mybiddness
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posted on December 8, 2001 08:19:38 PM
We've got a 1 1/2 year old dog, Pheobe who is 1/2 pit bull and 1/2 rat terrier. She's been a fabulous pet and is very protective of our family. She minds most of the time but lately we've had a couple of incidents that cause me to really worry about what she might be capable of doing.
She seems to have no tolerance whatsoever for strangers. Because of her aggressive behavior we always put her in a utility area with a baby gate before we answer the front door. Within the last few months she seems to be becoming more and more aggressive and a couple times lately I was sure she was going to beat the gate down to get to the person... she didn't but she did manage to scare the daylights out of a few visitors. Yesterday she slipped out the front door as my husband was going outside. A neighbor was in his yard across the street and she went after him. Normally she will stop when my husband tells her to but she didn't this time - she seemed completely oblivious to him and just kept going. Fortunately, my husband raced out right behind her and snatched her up off of the ground by the collar just as she seemed ready to attack the neighbor. If she hadn't hesitated I don't think he would have caught her in time.
She's never been aggressive toward our family or toward our other pets. In fact she's very affectionate toward us all. But, I'm scared to death that she's going to eventually attack someone.
I don't know what to do about her. I asked our vet if there were some meds to give her to calm her down. But, she's never been aggressive around him so I don't think he understands just how far she goes. He said he wouldn't recommend anything but to see if she would grow out of it. IMO, this is her nature and not something she would necessarily grow out of and I don't want to be responsible for what she may do... but, I don't know what to do about it.
Not paranoid anywhere else but here!
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saabsister
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posted on December 8, 2001 08:51:43 PM
Mybiddness, ask another vet or dog trainer for advice. I had a similar dog and he definitely didn't grow out of it. In fact, he became more aggressive as he got older. He was fine with us and with a few of my relatives but I couldn't trust him otherwise.
When we got him, he was just a pup (Border Collie mix). But by the time he was about six months old he was showing signs of being aggressive. Because we were moving to a rather isolated spot without many neighbors at home during the day, my husband didn't want to train the aggression out of him. I saw him nip at two people - luckily he didn't connect because one of us was there to grab him. Once a girlfriend came to the front door and startled him when she knocked. He broke the glass in the door lunging after her. Luckily neither she nor he was hurt. I will never let a dog go untrained again not only for the safety of others but also the inconvenience of having to put him in another room when we had visitors. If your vet doesn't take your concerns seriously, ask someone else.
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krs
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posted on December 8, 2001 08:54:05 PM
She should be put down. The aggression is an innate instinctive temperarent characteristic that can't be trained out of her, nor will she 'grow out' of it. In fact, she's grown into it and is only now an adult. If you think back, those characteristic behaviors have probably been there longer than you now say but were either not recognized or were dismissed as puppy stuff.
It's a hard thing, but better to do it now than after a tragedy occurs.
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stusi
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posted on December 8, 2001 09:00:16 PM
Short of giving her Valium 24 hours a day, there is probably nothing you can do medically. A professional trainer could advise you if anything can be done to make her less agressive, but it is unlikely. I am a bit surprised the Vet thinks she may grow out of it, as it seems to be well beyond playfulness. Many dogs are victims of inbreeding that cause mental defects leading to hostile behavior. IMHO you should not assume that she will not turn on your family or other pets as there is a relatively high incidence of Pits turning on small children or small pets.
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rawbunzel
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posted on December 8, 2001 09:10:55 PM
Is she altered? Sometimes that helps. There's always Prozac. My sister had a dog that was on prozac for aggressive behavior tword her other dogs. It helped for awhile but then she had to have the dog put down when it attacked and nearly killed one of her other dogs. Doesn't help much does it? I hate the thought of having to put a dog down that is young and in good health so really I would try a dog trainer and see if she can be helped that way.
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mybiddness
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posted on December 8, 2001 09:19:59 PM
The fact that she's part pit has been a factor in my concerns. The hardest part of considering putting her down is because she is so sweet natured and loyal to our family. But, I know my 12 year old son well enough to know that if she ever got into a fight he wouldn't be able to resist jumping into the middle of it and then she could turn on him too. They're buddies - but when she goes into this overly aggressive stance she really seems oblivious to everything else. When she's keying in on someone she's not barking in her normal "voice." It's a very gutteral and frankly ferocious sound. It scarey as hell to hear. I told my husband that I think in those moments she is in her own "zone" and doesn't even know us anymore.
He took her to search/rescue training several times as a pup. Even then she was so aggressive toward the other dogs that we decided not to pursue her training in that area. Otherwise, she minds well enough to only require hand signals 90% of the time and is an extremely sweet natured dog. So, I'm not sure a trainer would help. She's very eager to please us when she's not in that attack mode.
I know we're likely going to have no choice but to put her down. As much as I don't want to see it - she's getting worse instead of better. I had thought about finding a single person in the country with no children or other pets. Someone that understood her behavior and could give her companionship that she craves but have her more isolated from other people. It would be time consuming to do that but more importantly, I'd always wonder if she didn't eventually attack someone.
Not paranoid anywhere else but here!
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mybiddness
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posted on December 8, 2001 09:24:45 PM
Robin Yes, we had her altered at around 6 months. She gets along surprisingly well with our smaller inside dog. But, Abbey (the little one) can get yappy with her from time to time. It wouldn't take much of an effort for Pheobe to hurt her - but she hasn't. I know, that doesn't mean she wouldn't -
Not paranoid anywhere else but here!
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kcpick4u
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posted on December 8, 2001 09:32:36 PM
You might consider trying a shock collar as a last ditch effort in lieu of putting the dog to sleep! I knew of a individual that owned a very large wolf hybrid that was trying to knock down domestic livestock and was cured with a shock collar!
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stusi
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posted on December 8, 2001 09:42:39 PM
The standard shock collars are only good if the dog barks. If she were to attack without first barking it would be useless. If there were a remote controlled device you would still have to first see the dog attack.
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mybiddness
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posted on December 8, 2001 09:43:21 PM
This sounds ridiculous but I honestly think I'd rather put her down than subject her to a shock collar. And, I do think it's instinctive as KRS said. So, I'm not sure that even something like that would permanently stop that kind of instinct. The problem is that it only takes once and with her jaws I'm sure she could kill a person or animal once she decided to... even a large, strong person.
I don't know... I'm just thinking out loud. If I decide this has to be done, I'll be the one to have to do it. As much as I love her my husband is a lot more bonded and attached to her than I am. He'd be willing to do it - but I wouldn't want him to have to go through it. I can't imagine telling my kids. If it happens I may just tell them that she must have run away... no, that wouldn't be right. But, I can't imagine telling them that we had to have her put down. Especially my son.
Not paranoid anywhere else but here!
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kcpick4u
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posted on December 8, 2001 09:51:47 PM
Consider that if a dog's instinct is not manageable to some degree they would never have became domesticated.
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rawbunzel
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posted on December 8, 2001 09:53:48 PM
Shock collars don't hurt them from what I have heard. I have had Staffordshire Bull Terriers for years , they are like small pit bulls but better temperments and even some of them go bad. Same powerful jaws, 200 lbs pressure per sq. inch or some such thing. They play rough and can be hard to handle. The one I have now is real good natured but is afraid of other dogs when we go for walks. She is great with my other dogs and would not hurt them. THey are Chihuahuas and pick at her like gnats...I am suprised she doesn't eat them for a snack. 
Anyway, I know what you mean about being able to stop her if she was to get into a fight or attack someone. They are powerful, powerful dogs. Is there anyway you can keep her from going out where strangers are? As in keeping her in your yard? Keeping her muzzled when she might get out?
I would hate to have to make the decision you may have to make. It is the hardest thing to put down a healthy dog.I couldn't do it.
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mybiddness
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posted on December 8, 2001 10:07:18 PM
I thought the collars hurt? Maybe I should look into it. But, it seems if they didn't hurt then they wouldn't stop them?
She's mostly an indoor dog but spends some time in the back yard too. As a rule she's shown no interest in running out the front door... I don't know why she did yesterday. One day last week the electric guy went into the back to read the meter. We've left instructions for them to come to our door in case she's out. We usually keep the gates locked but someone didn't lock it back. Anyway, I looked up and she was just enjoying his company running along beside him like he was her best friend. So, she's very unpredictable. The other day I thought she was ready to literally kill the fed ex guy.
I'll have to think about the idea of being able to break her instincts. I've always assumed that certain instincts couldn't be changed but I'll talk to some more vets and dog trainers. Our dog trainer for the search team actually mentioned the shock collar idea but he didn't seem to be very sure that it would guarantee anything - and that's the problem.
Not paranoid anywhere else but here!
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kcpick4u
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posted on December 8, 2001 10:17:06 PM
Yes, they do hurt, that is the method to modify the behavior. They seek pleasure over pain just as we do.
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rawbunzel
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posted on December 8, 2001 10:20:32 PM
I didn't think they actually hurt! Ouch! I heard it was more like a jolt not real pain.
Guess I'd have to strap one on and try it out to know for sure.
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mybiddness
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posted on December 8, 2001 10:22:27 PM
Was the wolf hybrid aggressive in general or just toward the livestock? Maybe I could find someone in my area who breeds the more aggressive dogs and ask their recommendations. I've had a lot of dogs in my lifetime but never one that was anywhere near this aggressive. I think it's my own instinct that is leaping to action here... protecting myself and my family.
Not paranoid anywhere else but here!
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kcpick4u
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posted on December 8, 2001 10:28:12 PM
Some collars are ajustable as to the amount of shock allowing you to adjust to the level that produces the desired results. Some dogs require more shock than others and some only require a small shock to remind them.
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rawbunzel
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posted on December 8, 2001 10:28:38 PM
Does your dog understand who the top dogs are at your house? Mine always know that we humans are the top dogs. That means you always go in and out of the doors first. You always eat first. Think like a pack . That's how you have to act. It does help keep dogs in their place and that might help her listen when she gets crazy.
Don't know much about wolf hybrids except that they can be unstable.But then so are Chows.
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kcpick4u
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posted on December 8, 2001 10:38:56 PM
I don't know if the dog was aggressive towards people or not. The few times I had seen it running loose it really had no concern for people.
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mybiddness
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posted on December 8, 2001 10:46:08 PM
That's what's so puzzling about her behavior. She definitely takes her "place" behind the family members. It's a strange contradiction. Most of the time we don't even have to raise our voices to get her attention. My husband can literally just point to the ground and she immediately sits. If he puts his hand flat she'll lay down. She minds for me but I usually have to give the commands out loud. Her usual good behavior is why it's so hard to understand how she can go so far in the other direction. When he called her back yesterday she just kept running. But, she did "kind of" stop before she reached the neighbor... probably because my husband was yelling at her. Still, it was such a close call.
I'll have to talk to some people that have used the collars. I had no idea you could adjust them. There's a lot to think about.
Not paranoid anywhere else but here!
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kcpick4u
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posted on December 8, 2001 10:56:46 PM
Some dogs respond well some don't, however, it is worth a try! good luck!
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twinsoft
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posted on December 8, 2001 11:03:37 PM
In California last year, several children were killed by pit bulls. One recently got his face chewed off. Since the dog is known to you to be vicious, you would be legally liable for any damage. Putting down a family pet is very difficult. But don't wait until it is too late. A "baby gate" won't hold that dog, and next time your husband might not be there to catch it.
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hcross
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posted on December 9, 2001 12:20:44 AM
My parents have a whole herd of Rat Terriers who are biters. They are all good natured with family, but if someone knocks on the door, they yap and howl like you would not believe. Once that person gets in, the dogs are fine. If they get worked up enough they will knock you down to get out the door to get whoever is standing there.
They are little dogs and don't inflict much damage, but they have been in prison several times over the years. My brother has 3, and I have 1 of them, they are all like that, I think it is something in their nature. Let me tell you, as it goes on, it only gets worse. Yours must be pretty big, my Petey only weighs about 6-7 pounds. Good luck.
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snowyegret
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posted on December 9, 2001 01:44:13 AM
mybiddness, Phoebe is an agressive dog that is having horrendous breaks in her training that need to be addressed immediately.
Ask yourself, would she attack people without physical restraint?
If the answer was yes about any of my dogs, I would put him or her down. Can you imagine her as a feral dog out in the country? We used to have feral dog packs where I lived outside of Austin. Not good.
She won't "grow out of it."
You have the right to an informed opinion
-Harlan Ellison
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krs
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posted on December 9, 2001 02:31:55 AM
Pheobe must die.
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hjw
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posted on December 9, 2001 07:04:38 AM
I've owned several breeds of dogs...mixed breed, Cocker Spaniel, and Labrador Retriever. Then, my daughter acquired a Rottweiler. With the exception of the Labrador Retriever they were all dangerous
animals.
The Cocker Spaniel wanted to bite any male...little boy's too.
The mixed breed was part German Shepherd and part Labrador. Like your dog, when he slipped out, he attacked anything human. At one time he had the paper boy on top of the car and would bite the children's tails as they walked to school.
The Rottweiler was especially lethal. Although we raised him lovingly from a puppy he was as lethal as a tiger.. When he was only a puppy he almost removed my thumb when I tried to remove a chicken bone from his mouth. I almost needed plastic surgery. The problem is that they can be so good and friendly sometimes but they can never be trusted. It's not realistic to think that you can keep him inside and that he will never get out again.
I made the mistake of thinking that I could take this puppy dog for a walk with a strong leash. Don't ever make that mistake. He saw a dog that he wanted to visit and drug me, hanging on the the leash in a prone position, across the yard.
When my daughter moved out, she took this dog with her. She and her husband installed an electric fence which failed to bother him and when he attacked a neighbor, they had to get rid of him.
It's very sad to have a dog killed but I just don't think that any other answer is wise. It's not a case of lack of proper nurturing and training . Some breeds are just instinctively wild.
Helen
[ edited by hjw on Dec 9, 2001 07:08 AM ]
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snowyegret
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posted on December 9, 2001 07:58:31 AM
Mybiddness, why don't you give Spindletop in Houston a call? They might know of someone in your area who can evaluate Phoebe.
Here's their home page
I told my husband about this (he's an experienced Borzoi breeder and trainer), and he said if it's a danger to people, he'd put it down.
You have the right to an informed opinion
-Harlan Ellison
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barbarake
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posted on December 9, 2001 09:04:18 AM
I've grown up with dogs, my grandmother and mother were professional breeders and I've always had dogs and have been involved in dog rescue. I say this just to let you know that I have a fair amount of background with dogs.
To be blunt, I think your dog needs to be put down. I'm sorry to say this but - in my experience - this cannot be 'trained out' of them. Yes, you can work with them and they'll be better but the 'zoning out' you're talking about is a *VERY* bad sign. You can never trust this dog. Are you willing to take the chance that it will never slip out the front door again? What if a kid is walking down the street? You can't take that chance.
I've had to put down one dog that was very similar. Small mixed breed. I was sitting on the sofa talking to my son and his friend. The dog was lying on the floor. She suddenly stood up, leaped on the cocktail table and lunged for the friend's face. Luckily my son reacted quickly enough and knocked her down while she was airborne. We knew she was 'quirky' but thought we could handle it. The friend was in our house constantly - it's not like he was a stranger or interacting with her at all.
I had her put to sleep the next morning.
What if she had connected? I could have been in *serious* trouble. You're in a similar position. Your dog *will* get out eventually.
(And - speaking as someone who 'lives in the country' - I don't appreciate people constantly trying to give me their vicious dogs. (It happens all the time.))
Trust me - some dogs are just born this way. It's not breed-specific (although - in my experience - cocker spaniels are most prone to this) but *any* breed can be this way. And it's very hard to identify because - as you say - most of the time the dog is warm and loving. But they can 'snap' at any time.
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mybiddness
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posted on December 9, 2001 10:08:33 AM
Thanks for all the input. I talked to my husband about it again this a.m. and we've decided to take her to a friend of his that runs an obedience school to have her evaluated... psychologically. My husband thinks that I'm over-reacting. He thinks she still has a lot of puppy in her and is just excited. He says that if she had wanted to attack the neighbor she could have done it and the fact that she didn't just shows that she's trainable. I think he's under-reacting. We've both agreed to abide by whatever the guy at the dog school says. The decision is made all the tougher because of her usual good nature. Another thing he pointed out is that she seems to reserve the aggressive behavior toward men an strange dogs and doesn't act that way with my kids friends or women. He thinks the fact that it's men and strange dogs that she reacts this way toward is just a protective instinct and that if she were as out of control as I say she is then she would act that way toward everyone. But, he agrees that we should have her professionally evaluated.
Not paranoid anywhere else but here!
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saabsister
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posted on December 9, 2001 10:13:00 AM
Mybiddness, I had forgotten about your and your husband's involvement in search/rescue work. You probably have a good idea about your dog's personality. That's probably why her potential attack on the neighbor is bothering you so much - it seems out of the ordinary. My dog was trained to hand signals too and would do anything for my husband and me. Luckily , he was a small dog (45 pounds) and we had a fenced yard and he preferred to be inside the house. Although I didn't have him put down and he lived to be 16-1/2, I always worried about him.
In fact, a friend who did field work and sometimes ran into aggressive dogs in the woods and fields used my dog to test her dog dazer on. She stood on my deck with my dog in the yard and pressed the button. He charged and she came racing into the house. The battery was dead in the dog dazer. She changed batteries and tried again. This time my dog growled, raised his hackles, but slowly went around to the other side of the house. She admitted to coming over twice while I was gone and using the dazer on him through the door. After that he kept his distance from her when she was in the house and after awhile even lay at her feet and let her pet him. If it hadn't been for the dazer, I'm sure he would have remain aggressive toward her.
I feel that I was extremely lucky that he never connected when he did try to bite and I'll never have another aggressive dog.
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