posted on June 21, 2001 05:34:54 AM new
I am a big ebay seller and love to shop there as well for some name brand items. I thought a few weeks ago about going to yahoo and see what is going on there. I have noticed tons and tons of fakes and I even emailed yahoo and asked them if they cancel ads with proof that the item is fake. They gave me a generic response that if I feel I was treated unfairly by a seller to contact some type of internet fraud division.
Give me a break. I know people list fakes on ebay and some sneak through but I have bid on what I thought was a genuine article and later had it ended. At least ebay has some concern about fake articles and take you very seriously if you complain to them about a specific listing.
Did I just get some generic response from Yahoo or is their policy that you (as the buyer) are just going to have to take that chance?
If that is the case I can see why tons more people go to ebay and I will continue to as well.
posted on June 21, 2001 06:42:29 AM new
Firstly, yes, you did get a generic bot response from Yahoo - I don't think they have any real staff left.
Secondly, Yahoo encourages the sales of fakes, bootlegs, and the like as they make money from these sleazy sellers and they do absolutely nothing to stop them.
Thirdly, if you are a legit buyer and report the fake sellers to Yahoo, they will terminate YOUR account.
posted on June 21, 2001 07:06:18 AM new
YES I AGREE FULLY WITH YOU.
I MYSELF HAVE CONTACTED YAHOO ABOUT A CLEAR VIOLATION OF FEDERAL LAW CONCERNING COPY RIGHTS,
Here is the example, people taping movies, etc, on blank tapes, and selling them. this is a clear violation, and give it sometime, when the right people get contacted, and the one's in power will let yahoo know legally they will be prosecuted if they continue to allow these vhs tapes to be sold.
I did my part and reported to yahoo only, and yes they gave me the same can message.
yahoo will never be the same, it is very clear the hits they recieve on each auction, and then if your very lucky one bid you get. the traffic went out the door, and with the economy the way it is, it has effect not only yahoo, but many other sites.
I recieve over 500 e-mails per day, on a slow day, and many are from former bidders and sellers that where very loyal to yahoo a year ago, now they are in disbeleaf over the turn of events.
and freedom of speech has gone out the window with most chat area's. i realize that bad language, or rule breaking should bot be permitted, and i agree, but when it comes to basic honest statements, some people in charge can't handle the truth as jack nickelson would say, or they are getting somewhere their bread buttered from certain company's so they have to look the other way.
i hope some day honesty and integrady, and good customer realtions will comes back to the auction sites, i know their are still some really fine auction sites out their, of course we won't mention them here.
posted on June 21, 2001 12:51:02 PM new
Sweetboo
Their items not allowed to list state:
"Any item that is counterfeit or stolen, including items that are:
"replicas," "knock-offs," in the same "style" as, or "fake" versions of a name brand product."
If you care to you do have to complain to the right address
[email protected] and specify auction #'s.
No doubt Yahoo has a very spotty record of enforcing their TOS. On copyright sometimes they cancel the ads and sometimes just tell you to complain to the copyright holder, not Yahoo. Maybe they flip a coin, who knows? (Though I have gotten more ad canceled than get lost responses).
RB, I don't know why they would term an ID for complaining but to be on the safe side anyone can email without stating their ID. If you think it's worth the trouble just get an acct at any freemail address and complain all you want to [email protected]
posted on June 23, 2001 07:10:57 AM new
"RB, I don't know why they would term an ID for complaining but to be on the safe side anyone can email without stating their ID. If you think it's worth the trouble just get an acct at any freemail address and complain all you want to [email protected]"
That's a farce. My problem with Yahoo is exactly what startrek has mentioned above. I tried the abuse thing - didn't work. All I got back was canned responses telling me that unless the owner of the copyright contacted Yahoo, they would do nothing. I can see this in cases where the violation may be vague, but anyone can figure out that a person selling the 2nd season of "The Sopranos" on EP dubbed tapes is clearly violating Trademark Law (by including the series and HBO logos in their listings) and Copyright Law (by selling bootlegs of a series that HBO itself is marketing).
I even went so far as to contact Yahoo's so-called copyright expert (can't recall the name but it probably doesn't matter anyway). That "person" didn't even offer me the courtesy of a canned reply.
The straw that broke the camel's back, for me at least, was when I won an auction for some teevee eps (that HAVE been commercially released), found out from the seller that he was selling homemade copies, reported the seller, and got booted off Yahoo when the seller reported me for reporting him!
The only reason that I can come up with as to why Yahoo refuses to deal with these criminals is that they like the money they get from the listing and sales of these illegal items.
Like startrek suggests, there are more than a few of us who are taking action with real copyright lawyers, studios and the MPAA. If Yahoo continues to knowingly allow their site to be used for illegal activites, they will have to explain their reasons to a Judge.
posted on June 23, 2001 01:08:08 PM new
It is absolutely all right to sell fakes, anywhere, as long as it is disclosed as a fake.
The market for a fake is not the same for a genuine article. The people buying $50 fake Rolex' aren't the people who would dish out $10,000 for a real one. So the propraganda BS that companies say that their image will be tarnished. Only a bonehead would agree with that.
Same goes for a Bootleg. People buy it because it offers something that the origional company can't offer. The one's who want the genuine article will pay whatever to have it and would not settle for a cheap version.
I'm happy Yahoo doesn't bend over for the whiners who have no basis for a complaint. And I'm glad I have a place to buy fakes if I so choose to.
posted on June 25, 2001 10:40:20 AM new
I wasn't offering advice, I was simply stating my opinion. Still, laws aren't written in stone, a jury can overturn any law.
If you take George Lucas (Star Wars) as an example, he doesn't give two hoots whether fans violate his copyright laws, but he doesn't want someone reproducing the movies by the truckload and selling them. Most companies feel the same way. I feel a line has been drawn and as long as you don't cross it, you may sell bootlegs.
RB, I feel that you are threatened by bootlegs, such as your business is hurt by them. I don't agree. Like I said, bootlegs have a different market.
posted on June 25, 2001 10:55:23 AM new
IF YOU WANT SCIENCE FICTION THEN I SELL STAR TREK ITEMS, BUT IF YOU WANT THE LAW, THEN THIS IS IT !!!
1. IT IS A FEDERAL OFFENSE TO SELL ANY VHS TAPE, CASSETTE, RECORD, WHATEVER, THAT IS NOT THE ORIGINAL, IF COPIED FROM THE ORIGINAL THEN YOU COMMITT A FELONY.
2. IF YOU SHOW A MOVIE INSIDE A DAY CARE FOR EXAMPLE THAT IS THE ORIGINAL, IT IS STILL AGAINST THE LAW, BECAUSE IT IS FOR PERSONAL HOME USE ONLY. THIS IS STATED ON EACH MOVIE IN FRONT.
3. MY OPINION DOESN'T MATTER A HILL OF BEANS, BUT THE LAW IS THE LAW. AND YES IT IS BROKEN EVERY DAY AT AUCTIONS SITES, AND FLEA MARKETS, AND THRU MAIL SYSTEMS. BUT THAT DOESN'T MAKE IT RIGHT.
4. IT IS TRUE MOST GOVERNMENT AGENCIES ARE OVER WORKED, AND DON'T HAVE THE TIME TO INVESTIGATE MOST PROBLEMS UNLESS THEY ARE INFORMED, AND KEEP BEING INFORMED BY MORE THAN ONE PERSON.
5. I HAVE CONTACTED YAHOO, I HAVE DONE MY JOB, NOW IT IS UP TO THEM TO ENFORCE THE LAW.
WHEN, AND IT WILL, SOMEDAY YAHOO WILL BE NOTIFIED BY FEDERAL AGENCY THAT THEY ARE IN VIOLATION AND MUST STOP ANY AUCTIONS WITH FRAUD IS CLEAR !!! UNTIL THAT DAY ARRIVES, I KNOW IN MY HEART I HAVE DONE MY CIVIC DUTY TO INFORM YAHOO... AND ALSO GIVE THEM A CHANCE TO CLEAR THIS UP WITHOUT OUTSIDE INTERFERECE...
6. DOES YAHOO APPREICATE WHAT I HAVE DONE, PROBABLY NOT, THEY DON'T CARE, IF THEY DID. THEY WOULD HAVE WRITTEN AN E-MAIL SOMETHING LIKE THIS !!!
DEAR SO AND SO;
WE APPREICATE YOU BRINGING TO OUR ATTENTION THE PROBLEM WITH AN AUCTION OR AUCTIONS THAT YOU HAVE SEEN ON YAHOO.
PLEASE BE ASSURED WE WILL DO EVERYTHING IN OUR POWER TO CONTACT THIS SELLER, AND REMOVE THE AUCTION AT THIS TIME FOR BREAKING FEDERAL COPY RIGHT LAWS.
WE REALIZE THAT MOVIES CAN BE TAPED AT HOME FOR PERSONAL USE, AND ENJOYMENT, BUT NOT FOR RESALE ON THE INTERNET AUCTION SITES.
AGAIN;
THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME,
TO WRITE TO US, AND INFORM US.
SINCERELY
YAHOO MANAGEMENT...
IT WOULD BE NICE IF I RECIEVED THIS KIND OF LETTER, BUT I AM LIVING IN THE REAL WORLD, WHERE JUSTICE, HONOR, KINDNESS, AND TRUTHFULNESS, HAS GONE OUT THE DOOR !!!
[ edited by startrek on Jun 25, 2001 10:58 AM ]
posted on June 25, 2001 11:13:13 AM new
The law and the way the law is enforced are two different things. I jaywalked in front of cop cars on numerous occasions and never got arrested. Discresion is used. They ask, what is the real harm? If the real harm is low, they won't bother.
If a well known site such as Yahoo plays a deaf ear to complaints about bootlegs, that tells you one thing, the FEDS don't give a hoot and haven't pressured them to do something about it.
posted on June 25, 2001 11:55:05 AM new
quickdraw ... so you're saying that as long as you don't get caught, you're not doing anything wrong? That kind of thought can get you in all kinds of ka ka
As for Yahoo turning a deaf ear, it's really quite obvious (to me anyway) why they do this, especially since they introduced fees. I hope they save up enough of these fees to pay the fines when they get nailed by the Feds.
startrek is Spot On ... the day is coming.
btw, I don't have a business ... I just happen to have a hobby that involves videotapes that I have been enjoying for many, many years. The sales of bootlegs and pirated materials hurts everyone.
Ever wonder why a VHS tape or DVD costs so much?
You can justify your argument all you want by complaining about the greedy studios and filmmakers, and the stupid laws, but I happen to agree with the stance taken by the MPAA and the Law.
I doubt very much if Yahoo can claim "ignorance" before the Judge. They too know the same laws and legal opinions that I do, and they know they are encouraging the breaking of these laws by knowingly allowing bootleggers to thrive on their site. This problem is not going to go away for Yahoo as long as I continue to breath and communicate with my MPAA buddies
[ edited by RB on Jun 25, 2001 12:01 PM ]
[ edited by RB on Jun 25, 2001 12:05 PM ]
posted on June 25, 2001 12:47:58 PM new
Are all you scofflaws entirely certain the feds aren't active even now running some version of sting operation buying, selling, or both, of this sort of copyrighted material online? Ever noticed how many years of silence there is before you see films of dozens, if not hundreds, of whining crying scruffy trailertrash types being led away in cuffs? You sure Yahoo isn't covering their butts by *cooperating*?
posted on June 25, 2001 05:10:00 PM new
RB, don't put words in my mouth. Right and wrong can often be differences of opinion, that's why some laws are vetoed, some don't get enough votes to pass, some may pass by one vote. If 48% of the lawmakers agree with me that what "I" did was right, and 52% say "I" am wrong, what does that say about a country when a person is sent off to prison over a matter which a near majority disagree with?
Personally I will do whatever I feel I am morally fine with whether there is a law against it or not, and since I'm not an extremist I am positive that the law enforcement field will agree with me enough not to fully enforce those instances.
posted on June 25, 2001 05:19:57 PM new
pyth00n, you're definitely right about that, like the forged signature stings they did last year on ebay. But those are severe instances of crime, people who may be making multi-thousands of dollars off forgery. I am sure there will be a sting with bootlegs in cases where sellers are selling truckloads of this stuff. On Yahoo, I haven't done a full check on all this bootleg material, but it appears there are some sellers who are definitely selling beyond what a common citizen would sell (like a few copies from their collection), and their butt is in danger in being hauled off to jail. I don't agree that they are necessarily doing anything wrong, but logic never ruled this world.
I have to add that if buyers aren't complaining about bootlegs then the feds will probably not concern themselves with it.
[ edited by quickdraw29 on Jun 25, 2001 05:21 PM ]
posted on June 26, 2001 01:03:04 AM new
Sure, and with millions of dollars in campaign money I can see why.
My attitude is not insane, surely you jest. Our country was built on soveriegn power and it was weak fools, possibly people a lot like yourself, who was responsible for relinquishing that power to the government. I would think the one who chooses a insuperior role is the insane one.
posted on June 26, 2001 04:54:21 AM new
Sure, try to change the subject
Back in the 60's I used to sit around with my friends enjoying the fruits of our labour discussing how unjust "the system" is.
Then I grew up and got over that.
For those who didn't, just remember that the next time someone comes into your yard and steals your kid's brand new bicycle, it's OK. That person probably needed it more than you and probably doesn't agree with that stupid law about stealing anyway.
btw ... stealing a bicycle from a kid is kinda like stealing a movie or teevee series from it's owner ... isn't it?
posted on June 26, 2001 06:27:34 AM new
startrek....
PLEASE STOP CAPPING! I CANT STAND IT! I MEAN IT! Please?
as for bootlegging, bootlegging something like SOPRANOS, that you can BUY at the stores, or anything that can be had right now, at any Suncoast, or even recent films that is playing in the movie theatres and will eventually come out on tape in 3 month, (like the recent rash of bootlegged CROUCHING TIGERH IDDEN DRAGON) thats wrong. WRONG WRONG!
However, if there is a movie or a old serial, or a old TV show, that was never released on tape, (yes, its true, not everything was ever released on video, believe it or not) or never ever will play on TV again, then that's a tricky question. Is this the ONLY means for me to see this film? Is this the only way for me to see the film in it's unedited form? Will I die never seeing this film, or show, unless this is the only way to see it, as that films studio feels they have no intention of releasing this film on video, and this is the only way?
Tough call. If the copy is good, then actually I have no problem, as long as the film was never ever released on video. But I do have a problem when someone is hocking a SOPRANO series, or a movie that is/was out on video, then I do complain to yahoo, on their deaf years, sadly.
posted on June 26, 2001 07:18:41 AM new
Nice post ironking.
"However, if there is a movie or a old serial, or a old TV show, that was never released on tape ... then that's a tricky question."
Not really. There is such a thing as "public domain" stuff that can be copied and sold. I suggest that if you want to buy or sell a copy of something that you may 'think' has never been released or is in the public domain, you should do some research first.
It doesn't go just by the age of the art ... Disney's stuff is a good example of this. Ever wonder why you don't see boots of Disney stuff on the auction sites? Disney lawyers take this very seriously.
"Is this the ONLY means for me to see this film?"
There is another way, and that is called "tape trading". Although technically this activity could be challenged in a court of law, historically traders are pretty well left alone to enjoy their hobby. Once money enters the picture, the rules change.
"If the copy is good, then actually I have no problem, as long as the film was never ever released on video."
Unless you are in the business or have access to some very obscure information, you may not be able to find out if a film has ever been released or not. Many films have had limited releases in other countries. Legally, you cannot make a copy of one of these and sell it here. Copyright protection is worldwide.
"But I do have a problem when someone is hocking a SOPRANO series, or a movie that is/was out on video, then I do complain to yahoo, on their deaf years, sadly."
If you enjoy Yahoo, then I respectfully suggest you use caution when reporting these lawbreakers to them Yahoo tends to take the side of ther sellers and they may end up terminating your account.
PS - If anyone here has purchased a bootleg copy of a film or teevee series, be aware that when the seller gets caught s/he is given the option of providing the names and addresses of all purchasers, or paying a fine and having their duplicating equipment seized.
What do you think that seller will do?
Why do you think the lawyers ask for this info (via Registered Mail)?
posted on June 26, 2001 07:25:04 AM new
Actually the BIGGEST bootlegger of them all is this on line store called VSOM.com. Check them out, they sell nothing but bootlegs, and somehow convinced imdb.com into thinking they are the legal distributors of these films, when they are not. SO they even get a free link from imdb. They have 5000 titles in their library! Apperently, according to their web site, they found a legal loophole that makes them OK to sell these things. So they charge 35 bucks for a blank video tape with no video box! Wouldn't suprise me if these guys bootlegging SOPRANOS might be using the same legal loopholes these clowns found. ):
By the way, if yahoo closesd your account for reporting these bootleggers, isn't that against some law? (even though yahoo has already broken about a dozen laws in their so called TOS violation crackdown on outspoken sellers!)
posted on June 26, 2001 11:15:44 AM new
RB, that's nothing to brag about. Your indifference just means more power to me becuase I do talk to my Congressman on a monthly basis.
"Stealing a bike" is a bad analogy because that's an act the police would definitely arrest a thief for doing. Stealing a daisy from your garden is more what I'm referring to as being acceptable, as long as they don't take ALL the daisies. Seriously, would you call the police if someone stole a daisy from your garden?
posted on June 26, 2001 02:16:11 PM new
Well as the original poster on this I have been amazed at the response this post has gotten.
I was originally annoyed because people were selling fake handbags and getting away with it. I had no idea there were people out there that had the guts to say it is ok to sell fakes. I lived in NYC and know how easy it is to get a fake designer item and that is fine if you want to buy that. Now that I am not a nanny anymore and actually make a great living I can afford the real stuff but am disgusted with Yahoo's stance on not really giving a dang if sellers list it as 100% Authentic and it isn't.
I am thrilled so many people share my view. Too bad we can't go to other places besides ebay to get real ones on an auction site.
Good luck all, enjoy your bickering.
posted on June 26, 2001 05:28:15 PM new
I feel absolutely obligated to come to the side of Quickdraw in this regard. Does everyone expect the government and laws to protect them against something that only requires a little common sense? If an item is being offered by a seller for a fraction of its known value do you all need the government to tell you it is probably a copy or counterfeit? Wasn't the commerce in this country built on the premise of 'caveat emptor" do you all need to be hand fed about everything including a decision to bid or not on what must be obviously a fake? Fakes, frauds will always be available and depending on the law to eliminate them isn't very realistic. There is a market for reproductions i.e. fakes, (sic)"those people less fortunate" that appreciate the style,color, form of say, a Rolex, but, will never be able to afford one, should they be forbidden from having at least a representation of the original. Doesn't the art world even provide a motel copy of a Rembrandt? without some wimp calling for the FBI to investigate and insist it's a copy and an arrest should be made. Do you really want big brother making all decisions on every thing thats available in the market place..I don't think so, no one is ever cheated without some self-cuplablity. Folks a lot of the buying and bidding population needs to take some responsibility for their own decisions and stop asking for law enforcement to regulate all of our acts. Does anyone, or is anyone old enough, to remember a highly regulated society called the Soviet Union? Even the price of bread was set by the government and there weren't any copies,fakes, or copyright violations then...there are now! along with a bonus - freedom! Ask any soviet citizen now living here their thoughts about too much interference by ones government or it's law enforcement.
[ edited by zjq on Jun 26, 2001 05:39 PM ]
posted on June 26, 2001 06:54:50 PM new
"Does everyone expect the government and laws to protect them against something that only requires a little common sense?"
I fail (still) to see why some of you keep blaming the government for this. If you don't like the laws, then contact your representative and do something about getting them changed.
I don't like the laws on copyright any more than you do, but until or unless they change, I am smart enough to realize that it's a good idea to try to follow them. We don't get to pick and choose which laws to follow based on whether we agree with them or not.
And as for "common sense", I suggest it has been proven on this thread that in some cases, that just doesn't exist and it has to be legislated
"Fakes, frauds will always be available and depending on the law to eliminate them isn't very realistic."
So I guess we may as well agree there's no more point in trying to protect the rights of those persons who have spent time, money and effort to produce the "real stuff" anymore NOT.
"There is a market for reproductions i.e. fakes, (sic)"those people less fortunate" that appreciate the style,color, form of say, a Rolex,"
I thought we were talking about bootleg and pirated videotapes
I can see that trying to convince some people to obey the laws, no matter how ridiculous they may seem, is a lost cause. I will bow out of this thread now - I've had this silly argument too many times. In the meantime, I will continue to follow copyright and trademark law with my buys and sells - I have far to much invested to risk losing it.
posted on June 26, 2001 06:55:13 PM new
I can tell you from experience nobody will be prosecuted for selling a few bootlegs. I owned a video store for 12 years, and the whole video piracy laws are a farce. Almost every mom and pop video store rents pirated videos. Trust me you most likely have rented one because they are so realistic you cant tell the difference. I used to get all the video magazines that would list piracy by companies, and all they would do is take all the bootlegs and copy machines from them. I have no problem selling or buying them, and I wont lose any sleep over it.
posted on June 26, 2001 07:40:07 PM new
"We don't get to pick and choose which laws to follow based on whether we agree with them or not."
Why not, Our President pick and chose to lie under oath.
Our Congress picks and chooses to write bad checks without funds in the account. In a three year period, 355 members of Congress wrote 20,000 bad checks. 200 wrote checks in excess of the next months paychecks. 99 wrote bad checks in excess of their next months paychecks twice in a three year period.
How many went to jail? None!
