posted on October 6, 2000 12:12:38 AM new
I am a seller on most of the auctions sites. I take a lot of payments through Paypal. On September 23rd I received a notice to prove a product was shipped to a customer as far back as May 5th. I emailed a copy of the documents as soon as I could research them. I never heard back from them. I figured everything was Okay. On October 1st when a customer attempted to send money to my account they were greeted with a message saying, "the account has been locked". I now have no access to my account including being able to retrieve the money I have in the account. I now have numerous auctions pending the finalization of Paypal transactions. I am losing business (not to mention customer goodwill) every day. I have emailed Paypal over twenty times attempting to settle this matter with absolutely no response. I have used every email address I can find. After looking for several days my attorney found a phone number for them - (877)672-9725. They are not listed anywhere in any directory. When I called that number everyone I talked to said the department that locked the account is completely separate from the main location and no one "is allowed access or phone numbers to that department". This is not the kind of treatment I would expect from a national company dealing with millions of dollars everyday. I literally have no option than to initiate a lawsuit. Fortunately my brother-in-law is an attorney. If anyone else has had this or similar problems with Paypal, please contact me.
posted on October 6, 2000 07:15:06 AM new
No problems here, but MAN, I can't believe this outfit. It would be extremely gratifying if your B-I-L could find a way to lock up PayPal's accounts. I'm sure that you are a business account paying fees and are VERIFIED and all that good stuff. And going back to May to prove shipment - MAN again! (MAN is a replacement for the words I'd like to use.) Good luck to you. As for me, I am no longer promoting PayPal - period. MAN!
[ edited by BigBux on Oct 6, 2000 07:17 AM ]
posted on October 6, 2000 10:37:31 AM new
Hi! I am sorry to hear what has happened to you but unfortunately I am not surprised. I haven't had a problem personally but one doesn't have to look to hard to find many others that have. I have been corresponding by email with several who have had similar problems and would appreciate it if you would post an email address as I would like to pass your statement and email address along to several people I have been corresponding with. Also I am sure it would be helpful to anyone else who reads this and may want to get in touch with you.
posted on October 6, 2000 11:11:40 AM new
Shortly after x.com took over PayPal, my account was locked due "a possible link to a fraudulent account". I also went around in cirlces and could not get a response or even an explanation. When I called them at that time, they also gave me the excuse that the fraud department was not in the same building, but that they were in the process of moving the PayPal offices and when that was complete, the fraud dept WOULD be in the same office where you would be able to talk to them. They also claim that when your account is locked or restricted, that payments CAN still be made, you just can't access it or withdraw it...but if that is the case, there is no reason your buyer should have ever got that message. It looks as if PayPal is not only lying again, but also defaming character again by telling buyers your account has been locked (that in itself implys you have done something wrong and are less than trustworthy). But don't feel too bad, from the posts on these boards an awful lot of accounts are being restricted nowdays, and none of them are able to get a response or a resolution without going through Damon. I have asked why this is, but needless to say, haven't got an answer on that yet either.
posted on October 6, 2000 12:13:58 PM new
Damon, This is just a comment. You can choose to respond to it or not but I do want to get this off of my chest. Why is it that these people can only get results if they contact you? Why should they have to seek out help in a message forum? Is this any way to conduct a business? What about those who don't know that these type of message boards exist? If you wish to respond, these are the questions I would like answers to.
posted on October 6, 2000 12:19:09 PM new
After reading a multitude of posts on this subject in thread after thread after thread, it has become apparent that either PayPal's Fraud Department is non-existant or that it is understaffed or that it is underqualified. It is obvious that something is wrong and they are spinning and spinning, but the spinning is slowing down and the top is beginning to wobble. A major problem could be PayPal's minimum 100 IQ requirement - but isn't this supposed to be 'per person' and not cumulative? Unless or until PayPal gets a handle on this thing to deal with disputes in a TIMELY manner, maybe they'd be better off not locking or freezing anything. People don't like the run-around and that's all that's being offered at the present. Good luck to all who are affected.
posted on October 6, 2000 12:26:16 PM new
Hi azpeggy,
I am out here to make sure that issues that have not been resolved are and that concerns are also expressed surrounding policy and product, as well as to make sure the correct information is out there.
The message forums are excellent places to get user feedback concerning product and policy changes/suggestions.
I don't think it is fair to assume that most issues are not handled correctly from the beginning. Relative to the customer base (4 million), the number of issues is small on the forums, but it is our way of making sure that all user problems are addressed.
posted on October 6, 2000 01:43:06 PM new
C'mon PPD!!!! Are you serious??!!! For every person on these boards with legitimate complaints, there are bound to be hundreds, if not thousands or even 10's of thousands of PayPals "4 million" customers that are having these same problems. Are you suggesting that the individuals that come to these boards with problems are the majority of people with problems? Please tell me I'm reading your post wrong.
You state "I don't think it is fair to assume that most issues are not handled correctly from the beginning". This kind of thinking is probably part of the problem. What exactly is "most" PPD? 60%, 70%, or maybe 51%? Is this statement of yours just another twist on words?
posted on October 6, 2000 01:48:06 PM new
Damon,
I received the email below on 9/22/00. That is the only correspondence I have received from Paypal. Even though I have emailed them at the below address and several others over twenty times. I emailed them copies of the shipping documents. I have called the main number after having to have an attorney find it for me. (Why isn't the phone number displayed on your home page or contacts page or in some other easily accessible location - I think the answer is obvious.) My account is frozen. For over two weeks now I can not get to MY money even though it is much more than the $192.50 in question. This is for a transaction almost five months ago! Unbelievable!
This isn't the first time I have had problems with getting a response back from Paypal. There has been several times that I needed to get a hold of them. I have NEVER received a response back from them. Once a customer wired over $1000 to my account. Paypal showed it coming from her account but it didn't show it going into mine. Obviously we were both frantic about having that much money unaccounted for. We both emailed Paypal for over a week with NO (as in absolutely none) response. We finally figured it out on our own. The customer had accidentally left the period on the end of my email address.
I will appreciate any help you could give me - although I will NEVER use PayEnemy again.
We received a complaint from another PayPal user regarding
merchandise not received or received not-as-described. Under the
guidelines of our Buyer Protection Plan, your account has been
restricted until you provide us with proof of delivery (tracking
number) and the shipping company for the merchandise. Also, let
us know if the merchandise was insured. You may add any
additional comments if necessary. To expedite the process, please
include the dollar amount of the transaction at the beginning of
the subject header followed by your primary email address. Please
respond within 72 hours to [email protected]. We look
forward to your reply.
Please log on to www.PayPal.com <http://www.PayPal.com> and view
our Buyer Protection Guarantee in our Terms of Use. If there are
any further questions, please contact us at [email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>.
Sincerely,
PayPal Account Review Department
PayPal, A Service of X.com
posted on October 6, 2000 02:17:08 PM new
PPD - You are missing the point entirely. You are making it sound that the select few that are posting on these boards about their problems are THE majority of people who are having problems. Don't you realize that the amount of people that are posting here are probably considerably less than 1% of the total?
Damon, it really sounds as if you don't want to face the probable fact that there are MANY, MANY others out there that are having the same problems as the ones on these boards. It should seem obvious to you that this is a VERY BIG problem and is not limited to the people who post here or on other boards.
posted on October 6, 2000 02:27:44 PM new
Sometimes it makes a person wonder which of the three icons we are dealing with when trying to contact PayPal. Is it the one that hears no evil? Or is it the one that sees no evil? Or could it be the one that speaks no evil? Or, heaven forbid, have they mutated into a horrific combination of the three?
posted on October 6, 2000 02:34:37 PM new
Hi nokternl,
I am not avoiding it all. However, as I mentioned, there are many more that do have their problems solved. We try to close the loop on customer issues by whatever means we can.
posted on October 6, 2000 03:13:26 PM new
Clay, Hi! Thank you for posting your email address. I hope Damon is able to help you resolve your problem. I am going to send you an email.
Damon, I am thankful that people having problems who post them on the message board can look to you for help. However, many of these people aren't aware of your presence here and go through a lot of frustration trying to get help or answers to their questions. For the past month I have been reading alot of the posts about PayPal on the message boards. Over on the Ebay boards where you don't post, I have seen others reference you by name and suggest that they go and find you on the AW or OTWA boards and that you will be able to help them. I find this troubling to say the least. Well, it is good advice as it is the only advice they can give since the person with the trouble is having no luck getting anywhere with PayPal. If more information was available on your website perhaps many people wouldn't experience so much frustration before they are provided with answers. Wouldn't it be easier for you and your company to have some kind of forum on PayPal. I certainly don't suggest that you should stop posting on theses boards because right now you are the only hope many people have of getting their problems resolved.
You certainly are right that there is a lot of feedback given on these message boards. Other than the business/personal policy that took over 3 weeks to come up with, what other feedback has resulted in changes to PayPal?
My feedback to you right now is that some type of policy be written up regarding restrictions placed on accounts. This way people will know what to expect, who to contact, and what type of action they need to take to help speed matters along.
The last statement of yours is the one that really upsets me.
"I don't think it is fair to assume that most issues are not handled correctly from the beginning. Relative to the customer base (4 million), the number of issues is small on the forums, but it is our way of making sure that all user problems are addressed."
This type of attitude is where the problem lies and if you believe this you are only certain to continue to lose customers. Just for arguments sake, and if you are correct and most issues handled correctly and the number of issues on the message forums are small in number compared to your customer base of 4 million, it should be considered UNNACEPTABLE that these problems do and continue to occur. These people have entrusted your company with their money. Money they use to pay their bills, feed their families, etc. Some of us live paycheck to paycheck. Not being able to have access to your money is stressful and by not getting an immediate response to what is going on or why only adds to the stress.
So as to my original questions, I would just like to change the first one for clarification and the sake of further argument and expand or comment on my other questions.
1) Why is it that those people can not get help after repeated attempts only get results if they contact you?
2) Why should they have to seek out help in a message forum?
Problems are different than feedback.
3)Is this any way to conduct a business?
You may think it is but I have to disagree.
4)What about those who don't know that these type of message boards exist?
I sold on ebay for a year before I came across OTWA from the honesty.com website and decided to take a look. I believe that many of your users don't know to look for these types of message boards unless they are familiar with them.
Thank you for your response. I closed my account yesterday. Some people might like to but can't because there accounts are restricted. Some may choose to stay. This company should have set policy in place. Some people get emails when there account is closed others find out by surprise. I could go on and on and hate to post when I am this upset because I feel that it may come across more like ranting. I probably should have waited longer but I have to leave for work in just a few minutes. Hope you understand what I am trying to say.
I am glad you enjoy your job and I am sure you get great satisfaction out of helping people but it seems to me that you have to keep going around to different places to put out fires.
posted on October 6, 2000 03:37:39 PM new
HI azpeggy,
I do frequent the Ebay forum as well, but the threads over there are threads that should not be PayPal dominated.
I made the comment based on a customer service perspective. I was the customer service manager for PayPal when we launced and I have answered well over 40,000 or more emails in the months that I have been here. I stick with the customer on their issues wherever, and whenever, possible.I have also worked closely with many of the reps or recruited them.Currently there are over 350 answering emails and phone calls. New policies and procedures are drafted on a regular basis to make sure that the customer contact is done in a timely manner and with the highest quality possible.
I advised that the main goal of going to the threads is to make sure that as many customer scenarios as possible are resolved.This is to get as high of a satisfaction/completion rate as possible.
Accounts can be restricted for:
1. Fraudulent use
2. Reception of fraudulent transactions
3. Spamming
These items do require some research to complete. Item#2 is being worked on so that legitimate accounts receiving a fraudulent transaction are not impacted other than the transaction.
posted on October 6, 2000 03:44:09 PM new
PPD - I personally haven't had any problems from PayPal (other than not receiving emails that others ARE receiving) but please don't think that I don't appreciate what you are doing on these boards. I also realize that the majority of problems are probably solved sufficiently. My concern (and the point I was trying to make) is that if there are this many people making claims against PayPal here on these boards, then there must be a huge number of others having the same problems that don't know about these boards. I would think that this would be a fairly major concern for PayPal and it seems it would warrant PayPals immediate attention.
I recall you stating in another thread (possibly on another board) that the new policies at PayPal was sent to PayPals database of users. Appearantly LOTS of users never received this email. This is just a minor example but I would think it a major concern for PayPal.
The same applies when you have a number of people (from a relatively small group of people) claiming that they are receiving poor customer support from PayPal. It stands to reason that in the overall scheme of things, there is enough people having problems to warrant concern from PayPal. This seems to be an ongoing problem with little attempt to rectify the problem from PayPal. I could be wrong, but it sure looks that way.
I am sure that many people are having their problems solved. I am also sure that there are many who aren't. That is my concern. I thought it might be yours also.
posted on October 6, 2000 03:53:44 PM new
Hi nokternl,
Understood. Part of my other role is to see where we can tighten things up a bit, be they policy related or product related.
The difference here from a customer service contact is that I can view items in writing, which is more qualitative and descriptive in nature and I can engage in conversations with the users to help diffuse concerns or items that are misinterpreted.
Email and board postings can be tough because intent can be lost. I take no offense at any of the comments directed my way or at the company.
posted on October 6, 2000 03:56:38 PM new
PPD - I would further like to add that if as much effort was going on behind the scenes as is going on here (by you) on the publicly viewed boards, then in all likelyhood, there would be far fewer problems all together.
edited to add: No need to respond PPD. Thank you for your attention.
[ edited by nokternl on Oct 6, 2000 03:58 PM ]
posted on October 6, 2000 04:01:44 PM new
paypaldamon:
"6000-10000 emails are answered per day, in addition to 3000+ phone calls."
One of my friends made three of those calls with a question about the $500 limitation and received three different answers. They did, however, try to get their little fingers on his bank account number.
Of course, given PayPal's propensity to tap into the bank accounts with unauthorized withdrawals for those who did, he refused.
My friend is this evening writing out checks to pay for auction items.
posted on October 6, 2000 05:47:03 PM new
"I made the comment based on a customer service perspective."
Damon -
As I see it, that's a big part of the current problem. Many of the recent problems posted on this board relate to locked or restricted accounts which customer service readily admits they have no information about. How many e-mails are answered or phone calls are taken on a daily basis by the fraud prevention department on a daily basis? From the looks of it...NONE! Judging from appearances, the only contact that department has with anyone is sending out "Your account has been restricted" e-mails.
posted on October 6, 2000 09:24:50 PM new"After looking for several days my attorney found a phone number for them"
Sorry you are having troubles, and I hate to add to them, but really need to consider another attorney if a phone number stumps them for several days. If the last tax attorney I used had charged me for looking for a phone number for several days I'd have sued him.
posted on October 7, 2000 12:03:34 AM new
> We received a complaint from another PayPal user regarding
> merchandise not received or received not-as-described. Under the
> guidelines of our Buyer Protection Plan, your account has been
> restricted until you provide us with proof of delivery (tracking
> number) and the shipping company for the merchandise. Also, let
>us know if the merchandise was insured.
It's improper for you to be asking a shipper to provide 'proof of delivery' unless such a document was required at the time payment was agreed to.
A shippers legal responsibility ends when the package is turned over to a bonded carrier for delivery.
All that the law requires is proof of mailing. Even non-specific 'proof' such as a postal reciept showing the date, weight and destination ZIP code will be considered proof unless the value of the item is so high as to make formal 'proof of mailing' a reasonable protective or requested measure.
If a package was not insured is does not mean that the sender is responsible for the item once delivered to a bonded carrier. It simply means you cannot lay against the carrier for loss or damage of the item.
posted on October 7, 2000 05:02:50 AM new
I didn't think this buyer protection plan went into effect until August or there abouts-now it's retroactive to shipments prior to this, when you had not even spelled out what was adequate proof of shipping until about 6 weeks ago ?
posted on October 7, 2000 07:40:07 AM new
> We received a complaint from another PayPal user regarding
> merchandise not received or received not-as-described. Under the
> guidelines of our Buyer Protection Plan, your account has been
> restricted until you provide us with proof of delivery (tracking
> number) and the shipping company for the merchandise. Also, let
>us know if the merchandise was insured.
This is absolutely insane!!! I don't care if they are working on changing their policy to restrict just the amount in question. To think that PayPal EVER locked an ENTIRE account of because of 1 questionable transaction is ludicrous at best.
I can't believe people are going to continue doing business with this company! We all know that packages get lost, stolen or whatever on ocassion. This could happen to ANYONE at ANYTIME. To think that someone's ENTIRE account is locked because 1 person CLAIMS they didn't receive an item or that the item wasn't as described is incomprehensible and unacceptable.
I was going to leave my account at PayPal open and just not advertise the fact that I accept PayPal but these occurrences seem to be snowballing and I'm getting out while the getting is good. I hate to see any business go under, but that certainly seems to be the path that PayPal is headed for.
posted on October 7, 2000 08:12:17 AM new
dodge98ram
e-mail from PayPal ...
"We received a complaint from another PayPal user regarding merchandise not received or received not-as-described. Under the guidelines of our Buyer Protection Plan, your account has been restricted until you provide us with proof of delivery (tracking number) and the shipping company for the merchandise. Also, let us know if the merchandise was insured. You may add any
additional comments if necessary. To expedite the process, please include the dollar amount of the transaction at the beginning of the subject header followed by your primary email address. Please respond within 72 hours to [email protected]. We look forward to your reply.
A transaction date of 05-May-2000 and PayPal forwards the complaint to you on 22-September-2000. The little "days between calculator" says that 140 days.
What's the time limit imposed by credit card companies on chargebacks? 60 days?
Items bought on eBay include $200 insurance less a $25 deductible provided the claim is filed within 60 days.
Did the buyer submit a claim to eBay's insurance carrier within 60 days? If not, why not? Or did the buyer submit claims to eBay *and* PayPal in order to collect twice?
Seems that PayPal has exposed their "verified sellers" to substantial risks -- an infinite time limit on claims for non-delivery and allowing buyers to make multiple claims on a single transaction.
So what are the advantages of being a "verified seller" anyway?
You mean if you don't insure or set up that confirmation of delivery for every shipment that goes to a PayPal payer they freeze your entire account if it gets lost or delayed in the mail?
I'd have to charge a 15 dollar handling fee for every package I did that for. I can't afford to go to the post office and spend that kind of time on shipping.
Is this only for verified sellers? or verified buyers?
If so - hey, no verified buyers will be allowed to use PayPal with me.
If the last tax attorney I used had charged me for looking for a phone number for several days I'd have sued him.