
Their reputation for punishing the punished and aiding the defrauder is richly deserved in my opinion, an opinion based upon, and substantiated by the trail of emails, many of which have gone unanswered or are answered in ways that avoid providing an answer to the actual question.
Unless they are held to a higher standard of customer care they will continue to provide the less than adequate service that some have come to accept.
As long as PayPal accept (or take) fees for the service, they have a feduciary responsibility to the client. The con artist is not generating them any income and so they have no responsibility to them either feduciary or ethically.
posted on June 15, 2001 12:36:59 PMFortnuminteresting that being thought of as working for PayPal is considered an insult
Fortnum, accusing someone of shill postings is an insult, by doing that you dismiss their messages as one being influenced by a hidden agenda. I don't remember you asking if I was a PayPal employee (I'm not), just that you could only assume I was a shill. Interesting how you'd try brush off what you were doing as no insult.
posted on June 15, 2001 03:28:26 PM
My understanding of the policies of this board are that direct communication between individuals is considered inappropriate. That being the case I once again apologize to ANYONE who feels offended by the suggestion that they may work for PayPal.
Assumptions otherwise are made when the responses have a strong similarity to that of PayPals, where constant pointing out of the obvious, what one cannot accomplish, is preferential to offering suuport and suggestions as to what can be accomplished.
Negativity is readily available, from PayPal. Instead of the derision and chiding as to what one did wrong, the purpose of participating here, at least for this individual, is to look for assistance and suggestions as to how one might fix the problem.
posted on June 15, 2001 03:56:27 PMthe purpose of participating here, at least for this individual, is to look for assistance and suggestions as to how one might fix the problem.
Fortnum, if you just wanted to gripe about the rules, that's allowed. Sometimes it even works, and the rules get changed.
But so far it seems you're trying to stick someone else with the consequences of your own decision to ignore the rules. It's the kind of argument which is bound to get a bit of negative feedback.
posted on June 20, 2001 06:05:50 PM
Besides the Paypal fanclub at it again and the moderators one-sided intervention, It sounds like one thing remains unanswered. Was there an allegation made that the funds used to pay for the watch were paid from a stolen credit card or pilfered account?
Despite what the Paypallies say, that needs to be explained.
contact: [email protected]
posted on June 20, 2001 08:22:42 PM
Apart from the usual standard correspondance that only bears a slight resemblance to the original matter at hand there has been no new information.
At this point PayPal are saying that they reversed the payment due to fraudulent activity but will provide no additional information as it is their policy not to divulge any personal information.
I have been in contact with the ISP for the buyer who explained that the buyer used a free account but did point out how their IP number could be traced.
My next step is to file a computer crimes report with my local PD which I am sure will be just as helpful.
We daily hear the industry complaining about the amount of fraudulent activity that they have to deal with and how they spend so much on it. PayPal state that in almost all of their correspondance. It seems to me that if they wanted to cut it down on internet crime they should help those who wish to track down and prosecute the offenders rather than allowing them to hide under their skirts.
Instead of crying victim they need to realize that they are an enabler to crime and instead play a part in the solution.
In my case I will continue to plug on for my own satisfaction that I am trying to do something about it. I have no illusions that that I will ever get compensated but at least I know that I am behaving ethically and sleep better for that thought. How the senior management at PayPal sleep I don't know, probably very well as they apparently have stood by this pattern of customer treatment for some time now.
As long as the complacency of those who just give up, and the blind ignorance of the PayPallies exists then they will stay the way that they are and justice will not prevail.
The personal information on a user's account, regardless of the circumstances involved, is protected by various privacy laws. You are more than welcome to the particulars of the person's records if you follow proceedings to do so, which would entail getting a subpoena.
I am going to include the information from the terms of use relative to transactions (as it relates to the transaction and your liability for it (or reversal of the payment).
Receipt of Payments; Risk of Reversal of Transactions; Collection of Funds you owe PayPal. When you receive a payment through the Service, unless you follow the steps necessary to qualify for our Seller Protection Policy described in Part IV of this User Agreement, you are not protected against a subsequent reversal of the transaction. In the event that the sender’s transaction is reversed for any reason and you do not qualify for the Seller Protection Policy for that transaction, you will owe PayPal for the amount of the reversed transaction plus any fees imposed on PayPal as a result of the reversal. Examples of such a reversal include, but are not limited to, a credit card charge-back by the sender of the payment, and a reversal of the transaction because the sender of the payment was using a stolen credit card or unauthorized checking account. PayPal will seek to recover the funds from you by debiting your PayPal balance and, if there are not sufficient funds in your PayPal balance, PayPal reserves the right to collect your debt to PayPal by any other legal means. You authorize PayPal to charge your credit card or debit card in the amount of any debt to PayPal. You authorize PayPal to obtain a credit report on you in the event that you incur a debt to PayPal.
In addition, our fraud /charge back rates are exceptionally low because of the verification methods utilized and how aggressively we pursue fraud (the rates are well below industry average and we do utilize proprietary software to detect potential fraud).
I certainly realize that this has been a frustrating experience for you, but the true issue is with the buyer that defrauded you.
posted on June 21, 2001 04:32:29 AMAs long as the complacency of those who just give up, and the blind ignorance of the PayPallies exists then they will stay the way that they are and justice will not prevail.
It is very difficult not to yield to temptation to give up in the face of PayPal's non-answers, endless regurgitation of the TOU, and the locking of threads that dare to press for deserved answers. I am reduced to malingering from the sidelines, as all other avenues have been closed to me. I wouldn't be surprised if deactivation of my id is next.
posted on June 21, 2001 01:59:55 PM
"...but the true issue is with the buyer that defrauded you."
Has it been established that the buyers transaction utilized fraudulant funds, i.e. someone elses account. Until this has been established and verified, Paypal is the one that has defrauded you.
The removal of funds from a persons account deserves immediate notification of the reason why.
If you feel that Paypal has been unresponsive, complain to the Better Business Bureau. So far, that seems to get the fastest response.
Like PayPal, Priceline once was also rated "unsatisfactory" by the BBB. But it took only 3 months for 10-million customer Priceline to make changes that convinced the BBB to lift that rating.
posted on June 21, 2001 02:35:00 PM
I certainly feel like PayPal have helped someone to defraud me even if they didn't do it themselves.
In my case they have not provided any evidence to suggest that there has been fraud in this matter only to say that there has been and that they have the information but are protecting the person who defrauded me by shielding themselves with privacy policies. (Just take out word on it)
In a nutshell they are telling to $%#@ off and come back with a subpeona if I want any more info. A wonderful attitude to take I must say.
They feel content to wash their hands like Pontius Pilot saying "not our fault that you were done wrong". And "we are not even going to provide you with the very details of transactions to your own account, let alone the account of someone else, in order that you can begin to seek restitution".
I can see where they would want to maintain some level of privacy by not sharing information about another persons account but once that transaction impacted my account the source of the funds, the account numbers etc, become mine. If the person had sent me a check directly, I would have that information in my hand and action could begin.
Someone did something to make PayPal reverse this account. Either someone claimed that their stolen credit card was used or else that the account numbers used to withdraw monies from a checking account were fraudulent. If the complainant is not a client then PayPal have no need to shield them, they stand to lose nothing. If the reversal came for any other reason and there is no third party complainant, then they have allowed a buyer to reverse a payment after receiving goods which to me appears to be aiding and abetting a fraud.
Payapl have never provided information as to the actions that caused this to occur. They can do that part without providing names and account numbers, but they choose instead to cloak themselves in their policy statements and reiterating that I would have been covered if this was not international etc. All of which is true and not ether the issue or any help.
Could it be that as long as this crook is out there doing this, PayPal are still generating revenues from his actions. They certainly took their fee out of this transaction.
I am sure that very soon now, auctionwatch are going to say that PayPal have answered the question and that the thread will be locked. That appears to happen once PayPal repeats something several times, even if they have not truly resolved anything.
By the way, do you have a contact address for the BBB?
