posted on August 4, 2001 08:55:26 PMBoth eBay and Yahoo have experienced the same trend of lost listing's during times of change. I'd really like to see some eBay and Yahoo numbers. Anyone got anything handy?
Seeing as how you're the one who is telling us that their listing numbers are falling too, perhaps you might want to take on this task ...
posted on August 4, 2001 08:57:41 PM
I think eBay's numbers rarely go down because of a "policy change". They are the only real venue where a seller has a chance to sell an item with multiple bids and decent viewing traffic. The boycotts and such have only a very tiny effect on eBay. The sellers have no choice other than semi-retirement at the free sites.
posted on August 4, 2001 10:12:31 PM
I agree with you bidsbids, but I'd still like to see the numbers. It seems dim is unable to focus on anything else since I
stated I don't read her numbers. It's true, I skim right over the figures because they mean absolutely nothing to me.
Perhaps I've lost interest due to the frequency of the reports, or have realized they are of no value when tallied and presented many times daily. Maybe I have determined that reading the numbers once a week will tell me all I need to know statistically.
That is not to say that everyone feels as I do, but I still would lay odds that I'm not the only one who skims the numbers. I prefer to read what is said with the numbers.
The text is often more revealing than the figures.
posted on August 5, 2001 12:06:16 AM
gettalife cuff
"Both eBay and Yahoo have experienced the same trend of lost listing's during times of change."
eBay made numerous policy changes the past months sellers are against yet their current total of 5.51 million listings are still as high as January. The low for the year was toward the end of June, no coincidence they posted a free listing day to recover. The sellers they can't lure back with such a promotion they simply replace with new ones.
They just released their 2nd Q report showing 4.4 million new users registered and 2.25 billion in total auction sales just between April and June. Staggering figures, if only some site could figure out how to draw 1/100th of their user base we might actually have some alternative some day.
Yahoo dropped from 2.8 million listings in Jan to around 200,000 for the past several months. But their change was severe, from 0 to .20- $2.25 per ad without enhancements and regardless of a sale. No site could realistically be expected to rebound from such a drastic change.
Even when they had free listings sports cards made up 22% and everything else 78% of their auction total.
posted on August 5, 2001 06:13:48 AM
[AuctionWatch has prohibited me from posting the following report in an <auctionsite - date> subject line format. This report would have been Bidville listings - 05-Aug-2001.]
Here's some recent datapoints. The order is date, total listings, sportscards listings and percentage of total listings, and listings in all other categories.
A Premier or Premier Plus membership is required to use Bidville's image hosting (in excess of twenty), as announced on July 27 and effective August 1. For those without a Premier or Premier Plus membership, Bidville will begin deleting their images September 1.
posted on August 5, 2001 06:28:56 AM
GettaLife >
I agree with you bidsbids, but I'd still like to see the numbers.
There is nothing to prevent anyone from compiling statistics for Bidville or any other auctionsite. If anyone has an interest in the trends, go to it.
It seems dim is unable to focus on anything else since I stated I don't read her numbers. It's true, I skim right over the figures because they mean absolutely nothing to me.
Believe me, dimview is certainly able to "focus," particularly the implications of the two underlying trends ... increasing sportscards and decreasing "all other categories" listings at Bidville.
Perhaps I've lost interest due to the frequency of the reports, or have realized they are of no value when tallied and presented many times daily. Maybe I have determined that reading the numbers once a week will tell me all I need to know statistically.
That is not to say that everyone feels as I do, but I still would lay odds that I'm not the only one who skims the numbers. I prefer to read what is said with the numbers. The text is often more revealing than the figures.
Yes, you're right. Possibly, probably, maybe.
uptoolate,
Thanks for the concise explanation of eBay's and Yahoo!'s listings. It certainly put the current "situation" into perspective.
Time permitting, and if this thread is still open, I'll provide the explanation you asked for concerning my reasons for tabulating sportscards as a percentage of all auctions.
Since this thread is still open, I would appreciate an answer to my questions.
posted on August 5, 2001 10:33:29 AM
an update ...
08-04 696,019 375,634 (54.0%) 320,385
08-05 696,138 375,866 (54.0%) 320,272 @ 9:05 AM ET
08-05 696,248 376,377 (54.1%) 319,871 @ 1:30 PM ET
stavecards, in the now locked thread >
Dimview,
In your posts in the last month or so, you have made quite a few references to the large % of sportcards for sale on Bidville. I am trying to understand the point or theory that you are trying to state. The opinion I have formed is that you see this as a "negative" for Bidville. Is my opinion correct? If so, why do you believe it is a "negative"? If I am wrong in my opinion, what point or theory are you trying to make? I am being serious with this question, and not looking to start a flame.
A number of folks, including myself, noticed that the percentage of sportscards to "all other categories" listings was disproportinately higher at Bidville than at all the other fee-based and free auctionsites. I found that, in and of itself, quite interesting and worth looking at more closely. I searched the AuctionWatch archives for my first mentions of the actual numbers, which was several weeks ago and form the basis for my current statistics reports.
Auction sellers of sportscards have themselves pointed out that the "common" cards take time (I read that at relist, after relist, after relist) for a buyer to come along, so it follows that they attract few pageviews and even few bidders, and have a minimal contribution to the overall sell-through rate.
Is that a positive? Or a negative?
Now "image hosting" has become part of the equation.
Sportcards sellers are not likely to take the time to scan their "common" cards, so there listings only include descriptions. They are not effected by the image hosting requirements.
The "all other categories" sellers, however, are keenly aware of the importance of an image in attracting bids. Given the 1% sell-through rate, the average seller must list lots of items for minimal sales.
Using the 20 free images with 20 listings, on average, results in 0.2 sales.
Is that a positive? Or a negative?
Right now Bidville has 54% (and increasing) sportcards listings, with little contribution to the sell-through rate, and 46% (and declining) "all other categories" listings, which have produced most of the sales reflected in the sell-through rate.
That would suggest no improvement in the sell-through rate.
Is that a positive? Or a negative?
Now let's throw Bidville's revenue sources into the equation.
Bidville has two sources of revenue: Advertisement banner revenue and the sale of features including Premier and Premier Plus memberships.
Since Bidville is a few pageviews environment it follows that this is an insignificant revenue stream, and the average auction seller does not hold a Premier or Premier Plus membership, and experiences a 1% sell-through rate, they likely do not even generate $5/month (or $10/month) in sales and isn't likely to sign-up for an enhanced membership.
(As a side note, I think the video camera pop-ups are only going exasperate the situation, as alot of folks clicking around Bidville are going to click that back button fast when they start seeing one, two, three, four, five or more of those pop-ups on their screen.)
That again suggests no improvement in the sell-through rate.
posted on August 5, 2001 12:04:46 PM
Dim, I think the statement about sportscard sellers not selling many items is totally wrong. They sell a LOT of cards and the 'other items' sellers are the ones not selling near as many items. Ask the card sellers and you will hear responses like 1,500 cards sold in 6 months but ask a book seller and you'll hear 20 books sold in 6 months. The sportscard sellers are not getting depressed and leaving but rather the 'other items' sellers.
Thanks for your response. You have some good points, but I disagree with your opinions on some of them.
First, please let me give a short summary of the sports card market. I believe that it is very different from most other collectibles. I am going to assume that you know little about the sports card market since you don't sell them (if I am wrong, I apologize). First, very few dealers sell singly what we call "commons". This term is applied to base cards of players that are not stars and the majority of these only book from 10 to 25 cents. Usually these are sold in lots. One big difference from other collectibles is the sheer number of different available items. I don't know the exact number, but there are probably at least 50,000 different cards issued each year. Now these range from some cards of which only one is made (1 of 1's) to others which are massed produced in the hundreds of thousands. This is why you see sportcard dealers with hundreds or thousands of listings. Also if you look at most sportscard dealers with large listings, they will have cards for sale in a wide range of prices. Why you cover the spectrum is to satisfy your buyers and attract multiple or repeat purchases. Most collectors collect everything from commons to expensive cards, but usually have narrow collecting aims, such as one player , one team, or a few particular brands. It takes a large number of listings therefore to attract a large number of buyers due to the specialization.
The following are my responses to your opinions.
Your statement - A number of folks, including myself, noticed that the percentage of sportscards to "all other categories" listings was disproportinately higher at Bidville than at all the other fee-based and free auctionsites.
Yes, the % is much higher at Bidville than at any other auction site that I know (except Beckett which is totally sports memorabilia). I believe that this can be attributed to Bidville starting at the same time that Yahoo started charging listing fees. Since sports cards went from over 500,000 to 25,000 at Yahoo, the listings went somewhere. Since there was a lot of discussion among the Yahoo sports card dealers at that time about Bidville, I believe a large % of those listings went to Bidville.
However I do not see this as a problem. Though the % is high, there are still a large number of non-sport listings at Bidville. You can see from your own numbers that these are over 300,000 non-sport listings at Bidville. Since I do not know of another site (other than Ebay) with 300,000 total auction listings, that would mean that Bidville has more non-sport listings than any other site. If this is incorrect, please correct me. Therefore the sport card listings are not keeping away other types of listings. Therefore I don’t see the % as a negative or a positive, just an oddity.
Your statement - Auction sellers of sportscards have themselves pointed out that the "common" cards take time (I read that at relist, after relist, after relist) for a buyer to come along, so it follows that they attract few pageviews and even few bidders, and have a minimal contribution to the overall sell-through rate.
I think the logic behind this statement shows your lack of familiarity with the sports card market. I have tried to address some facts about the card market in my first paragraph. To fully explain would probably take a page by itself. The fact is that more than just common sportscards are listed at Bidville. While I do not know if the sell-through rate of sports cards is less or more than the general rate at Bidville, I do believe from the numbers sold by several dealers with which I am familiar would indicate that it is not minimal. Also as a reference, see Bidsbids post above.
Your statement - Sportcards sellers are not likely to take the time to scan their "common" cards, so there listings only include descriptions. They are not effected by the image hosting requirements.
Many sportscard sellers do scan their cards. While it may not be as great as the % of listings with pictures as some other categories, it is not an insignificant % of sports card listings that are run with a picture of the card. They definitely would be affected by the hosting requirements as the average sports card seller has signficantly more listings than in most other categories.
Your statement - Right now Bidville has 54% (and increasing) sportcards listings, with little contribution to the sell-through rate, and 46% (and declining) "all other categories" listings, which have produced most of the sales reflected in the sell-through rate. That would suggest no improvement in the sell-through rate.
For someone who prides themselves on accurate statistics, I cannot believe that you would post such a conclusion without any objective data for support. If you can provide objective data to support your conclusion, please post those numbers. Please remember that many cards are sold with the Take It Price so scanning of listings for bids may not be valid.
The rest of your statements concern the site in general and are outside the scope of my questions so I will not address those.
posted on August 6, 2001 07:04:24 AM
[AuctionWatch has prohibited me from posting the following report in an <auctionsite - date> subject line format. This report would have been Bidville listings - 06-Aug-2001.]
Here's some recent datapoints. The order is date, total listings, sportscards listings and percentage of total listings, and listings in all other categories.
A Premier or Premier Plus membership is required to use Bidville's image hosting (in excess of twenty), as announced on July 27 and effective August 1. For those without a Premier or Premier Plus membership, Bidville will begin deleting their images September 1.
posted on August 6, 2001 08:12:45 AM
stavecards ... I notice that a BV member has suggested opening up a trading area on Bidville, and he seems to getting more nays than yays.
To me, this would be an excellent idea for the majority of BV's members. When you look at who is buying and selling (the sportscard fans) the bulk of merchandise (sports cards), it's basically a trading venue anyway.
I need you to further explain your statement about the sportscard section being a trading section in reality. I just don't understand the point that you are trying to make.
Couple of opinions on a trading area on Bidville which wouldn't get a favorable vote from me. The responses that I have read have been mostly favorable, but I have to admit that I haven't been reading all of the posts in the last few days. However I don't know if the message boards really reflect the opinions of the majority of members. Usually you mostly get the supporters of an idea posting and the majority of the constant posters will support almost anything.
Now why I don't support a trading area. First, I have been selling on the net for about six years. During that time, I have seen more posted disputes arise from trades than from bad purchases. I can foresee the Bidville message boards becoming a bigger battleground if they have a formal trading area.
Second, I think a formal trading area would further reinforce many people's opinion that Bidville is a "flea market" or "dumping ground". I think many serious sellers would leave Bidville if they start receiving requests to trade rather than complete an actual purchase. I have seen a couple of active message board areas "die" when buyers started to want to trade rather than buy. Most sellers left and then the quality of product on the board dropped significantly. It is not that I am opposed to trading, but I don't believe that an auction site should be encouraging the practice. You will have the sellers wanting to sell, and the buyers wanting to trade, and lot of hard feelings resulting. I know if this became the norm, I would have to seriously consider leaving.
posted on August 6, 2001 09:27:55 AM
It seems to me a lot of time is spent at the BidVille boards gathering information to run back to AW with. A person who requests that their membership be ended, but continues to hang out there (in the shadows) does not lend credibility to their statements in my view. No offense... It's just my opinion.
BidVille wisely chose to make changes during the slow season. The same cannot be said about the Big Guys, who have absolutely no concern with the impact their decisions have on the Seller's already paying to use their site. A good case in point would be when Yahoo instituted mandatory listing fee's to Seller's at the same time new Postal Rates came into play.
I believe BidVille has what it takes to survive because they have demonstrated time and again that they do care not only about the success of BidVille, but in addressing the wants and needs of their members. BV isn't going away, and the numbers are holding steady unless you examine them too closely. Just like the stock market it is unwise to watch the ticker moment by moment as you will worry yourself to death.
If BidVille dominates the sport card field will it work against them? I don't think so. How could it? Don't you think it may be possible that those same sport card enthusiasts might on occasion buy something else, or tell their friends and family about BidVille? There are many, many great items and collectibles to browse at BV. Come on over and take a real look.
posted on August 6, 2001 09:45:19 AM
Stavecards, I agree.
Cuff, I hope you are right.
My consern is that (and the numbers prove it so far) listings will fall in the other catagories as the Sports card catagorie goes up. Sports card sellers since they have to pay to host their pictures will and you cant blame them list like crazey as the other catagories fall. I have nothing agains cards I collect them but it would help if bidville has more then cards. Until listings start comeing up in the other catagories the worst is not over. As for swapping the sellers that want to let them but I hope bidville does not turn the site into a swap meet I am there to make green backs not trade. Just my opinion. Have a nice buying/selling day.
posted on August 6, 2001 10:15:57 AM
stavecards ...I need you to further explain your statement about the sportscard section being a trading section in reality. I just don't understand the point that you are trying to make.
The point I am trying to make, and I could very well be wrong, is that it seems as though the majority of sports cards being sold are being purchased by other sports cards sellers. I'm not quite as number-anal as others so I cannot/will not even try to post stats, but what I perceive over there is, in effect, "I'll give you a buck for your Gretzky rookie card and you give me a buck for my Orr rookie card". Why not just trade the cards and leave the money part out of it?
This also applies to people like myself who collect videotapes. What purpose does it serve when I spend $5.00 to buy a movie I want and the seller sends me $5.00 for one s/he wants from my collection?
However I don't know if the message boards really reflect the opinions of the majority of members.
They very much don't! I have no idea how many members Bidville has, but I suspect it's substantially more than the 25 or 30 folks who regularily visit the boards.
Usually you mostly get the supporters of an idea posting and the majority of the constant posters will support almost anything.
Spot On!!
Now why I don't support a trading area ...
I have been trading internationally (worldwide, not just across the Canada/USA border since before the advent of the internet or even FAX technology. I had to arrange trades via snail mail and long distance telephone calls (the young pups of today who post a neg when they don't get their money within 72 hours would have never survived in the "good old days"!). There will always be bad traders. Fortunately, most of us who have been trading for awhile alert each other about these bad ones and the arguments are kept to a minimum. We all still have the opportunity to back out of situations that may lead to an argument or bad feelings. With no money involved, a trade that goes sour doesn't hurt anyone.
I do see your point about trying to do this on Bidville though - seems many folks there will argue about anything!
I think a formal trading area would further reinforce many people's opinion that Bidville is a "flea market" or "dumping ground".
No disrespect intended, but if the shoe fits ...
I don't think Bidville should entertain a trading board (I cannot share my years of experience with them on this though) ... I just think there is a perception that it already exists over there (with the sports cards).
posted on August 6, 2001 10:50:26 AM
GettaLife Cuff >
I believe BidVille has what it takes to survive because they have demonstrated time and again that they do care not only about the success of BidVille, but in addressing the wants and needs of their members.
I want to comment further on your reply, but for now let me single out this statement.
So Bidville cares about the success of the auctionsite?
Let me specifically ask you about the "Tiny Wireless Video Camera" pop-ups that continuously intrude on anyone navigating the Bidville auctionsite.
It has been reported that The ubiquitous online ads for X10's tiny camera attracted 28 million unique visitors in May 2001, but 73 percent of those unique visitors left the site within 20 seconds, while only a fraction more stayed for 3 minutes or longer. http://www.auctionwatch.com/awdaily/dailynews/july01/3-073001.html
So if folks are thoroughly disgusted with the pop-ups, do you REALLY believe they simply click X the pop-ups, move on to another page and click X the pop-ups, over and over again?
I don't. I think they click X the pop-ups and leave Bidville in favor of other auctions sites with less visual pollution.
let me tack on a midday update ...
08-05 696,318 376,539 (54.1%) 319,779
08-06 695,711 375,849 (54.0%) 319,862 @ 10:00 AM ET
08-06 695,646 375,958 (54.0%) 319,688 @ 2:15 PM ET
posted on August 6, 2001 12:28:56 PM
GettaLife Cuff >
I believe BidVille has what it takes to survive because they have demonstrated time and again that they do care not only about the success of BidVille, but in addressing the wants and needs of their members.
I want to comment further on your reply, but for now let me single out this statement.
So Bidville cares about the success of the auctionsite?
Let me specifically ask you about the "Tiny Wireless Video Camera" pop-ups that continuously intrude on anyone navigating the Bidville auctionsite.
It has been reported that The ubiquitous online ads for X10's tiny camera attracted 28 million unique visitors in May 2001, but 73 percent of those unique visitors left the site within 20 seconds, while only a fraction more stayed for 3 minutes or longer. http://www.auctionwatch.com/awdaily/dailynews/july01/3-073001.html
So if folks are thoroughly disgusted with the pop-ups, do you REALLY believe they simply click X the pop-ups, move on to another page and click X the pop-ups, over and over again?
I don't. I think they click X the pop-ups and leave Bidville in favor of other auctions sites with less visual pollution.
WHAT EFFECT WILL THE INCESSANT POP-UPS HAVE ON THIS WEEK'S OVERALL STATISTICS, INCLUDING THE SELL-THROUGH RATE.
posted on August 6, 2001 01:59:25 PM
Okay... if you insist on going off topic at least it will confine you to this thread.
Popups are a problem at many sites. Being that this has only just started occuring at BidVille I assume it's being looked into. BidVille is very good in matters affecting the site. Not that it matters, but you place yourself in a precarious position when you jump the gun and start slinging the mud too early in the game, this aside from the fact that it's the slow season at the auctions... a good time to iron out existing or new problems.
I recently visited a popular download site and was suddenly faced with multiple popups. The popups were loaded with java-components that actually changed my home page to a porn site. As soon as I attempted to navigate the site I'd get another ten popups. I was stuck in a porn loop and all I wanted to do was download a program. When I'd close and restart my browser, I'd end up at the porn site with popups flying at me at an incredibly ridiculous speed. I did not blame the site even though I'd spent approximately 30 minutes fighting the pop-ups. They probably had no idea that their visitors were being abused in this manner.
The advances in technology are speedy fast and although there are programs such as Ad-Aware that locate and delete these components they still get you as soon as you log back on. There are many good ad-killing programs that block these intrusions, but some pop-ups are beginning to get past them.
It's happening all over the net, not just BidVille. In time I think this kind of intrusion into the registry of your machine will be illegal... at least I hope so, but until that happens I believe this problem is going to exist, not specifically at BidVille but again all over the net
And so I ask you... being that this has only been happening at BidVille a short time would it not be best to wait and see what's going to happen?
posted on August 6, 2001 02:12:14 PM
GettaLife Cuff >
Popups are a problem at many sites. Being that this has only just started occuring at BidVille I assume it's being looked into. BidVille is very good in matters affecting the site. Not that it matters, but you place yourself in a precarious position when you jump the gun and start slinging the mud too early in the game, this aside from the fact that it's the slow season at the auctions... a good time to iron out existing or new problems.
FYI, pop-ups do not *just*, well, pop-up. They launch because the site owner has included the javascript for launching them in their source code. In this case, the pop-ups launched because Bidville included the source code for them on their webpages.
Interestingly enough, this is now a moot point since Bidville has apparently removed the pop-up launching source code from their webpages.
posted on August 6, 2001 02:42:34 PM
Right on! Now they can use whatever portion of that 20% advertising budget wasted on the popups on some real advertising!
It'll be interesting to see which route they choose
posted on August 6, 2001 02:46:05 PM
Cuff >
It's no surprise that BidVille took care of the problem to me. It was an expected turn of events.
There's still the problem of 99 relists and, beginning in just over three weeks, there will be the problem of auction listings without pictures due to the deletion of images because an auction seller has decided against paying $5/month or $10/month for a Premier or Premier Plus membership, respectively.
Any insights as to how Bidville will take care of *those* problems, since their resolution might also be an expected turn of events?
