posted on July 31, 2000 08:03:55 AM new
FAILED to post RESERVE. Bidder won $4000 below cost!!! PLEASE no newbies, I need experience here. Buyer is giving me a very hard time and wants this item at his winning bid of $8999. Cost is nearly $13000! An honest mistake and he is NOT going to get this item. I have emailed Yahoo twice and have been understanding and very polite to the bidder. Next step is to await his legal action as far as I can tell. Any other ideas? I am an experienced eBay seller ([email protected]) I have emailed back and forth with this bidder for 5 days now and have saved it all and at this point I will no longer respond. He is clear that after 5pm today he is suing me. Thanks.
posted on July 31, 2000 09:19:00 AM new
What did the buyer say when you said it was a mistake? I would sooner take the neg than to loss $4000. I don't know if he would go to the trouble of suing you. What is he out? Melanie
"If man were to be crossed with a cat, it would greatly improve the man, but deteriorate the cat." Mark Twain
posted on July 31, 2000 11:52:02 AM new
There have been some good threads on the AW eBay board about online auctions and whether there is an actual contract.
I came away with the impression that it is untested in any courts and that you can neither force a person to sell or pay for an item sold thru online auctions.
You may get to be in the unfortunate position of the test case.
I would consider posting the auction with the reserve , if not already done, to establish a record of the correct offering.
I have no idea what position YAHOO may have taken in the past in similar circumstances and there minimal customer service approach doesn't offer a contact office I'm aware of where you can establish an ongoing dialogue.
While I understand your position I can also accept that the buyer feels fully justified in demanding what he bid on. This has the potential for being a no win mess for everybody.
I think eBay is promoting a third party arbitration service who may be available for other sites. While you may not choose to use them in this case, a discussion with them might provide some insights into the background and legal standing of similar cases they have researched.
Good luck in reaching a resolution and please keep us posted as this plays out.
posted on July 31, 2000 12:07:58 PM new
From the Yahoo Auctions rules:
"Rules About Bids and Buying.
Yahoo! Auctions relies on the integrity of its users to honor their committments. If you offer an item for sale and a winning bid is made, or if you bid for an item and you win, you are obligated to complete the transaction."
A bid is supposedly a binding contract for BOTH parties. He could report you to Yahoo for violating Terms for refusal to sell and demand you be banned from future selling. If you don't protect your investment with a Reserve I don't know what your rights are legally. I know nothing about lawsuits, if one would have to be filed in your state or his. Does he live in a state near you, if so he might find it worth the trip. I'm guessing a lawyers first piece of advice to him would be to send you payment registered or certified and proceed based on the result of your acceptance or refusal.
You're in a bad position and I really don't know what to tell you, sorry.
posted on July 31, 2000 12:38:30 PM new
This is indeed a very sticky situation. In order for online auction to work, it must be binding & both seller & buyer must be committed to the sale. Yes eBay, Yahoo, Amazon etc are all just venues but you do have a contractual agreement & yes he can take you to court which he has said he would.
If he does take you to court, your excuse for not wanting to sell to him may sound lame. Yes, you may have the best intentions but put yourself in his situation. He won the auction has got a great deal & he expects you to honor the sale & vice versa. He doesn't know that you paid $13k for it up front when he was bidding for the item & if he does, what would have changed.
$4k is indeed a lot of money & its very unfortunate that he does not want to give you a break. I guess you will have to deal it out in the courts. When did you find out you forgot to put a Reserve?.
posted on July 31, 2000 01:25:02 PM new
Yahoo allows bid retractions and sellers can cancel bids and auctions. IDs are not verified and the number of phonies is astounding. There are fakes out there with 80 different IDs and negative feedback in the hundreds. I dont see how anyone can claim that the seller is forced to conclude the deal but the bidder can just walk away. I can give you evidence of hundreds of deadbeats and all Yahoo says is there is nothing they can do. So i doubt this guy will go to court. Even if he does, you can say that with Yahoo's abysmal record, no one can expect a Yahoo auction to be considered an enforceable contract. You have nothing to lose by walking away. Just do what everybody else does and get another Yahoo id. It only takes a minute. And this time use an untraceable email at hotmail or something. If the bidders can do it freely, why can't the sellers?
posted on July 31, 2000 01:28:40 PM new
I'm sorry, but I do find your story a bit difficult to totally believe. How could you have possibly forgotten to use a reserve price, when attempting to sell something that would be that expensive? WERE YOU SLEEPING??????I certainly hope you do not have to lose $4,000 on this one, but as the previous post said, you may very well have to. What exactly was it you were selling, that cost so much $$$ I wish you better luck next time, and try having some coffee before starting your next auction!!
posted on August 1, 2000 12:17:50 AM new
It sounds by the price level like you were selling a car or boat, in which case the purchase would have to be concluded in person at your state title-transfer office. If that's the case, just refuse to conclude the sale.
If it's NOT a licensed vehicle, refuse any payment the seller might try to send you (he doesn't have your ADDRESS, does he?????). If payment comes in your mail, DON'T CASH his check or money order.
I really don't understand how you could have let an auction go to conclusion without NOTICING you had no reserve posted, especially if you're an experienced seller...but, at this point, all you can do is CANCEL EVERY BIDDER who bid on this auction so there IS no winner on the auction, email ALL the bidders explaining what happened, and relist if you choose.
All of the online auctions let the seller back out of selling when the item is damaged or somehow lost (or stolen). If he pushes you, just tell him the item is no longer in your possession, so you can't sell it (but don't then relist it!!).
I hope he lives far, far from you, and that he doesn't have a friend or relative who's a lawyer eager to make a name for himself!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
edited for typos
[ edited by granee on Aug 1, 2000 12:24 AM ]
posted on August 1, 2000 08:10:42 AM new
The bidder acted in good faith and you screwed up. You had ample opportunity during the course of the auction to take action to fix your mistake, but you never did so.
If you want to welsh on the deal, then just remember that you are the one acting with no integrity, and don't be surprised if the bidder takes further action to attempt to make you complete your side of the bargain.
At the very least you should expect a scathing negative feedback, for you have earned it. Don't be surprised if the bidder pursues legal action.
posted on August 1, 2000 12:23:16 PM new
You appear to be clearly at fault as jthorner has well stated. Should your good name on yahoo auctions not be worth the $4000 to you, you should consult a lawyer to determine your legal exposure rather than rely on expertise from this board. Many will offer an initial consultation for very nominal fees. Despite the threats, legal action may be unlikely as the auction "contract" may be difficult or nearly impossible to enforce in court.
posted on August 1, 2000 06:03:51 PM new
yisgood didn't you go through a similar situation a few months ago. I seem to remember, your weren't too happy with the final price & gave an excuse to the bidder. Bidder negged you & you negged bidder back because he wasn't sensitive to your excuse. Hey I just seem to recall that posting...I could be wrong.
Well $4k or not, we have fake bidders & fake sellers & sellers who refuse to sell when price isn't right & bidders who refuse to pay when they realize that they paid too much.
And all in all, no one is responsible because its only an auction. No wonder online auction is destined to stagnate & flutter in the end & then we look at ourselves and wonder why. (And like most of us, we blame the next person).
True I don't lose $4k per transaction but I've sold an item before & make very little or none at all. Sigh!! responsibility....we take it for granted & only when it suits us. Good luck in court & remember if you can smoke but never inhale, you can bloody put it up for sale but never intended to sell it. Hey if it works once it will probably work again.
BTW if he negs you, neg the prick back...
'I am negging you back because well who said you could buy the item from me even though you are the final bidder. And here a big red neg for the neg you gave me for not following through'.
Be as sarcastic as you can & give it with a smile. Its only an online auction & like everything on the internet, its isn't really real.
posted on August 1, 2000 06:14:46 PM new
In real life, if an employee mistakenly mispriced a widget $4000 below cost, I doubt that many managers would allow a
customer to pay the price marked and walk away. As a customer I would anticipate an apology and a firm refusal to sell at a
loss. If the manager felt I might be back to spend money, he/she might offer a gift certificate for my "inconvenience" but it
stops right there.
posted on August 2, 2000 07:43:19 AM new
Comic123: Not quite what happened. yahoo froze and no one could bid. I tried to cancel the auction but couldnt. My auctions state that bidders with 0 rating must email me or I cancel their bid. This guy didnt email me but I couldnt cancel his bid. For all these reasons, I considered his bid invalid. Unfortunately, due to a Yahoo glitch I couldnt do anything about it. It was a no reserve auction for a digital camera and it closed well under my cost even though several potential bidders had emailed me and complained that they couldnt bid. i explained to the "winner" what happened. He seemed to accept it. I reposted the auction. He lost. Then he came back a month later and posted a neg on me for the original auction. Incidentally, it is the only neg I ever got in my year and a half of selling.
Yes, I believe that auctions should be taken seriously. But why is it so one-sided? Why are sellers responsible for Yahoo glitches while buyers arent even responsible for their own actions? How many buyers have won your auctions and then said "I didnt mean to bid that high so I wont go through with it"? It's happened to me numerous times. My point is that if bidders are free to renege then so are sellers. If bidders want to consider an auction an enforceable contract, then it has to be enforceable for them, too. I am curious to see if the guy who won this particular auction where there is a $4,000 loss ever backed out of a win. If he did, then his whole claim of enforceability goes out the window.
posted on August 2, 2000 07:44:11 AM new
Thanks all for the concern and feedback although I thank god I live on a different planet from those who would have me take this loss. This is more than a potential hardship. Several $k lost over a stupid TV would victimize my life and family beyond reason. I now have a handle on this and am prepared for whatever this gentleman decides to do. He tells me he is a victim because he needs this TV blah, blah, blah and yet I offered him one delivered to his door at the absolute LOWEST PRICE ANYWHERE beyond a doubt...a price so low that he could shop til he's dead and they will tell him 'it must be stolen, or refurbished'. All he did was keep repeating his name, rank, and serial number as in 'tell me where to send the $8999 (which is the winning bid). No judge or hearing officer in the USA or at least in NJ or FL is sick enough to entertain this mans greed. I also have a history (public domain) of dozens of My listings for this item (plus dozens of other sellers as well) over the last 7 months which clearly establishes the price range of this item. I am not even 5% done so I will wind down. I do not have the time to write and encyclopedia of Internet trading! some lessons learned...it is frightening the people cruising the discussion boards in the eBay community like rubberneckers at a plane crash. It is sad that Yahoo refused to respond to my e-mails PERIOD! They are out of the picture at this point anyway. Thank God I with all my auction and internet marketing experience I am now working as and Internet Marketing Consultant and have a 2nd interview coming up as Customer Service Manager for a full service B2B auction services company. Don't be fooled by my 'high ticket' items...I ain't making money at this. There are so many nice people out there in cyberspace but there are to many meteorites flying around to make it safe anymore (ugh). And not only am I encountering fraud victims often, but in all my business dealings on the web there is so much error due to changing processes and under trained support persons. Even AT&T can't get it together! My time has clearly come to decrease drastically my time commitment to the auction biz and I've been doing just that...***Also I commit to continue contacting DIRECTLY with compassion and sensible support those who are getting beat up by morons on the discussion boards (but only if I have something to say). I don't intend to return to any of these boards at this time. There are to many angry, self-centered bigoted kids out to piss you off!
I think AuctionWatch is great, and this forum is certainly a bit more mature than eBay's
[ edited by larrys5 on Aug 2, 2000 08:26 AM ]
You may think this forum is "certainly a bit more mature than eBay's", but your last posting certainly was not.
Those here who "live on a different planet" and advised you to take the loss were speaking from the position of the HIGHEST INTEGRITY. We DO complain about deadbeat bidders who refuse to honor their bids and pay for their auction winnings. So why shouldn't we also complain about deadbeat SELLERS who refuse to honor low bids and SELL to their lucky winners?????????
As comic123 said, "....no one is responsible because its only an auction. No wonder online auction is destined to stagnate & flutter in the end & then we look at ourselves and wonder why....responsibility....we take it for granted & only when it suits us."
Your bidder may be unreasonable and unbending in his refusal to accept your excuses for not selling to him at his bid price, but FROM HIS POINT OF VIEW he won the auction FAIR AND SQUARE AT HIS BID PRICE, and I'm sure he's asking:
1) Why did you not place a reserve or open at the price you needed to sell for?
2) Why did you not cancel the bids and end the auction WITHOUT A WINNER if you made a mistake in listing it without a reserve?
3) Why did you not email all the bidders and let them know that you couldn't SELL it below $13,000, though you'd forgotten to put a reserve on the auction?
4) Why me???
You should be GLAD that Yahoo refused to respond to your emails, because they just might take the side of the BIDDER in a case like this. Should you GET the job you mentioned as "Customer Service Manager for a full service B2B auction services company", what do you think you would have to ADVISE the seller to do in the same situation FOR THE GOOD OF THE AUCTION'S REPUTATION???????
You said, "And not only am I encountering fraud victims often". Just what do you think the BIDDER thinks of a seller who refuses to sell at the bid price---perhaps FRAUD???
Then you said, "I don't intend to return to any of these boards at this time. There are to many angry, self-centered bigoted kids out to piss you off!"
Are you referring to yourself???
As I said before, you'd better hope this bidder doesn't have a friend or relative who's a lawyer eager to make a name for himself....because this is JUST the kind of case that would make the news.
And the adverse publicity would hurt ALL OF US trying to sell online.
posted on August 3, 2000 08:05:16 AM new
I think we all agree that the seller made an extremely stupid mistake. He had ample opportunity to fix it but didn't. That still doesnt change the facts. A Yahoo auction can not be called a legal contract when it is broken thousands of times a day by bidders hiding behind fake IDs. It can't be called enforceable if it is never enforced. Even Yahoo doesnt try. So I can't see any lawyer winning such a case. But it would be a lot easier to win if this bidder ever reneged on a bid, because then his whole case goes out the window. If bidders are entitled to renege, then sellers are too. I personally wouldnt do it, but I won't accept a double standard either.
posted on August 3, 2000 09:09:07 AM new
Glad this is not my problem to resolve.
While I have absorbed many $4.00 and even $40.00 mistakes, Ive never have had to deal with a potential $4000. loss due to an error.
Not certain what I would do but I expect that the pratical considerations, the nature of this specific marketplace and the numerous mitagating circumstances would result in the buyer not ever watching my TV.
