We have always said that PayPal would be free for person-to-person payments. When people started using it for e-commerce, we evolved as a company, expanded our features, and in June created Business Accounts
That's horse-badorties. people started using it for e-commerce from the git-go, because that's how it was marketed from the git-go. you did not evolve the company - you changed your mind about allowing auction sellers to use the service for free.
PPD - print this out - the person who told you to write that is a liar. (probably from marketing). Get away while you still can.
posted on September 15, 2000 12:04:09 PM
I emailed my complaint to Paypal yesterday ant here is their response.
"Thank you for contacting PayPal.
I apologize that you feel you have been lied to. This is not a
new policy, just a reminder of an old policy. X.coms free
PayPal service has always been intended for consumer use only,
and since we created Business and Premier Accounts in June, weve
asked business users to upgrade.
At this time, this is not a requirement to upgrade to a business
account. We are just asking those who use our system to collect
payments for goods or services sold on a corporate website,
personal homepage, or other forum that counts as business use, to
comply with our terms of use.
The fee only applies to incoming transactions, and it is only
1.9% of each transaction. Were merely asking that the sellers
share the credit card transaction fee with us. PayPal is not
making a profit from the 1.9% fee, it is merely to cover the
credit card fee, so that PayPal can continue to offer this
service for free to those who buy from you.
We have over 3 1/2 million users and we cover the cost of each
credit card transaction for all of those users. In order to be
able to continue to offer this service for free to your buyers,
we are merely asking that the sellers share that fee with us.
Again, we are not making a profit off of that, and the fee
applies to incoming payments only, not payments you send out.
We have to charge business users because credit card processing
is not free; it is actually hugely expensive. No one can give
away this service for free in any volume. Any competitors offers
to do so are promotional; they will also have to charge fees.
Nobody else offers a better service at a lower price. Our fees
(1.9% for credit cards) are about half of what our competitors
charge (e.g. 3.9% + $0.39 for Billpoint). We are the #1 payment
network on the web, and offer numerous advantages over competing
offerings.
Again, we are not forcing anyone or making anyone do anything.
We are just asking at this time.
If you have any further questions, please feel free to contact us
again.
Sincerely,
Gina
PayPal Customer Service
PayPal - A Service Of X.com
posted on September 15, 2000 12:55:29 PM
>>"The fee only applies to incoming transactions, and it is only 1.9% of each transaction. Were merely asking that the sellers share the credit card transaction fee with us. PayPal is not making a profit from the 1.9% fee, it is merely to cover the
credit card fee, so that PayPal can continue to offer this service for free to those who buy from you."<<
Another blatant lie on the part of a PayPal rep. Unless I am totally off base, the following transactions have nothing to do with credit cards:
Bank Account payments 1.9%
PayPal Balance payments 1.9%
posted on September 15, 2000 01:01:48 PM
In PayPalDamon's absence (I haven't seen him around the past couple of days), I hope PayPal is working to clarify the statements they've made and set some clear guidelines about what constitutes a "business" seller -- i.e. number of transactions.
IMO, PayPal's biggest problem during this whole fee fiasco has been vagueness. Confused customers are unhappy customers.
posted on September 15, 2000 01:11:25 PM
Where's Waldo (or Damon)?
Actually, PayPalDamon is here, he just seems to be ignoring the big issues. PayPal must really think we're a bunch of morons (or is it maroons) to think this will just fade away.
posted on September 15, 2000 01:16:49 PM
"PayPal service has always been intended for consumer use only, and since we created Business and Premier Accounts in June, weve
asked business users to upgrade."
Yoohoo, PayPal representatives, please look into your very own archives for the sales pitch you used to hook us in:
"PayPal is completely free to sellers."
See, I can copy and paste, too.
My source was here:
[http://server3002.freeyellow.com/j-d/pay-pal-for-auctions.html]
I too wrote Paypal explaining my position and why I would be cnacelling my account. This was the response:
Dear Jeff,
Thank you for contacting PayPal.
I apologize for the confusion, but we are not trying to force you to upgrade to a business account. We here at PayPal want you to enjoy your service, and we do not want you to feel obligated to do what you do not want to do. Once again, I do apologize for the inconvenience. I hope you continue to use and enjoy PayPal.
If you have any further questions, please feel free to contact us
again.
Sincerely,
Amber
PayPal Customer Service
PayPal - A Service Of X.com
Now reading that at face value, it means I can continue to accept Auction Payments without upgrading and recieve the Service I signed up for in the first place and will never be forced,enforced,deforced or reforced into a Businees account. However I wasn't satisfied so I then sent the following email back:
[B]G'Day,
Please answer 2 questions with a simple YES or NO. No other explanation is necessary just YES or NO
1) As a Seller on eBay am I required to upgrade my account?
2) As a Seller on eBay will my account ever be terminated (either now or
in the future) if I do not upgrade?
Thank you for a simple YES or NO answer,
Jeff Eldridge[/B]
That was over 33 hours ago and the silence is deafening. I guess YES or NO is just too tough for them......they would rather talk in riddles and doublespeak.
posted on September 15, 2000 04:17:55 PM
the folks at PP have never seen their user base numbers decline - only increase. I'm assuming they're declining, at least a little, right now. probably has them nervous.
posted on September 15, 2000 06:28:55 PM
Paypal is a business they couldn't care less about how people "feel" and what they think. They need to be concerned about the bottom line. I am neither for nor against Paypal, although I do think they are very unorganized and need to get it together. I sure wouldn't want them doing my taxes or my funeral. Although they will say they do, that is part of the game. Previous history has show that Paypal doesn't listen. They are unorganized and I believe at this point kind of grasping at straws. They keep changing the terms and tell us that they aren't. We all know that. Facts can't be debated. Paypal like any living thing and a business is a living thing will do what it needs to survive. We all said in the beginning it wouldn't last and indeed it hasn't. So, the best thing we can do. Is brace ourselves for the change. There are other pay services. I love Paydirect I use it on Yahoo and Ebay. It is from Yahoo and it is taking a little time to catch on but is free and because they took the time to set it up correctly from the start will most likely remain so. They have it set up to make their money out of the big business so they don't need to squeeze it out of the little ones. There is also Ebay online pay service. If you are going to be forced to a business account I would check the rates their. I am sure Paypal has planned theirs to be slightly lower then Ebay fees (that is if they did it correctly), but there are other things along with not near as many changes as Paypal that may makes up for that. There are probably other online services. Check them all out when Paypal drops the other boot, so to speak. Consider all things and go with what is best for you. You may find that Paypal will still be that best for you, but you must do the same thing Paypal as a business is doing what is best for Paypal. BTW just to know Paydirect (which works smoothly also does no allow any charge backs letting you in more control of refunds if given)
BTW has anyone else found that although sales are the same they seems to be a bid drop the last few weeks in Paypal payments are is just me? I was wondering this last night also.
posted on September 15, 2000 06:44:53 PM
Nobody else offers a better service at a lower price. Our fees
(1.9% for credit cards>>
I guess they forgot about paydirect from yahoo I have been using it since it opened about a month ago and they got it together (from the start but I would expect nothing less from Yahoo) I know I have mentioned this before (can you tell I like Paydirect: ) but paypal keeps forgetting about them and pay direct is free and because it is set up in such a respectable way I would expect them to stay that way. In fact I am phasing out all other payment service on Yahoo and going for the paydirect. That is a little harder as of yet to do on Ebay because I direct link to the Paydirect site will also take you indirectly to Yahoo auctions which isn't allowed on Ebay, but I do let people know I use it and that I prefer it. Those that shop both Yahoo and Ebay will go ahead and use the paydirect. In fact one guy told me he prefered it and was glad to see that I took Paydirect and it is free and no charges back aloud ever. I like that gives me more control over refunds of person claims they never got the item etc... It has never been a problem but there is always a first time. Anyway I have said this all before.
posted on September 15, 2000 07:15:09 PM
I have a small thought. PayPal's timing is also controversial. Tis the start of our season as sellers isn't it? October 01 looms, so did they really think we would cave into their "new policies"....or just go for it, as the season means lots of sales, lots of credit card charges, lots of money for PayPal too...my pockets are not deep...are yours?
posted on September 15, 2000 07:39:08 PM
"Your CEO was quoted as saying that 55,000 have not yet complied. "
This statement cannot be true, since it is not possible for them, or anyone, to know who should comply -- unless, of course, they are checking the number of transactions in your account and comparing it to their double-secret standard number.
posted on September 15, 2000 07:41:56 PM
I have to agree on this matter about fees as well a 25 cent flat fees and 1.9% of the transaction what give with this double dipping ????
also I read about that the rebate as well would this mean to say you want all to sign and pay fees to rebate our buyers or are you just takeing back all the $5 sign up bonuses a from buys quarter at time or just what is it your trying to say ???
if we sell for profit we are a business @ .25 + 1.9% for each Transaction ebay listing fees ebay FVFs supplys cameras scanners electric gas just what profit do you speak of ????
I for one do not exspect paypal or anyone to subsidize me. I had registered with paypal near a year ago, your service was free I never exspected to be subsidize you offered the service free. I have had a total of four transaction through paypal in that year for a grand total of about $56 in credit card payments to me.
I have found that 98.9% of buyer of my sale perfer to pay by money order or check.
And now that you offer this Premier or Business Account that will offer more services since I am not a business and there for do not have a License as a business you would ask me to lie to pay you.
this was I though ment to be easy safe way to offer credit card payment for everything includeing auctions . these online auction dont require a license to sell they do require a credit card or debit card verification. your service is avalable to any one at least 16 years of age most 16 year olds dont even have a licence to drive nor do they have credit cards or checking accounts.
its ok if you want to concider changeing your terms and if you want to charge and I guess you can charge what the market will bare but your terms for this business service is very hard for the average ebay seller to meet with out lieing 99.9% arent business and arent licened dont have a tax ID outside of SS# .
and I am here to say that if 250,000 or 82% of all paypal users have signed up then the better part of these people are in voilation of your terms as well
also you must make it clear here is it legal for people to pass these charges on to buyers what states is it legal in and where isnt it ???? or this could lead to a big state by state law suit I would think you might note fedral and state goverenment is big on this the past few year in the name of consumer protection, not to mention as you have stated soon you will be offering international what are international laws on this matter what does mastercard and visa have to say in these matters as well.
I have no objection to paying you per transaction a reasonable fee for your services I still think its a great deal but I need answer and so dont many other people.
well made plans dont bring on this much confusion for so many people.
posted on September 15, 2000 07:52:25 PM
If this is fact:
Using PayPal to collect payments for goods or services sold on a corporate website, personal homepage, or other forum counts as business use. Auction sellers — both individuals who make it a full time job and those who sell on a recurring, part-time basis — are also engaging in business use.
It would be easier to just tell me who is
qualified to have a personal account. Under the above qualifications why would anyone even use a personal account? Clue me in, someone. I'm not sure if I even want to delve into the finer points or just plain close my account. I did ebay for 2 years without paypal; I think I may go back to that system.
[ edited by toybuyer on Sep 15, 2000 07:53 PM ]
posted on September 15, 2000 08:04:33 PM
Wait a minute...so Paypal is telling us they need to charge this 1.9% fee to cover their costs of processing the credit card transaction (ie. Visa charges Paypal). I SMELL A SCAM: what about all the people who pay using the balance -- the float -- in their Paypal account (people who are NOT putting their purchase onto a credit card)? The seller WILL STILL be charged?? For what? Paypal will NOT incur the credit card fee from a buyer who pays using funds that exist in the buyer's Paypal account. It stinks every which way you look at it. Mostly because we were lied to. But the further you look, the more it stinks. Don't trust Paypal.
posted on September 15, 2000 08:17:20 PM
The cynics were right.
The cynics were right.
Saw the "welcome" message for the first time tonight. I'm very much on the borderline, running lots of 80-100 items (of which maybe a third are (or let's say were) paid through PayPal. But that's only once every 2 months, so if they averaged it out I'd probably come in under the line, but if they sampled the wrong 2-week period or measured it differently it could set off the "business user" alarm bells.
I think my initial response will be to greatly downplay mention of PayPal acceptance (possibly dropping it entirely from listings and mentioning in passing on EOAs). My items are usually in the $20-30 range (again borderline, as for people's fears about loss or about sending MOs or cash as payment).
If they still come knocking I'll probably just drop entirely. And if they pull an "Amazon" and claim ownership of all data submitted to them for possible direct-marketing sales, I hope someone sues the pants off 'em.
While I can empathize that PayPal can't handle large volumes without taking a real bath, their linguistic sleights of hand turning people who were only playing by the rules suddenly into freeloaders are positively Clintonian.
Just come out and be honest, say the original business model was unsustainable (as many of us already figured) and that from now on, more than ___ transactions (or whatever measure) will qualify you as a business account.
Why isn't PayPal doing this? Because doing so would, indeed, cause an initial dropoff in market share and some unhappy customers that would be hard to win back. PayPal is gambling that the softer, gradual approach will lose less market share. Fine, but don't call people freeloaders or dishonest just because they signed up for one thing and are now starting to balk because they're getting another by PayPal's choice. You're squandering your goodwill.
posted on September 16, 2000 05:21:18 AM
If they need the money to reimburse them for CC payments whay are bank trans and money in PayPal trans to another Paypal acct being charged.
Why dosent PayPal just implement a policy that if a PayPal user has to transfer Money from a CC they must purchase a Money Order/Cashiers Check type of deal from Paypal. That would cover the fees that they incurr and would make the sellers able to continue on with the service they have come to enjoy! This still could be like .50 which would be cheaper then getting a money order, an envelope and stamp and then having the extra time.
I do not think it was PayPals original idea to scam or lie. I believe when PayPal was purchased not too long ago the new owners got these fat dollar signs and said ooooo....we're gonna be able to buy that red Ferrari next month and the 3,000,000 house a couple days after if we just do this and that and this and that.
Can you just see the new owners seeing the number of PayPal members and adding to each a figure. Their heads were probebly going to explode. I am going to offer their services from my PERSONAL acct until they try to force me to change over. I have signed up with PayDirect and will se whats up from there.
I still think buyers will have this as an expectation as many dont care about you and your problems. If you do have to go to Business acct do what I will do. I will place something in my auction TOS like "I am happy to take PayPal services from any buyer, however, the incurred fees I have will be added to the final auction price. Plese let me know if you would like to use PayPal and I will find out the exact fees for this. Thanks".
If you are a direct recipient of a CC payment it is illegle to be reimbursed for your CC processing fees. If you use PayPal YOU THE SELLER are not directly getting payment from any CC. So just ad the fees!
If every seller did this PayPal would simply be put on a back burner in the auction areana. Then they will be forced to change yet again because all their hopes and dreams of going public will be dashing away like Roudolf the Red Nosed Reindear.
posted on September 16, 2000 06:28:46 AM
Here's my original email to Paypal followed by their 'eloquent and 'informative' response--
<i>Your 'assertion' of your terms of service on the login screen bothers me... you have built your customer base on being "Fast, free, and secure." You have provided auction buyers and sellers with this FREE (your term) service stating that you earn your money through interest on account balances. To that end, I have been exceptionally generous in leaving at ALL times at least $100 in my account, and usually several hundred dollars at any time. I think that's fair... you get to use MY money for free. Now you want to change the rules and call me a business just because I happen to sell a few items on ebay. Is a garage sale a business? Are two kids buying and selling trading cards amongst themselves businesses? I think the policy you are asserting is manipulative and deceptive (by virtue of how you got all those FREE users to this point), and represents an unethical attempt on your part to 'cash in' on the success of your program. For now I have drained my account to $1 and will continue to keep it at that balance until you decide to kick me off the system. I have been an exceptionally loyal customer-- when you were being slammed in the newsgroups about the 'hard drive incident' and when others claimed your service was inefficient and problematic. I waited patiently when you had 4 days of site outage (about the time your CEO flew the coop). And I have supported your "we make money on the balance..." strategy. Now you abandon me in favor of a NOT-FREE service. Well, unless you change your mind, I'll revert to the old money-order-in-the-mail method as that is a FREE service to sellers... and doesn't look like it will change any time soon. I'd love to hear from one of your decision-makers about this issue but don't actually expect that you will send any reply (other than the form letter I expect to receive a few seconds after this form hits your server). Until then... Kenneth Hass, 512-799-1000. BTW, I'm posting this message in the newsgroups as well to add my 2 cents to the brewing discussion of your new assertion.</>
Here's their response--
<i>Dear Mr. Hass,
Thank you for contacting PayPal.
If you have any further questions, please feel free to contact us
again.
Sincerely,
Evelyn
PayPal Customer Service
PayPal - A Service Of X.com</i>
