posted on September 23, 2000 08:44:10 PM new
How many of you have reported someone to ebay for selling something illegal/infringing? Dear hubby found someone selling multiple copies, dutch auction style, of copied PC games. I hate to butt in on someone's auctions, I'd be ticked if someone did it to me, but software developers put in a lot of time and money to develop these games and it irks me when someone just copies them and sells them for a profit. This guy didn't do anything to develop the game, why should he be able to make a quick buck off of it.
Anyway, we reported it to SafeHarbor. Now I'm wondering how long it takes for these folks to respond and what they're actually going to do about it.
posted on September 23, 2000 09:20:12 PM new
If you hate to be a tattletale, then don't.
How do you know the guy doesn't own the games, maybe he is the one who developed them or he owns the rights to them. Since you didn't provide the auction number we don't even know that this has happened why do you care how long it takes safeharbor to act?
I was once selling a Playgirl with an interview of Lady Diana, it had absolutely no nudes in it at all, but someone like you reported it to safeharbor and the auction was moved to the adult section. It was in the risque section before. Needless to say it didn't sell in the adult section thanks to a busy body or should I say a tattletale.
posted on September 23, 2000 09:32:49 PM new
I would generally not report anything to Safeharbor unless I was involved in a transaction with that eBayer. A lot of auctions are shut down without reasonable cause.
OTOH if you are sure they shouldn't be doing something--a major breach of eBay policy, then you might want to contact them.
posted on September 23, 2000 09:52:44 PM new
I'd report them in a second if you know for a fact that they did not write the games. You did the right thing. I occasionally sell full version retail software and people who are selling bootleg copies which cost them only the cost of a blank CD have an unfair advantage over honest eBayers such as myself. Such illegal acts also gives eBay that "flea market" or "yardsale" feel that undermines all sellers trying to make an honest profit by selling quality merchandise.
posted on September 23, 2000 10:26:43 PM new
When a member reported her concerns about reporting a seller for using the free USPS Priority boxes they faced a lot of abuse.
Something is wrong when the person reporting violations is viewed as the villian.
While it really didn't affect me, I was very ticked off at sellers that were marketing DIVX movies as DVD movies. The auction title would read "Armageddon DVD Movie" the item picture would be of a DVD package, and in the description they'd tell the cast, director, cinematographer, aspect ratio, running time, rating, plot, etc. and in the middle of all that text they'd slip in 'dvix format'. I'd report them.
Its okay to neg a seller that screws you, but some feel its bad form to report a seller that's screwing someone else.
posted on September 23, 2000 10:35:07 PM new
Glasshappy,
You might want to review the rules of the message center. You CAN'T post any info that would ID the seller until the seller has been invited to the forum.
As for your comment:
I was once selling a Playgirl with an but someone like you reported it to safeharbor and the auction was moved to the adult section. It was in the risque section before. Needless to say it didn't sell in the adult section thanks to a busy body or should I say a tattletale.
There is no need for you to attack the person who started this post.
Moderators, what do you think was Glasshappy's post an attack on sjl ok, or did Glass go over the edge?
posted on September 24, 2000 12:22:28 AM newkellyb, where does glasshappy ID the seller? And how is his comment "... it didn't sell in the adult section thanks to a busy body or should I say a tattletale" an "attack on the person who started this post"??
---------
While I agree that serious, blatant violations of ebay's TOS ought to be reported, I'm getting very tired of the busy-bodies myself!
Are you aware that you are in violation of ebay's keyword spamming rule if you word your auction title (for example) "Handpainted Standard Glaze Jardiniere -- McCoy?" Even in legitimate instances of doubt, ebay will close your auction if you mention a brand name accompanied by a question mark ...IF someone lacking a life feels like taking the time required to compose and send an email to Safe Harbor. Of course, while your particular auction is being nuked, several hundred others committing the same "crime" are still running.
Ebay's insistence on maintaining their "just-a-venue" status has created an environment that encourages self-appointed vigilantes whose motivations range from boredom to a desire to harrass their competition.
I personally do not have this sort of time on my hands. Even if I did, I am resentful that, as a member of the ebay "community," I'm expected to perform a job that rightfully belongs to ebay, IMO. As I said, unless it's a particularly egregious violation, I have no intention of ever doing so. Besides, they really don't need me -- there are already p-l-e-n-t-y of auction cops lurking out there...
ubb
[ edited by fountainhouse on Sep 24, 2000 12:23 AM ]
posted on September 24, 2000 01:15:58 AM new
By all means, yes, turn your head and look the other way when you see someone doing something wrong. And how dare you even think about reporting it to the proper authorities. After all, it's THEIR job to handle this kind of thing, not ours, right?
Yes, by all means, lets respond to this sort of thing just like people do in real life. When someone is doing something wrong, turn the other way, don't get involved, watch you fellow man become a victim. After all, it's the cops' job to take care of this kind of stuff, right?
Lets leave it up to eBay to police their community without the help of their members....just like we should leave it up to local cops to police their own communities without the help of the members of those communities.
Yes, by all means, lets continue to just stand by and watch the human race devolve into a bunch of heartless, non-caring individuals, who fear backlash or retaliation for stepping up to the plate and doing what is right.
posted on September 24, 2000 01:27:01 AM new
How do we know that this person is right? There has been no proof that this person was selling illegal copies. What if this was his own software and he has the legal right to sell it? A lot of people are making a lot of assumptions about a seller who we do not even know, and auctions we havenot even seen. The problem with the police on ebay is that they get a lot of innocent sellers shut down, and that is not fair. Heather
posted on September 24, 2000 01:49:22 AM new
How do we know that she is wrong? Are you, or others, automatically assuming she is wrong? It would appear that some have. Last time I checked, people were generally afforded the assumption of being right before they were accused of being wrong.
This person has been degraded because she did something that she felt was right. I don't think they did it out of ill will. It seems that others have been quick to judge this persons actions without knowing all the facts.
The original poster of this thread stated that they were copied PC games. It doesn't take a genius to figure out when some of these sellers are selling pirated software. Are we going to automatically assume that this person is an idiot and can't read what is in an auction? It seems that some already have and have been quick to lash out.
Yes, a lot of innocent sellers do get shut down. And a lot more get shut down that aren't. It not a perfect system by any means.
This person hasn't responded. With the type of feedback she has received, it wouldn't surprise me if she never does.
posted on September 24, 2000 02:17:31 AM new...lets continue to just stand by and watch the human race devolve into a bunch of heartless, non-caring individuals, who fear backlash or retaliation for stepping up to the plate and doing what is right.
Ah, yes, the popular "victim" refrain. We often hear it these days, but this rendition has too many violins for my taste.
Not by the wildest stretch does the (albeit clueless) seller of a "Blue Vellum Vase-Weller?" render any viewer a victim of anything. Further, to associate the word "victim" with users who happen upon auctions that contain technical violations of ebay's TOS only trivializes the plight of real victims.
OTOH, the act of reporting this or any other auction whose only transgression is a poor choice of words, or a link that's 3 pixels too big, or any number of other technical, yet trivial, violations of TOS, can indeed leave a victim in its wake -- the pitiful seller caught between vigilanteism and ebay's refusal to accept its responsibility.
edited to agree with the others who justly question all the unknown variables that ought to have been considered before sending notice to Safe Harbor. In this instance, if the poster was sufficiently familiar with this software to know that these were pirated copies, an email to the owner of the software would have allowed him/her to follow-up on their own behalf.
[ edited by fountainhouse on Sep 24, 2000 02:26 AM ]
posted on September 24, 2000 02:55:43 AM new
Hi fountainhouse - It just appeared to me that a "very wide brush" was being used in some of the posts on this thread.
Yes, my comparison is at different ends of the spectrum but I difinitly see similarities here. I certainly didn't mean to trivialize "the plight of real victims". It wasn't my intention to imply that all (or even the majority of) auction viewers became the victims of the seller.
It's very late and I am tired. I'm sorry that I wasn't able to present my view in a manner that got my point across properly. There are so many things that are happening in this country today that I find terribly upsetting and I see things reminiscent of them here. I guess I was just venting....unjustly perhaps. I apologize to all if this is the case.
Basically, I guess that what I'm trying to say is that I would never begrudge someone for turning in an auction that was blatently improper.
[ edited by nokternl on Sep 24, 2000 06:20 AM ] to add:
Oh, for what it's worth, I just noticed that it appears you may have thought my last post was directed at you. It wasn't. You post wasn't even on this thread when I started on this post.
posted on September 24, 2000 03:21:00 AM new
fountainhouse - In comparison to your edit...Lets say someone is selling stolen merchandise out of an apartment. Do you:
A) Ignore it.
B) Notify the owners of the merchandise and let them handle it (comparison would be the owners of the software) thereby taking a chance on delayed reaction which could result in total loss of merchandise.
C) Let the owners of the apartment know what's going on, assuming they were on the up and up, and let them handle it(comparison would be eBay) by calling the local law enforcement (again, it would be eBay).
D) Contact local law enforcement (comparison would be eBay).
Certainly "D" would seem to be the #1 choice. "C" wouldn't be a bad choice but I don't think it would be the best. "B" isn't a bad choice either, but not as good as "C" or "D" (plus you'd have to do a little work to find out who the actual owners of the merchandise are). Hopefully noone would pick "A", but unfortunately it happens.
posted on September 24, 2000 06:12:11 AM new
My choice in the above question would be "B" based on my own experience of having a friend doing me the favor of taking merchandise belonging to me to an auction house for sale due to me needing to be out of town. An auction house worker recognized my business name on the label and assumed this was stolen merchandise, called the police before trying to notify me or even asking my friend who was luckily carrying documentation from me with the address and inventory list for the auction. I shudder to think where the friendship would have gone had he not had proof that he was not a thief. Here in the USA I thought we were still innocent until proven guilty, I do not like the fact that the "only a venue" ebay has ended up being more of a police state with a guilty if tattled on attitude and once an auction is terminated you can not even get a fair hearing to plead your case. I believe that many a legitimate auction is stopped by a competetor or some self appointed radical out to "save the world". Let the property owner deal with it, if it is indeed an infringement issue then the copyright holder is who should be notified.
JMO...
kerrydaway as usual
posted on September 24, 2000 07:22:35 AM new
kerrydaway - The situation you mention is totally irrelevant to the example I gave. I clearly stated in my example that it would be stolen merchandise. Not merchandise of unknown or questionable circumstances.
I thought what I was trying to say would be pretty obvious. If I need to be more specific in my example so that it will be understood that the "stolen merchandise" was really and truely, honest to goodness, without a reasonable doubt, for sure stolen merchandise, just let me know and I'll try to help you understand the point I was trying to make.
The original poster was talking about copied PC games. Like I said earlier, it doesn't require a genius to determine that someone is selling pirated software in a particular auction. Not only is that illegal in this country, it is illegal in the sense that it violates eBays terms of use (you not even allowed to sell freeware/public domain software on CD-R's on eBay if you aren't the creator or copyright holder). Why should someone feel that is ok for others to do this when they can't do it themselves and why should they be persecuted for turning the violater in to the proper authorities?
Sure enough, the original poster didn't provide us with enough information to determine if the software in question was actually pirated or not but I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt for the time being that it was obviously pirated. Why are some of you so quick to doubt his intelligence?
Again, I'm not saying that there aren't faults with how eBay handles their business (as far as cancelling auctions) but I don't think that's the issue at hand here....or at least it wasn't to begin with.
"Let the property owner deal with it...." Geez, here we go again. God forbid that we get involved and go to the authorities if someone is obviously violating the law (be it eBay's or the law of the land). And while we're at it, lets just totally demoralize and criticize the person for doing so. This is a wonderful attitude. Yeah, why don't we all just let someone else worry with it.
One more thing, before someone brings it up, I'm not saying that the best choice for a person would be to go straight to a law enforcement agency to report software piracy (I agree in letting the copyright holder decide whether to do that or not), but in a case where it is being sold on eBay, I feel there is nothing wrong whatsoever with it being reported to eBay staff.
posted on September 24, 2000 07:23:01 AM new
sjl1017: You did the right thing. I recently reported an obvious fee avoidance seller and all of that sellers auctions were ended within hours.
"Lets leave it up to eBay to police their community without the help of their members...."
That's the problem, ebay doesn't police their own site, they want us to do it for them!
These types of sellers make all of us look bad. All it takes is a buyer to get burned once and they won't be back to buy our stuff.
posted on September 24, 2000 07:30:38 AM new
Let me make one thing perfectly clear. I may not have said in my original post that I know for a fact this person doesn't own the rights to these games. I also may have neglected to state in my original post that what he is selling is 100% illegal. I guess I'll clarify, he doesn't own the rights, these are popular games that are on store shelves right now. He also very clearly states that these are copies of the game. Duh!!! Add the fact that he's selling them dutch auction style in groups of 30 and it's pretty obvious that this is bootleg software.
I'm also going to add that, contrary to what someone else suggested, I do not go searching for violators of ebay TOS. We happened across the pirated games in a search for something else. Just so happens they are selling CDR copies of a game we were looking at.
And, last but not least, don't worry about me running away from the folks who would rather lash out at me than do the right thing. Bullies never did bother me much. It usually just means that they're doing something on the shady side themselves.
[ edited by sjl1017 on Sep 24, 2000 07:37 AM ]
[ edited by sjl1017 on Sep 24, 2000 07:42 AM ]
posted on September 24, 2000 07:48:14 AM newjake"These types of sellers make all of us look bad. All it takes is a buyer to get burned once and they won't be back to buy our stuff."
Well said Jake, if eBay becomes synonymous with scams and shams then the honest buyers will suffer for it.
BTW, if you are over 18 and you call me a tattletale to my face I'm probably going to bust out laughing. Our state recently passed a law where you can't call anyone a 'tattletale' if you are over 12 years old. I believe this law is present in 34 states now, the rest have legislation pending.
posted on September 24, 2000 08:17:03 AM new
oops...trying to add an image but I can't seem to make it work...oh well!
[ edited by sjl1017 on Sep 24, 2000 08:17 AM ]
posted on September 24, 2000 11:17:28 AM new
Now, if everyone is finished weighing in with their opinions as to whether or not I did the right thing. Would someone be so kind as to actually answer the question I asked, which is, if you've done this, how long does it usually take SafeHarbor to actually take action?
posted on September 24, 2000 11:47:40 AM new
A WEEK!!!???!!! The auctions end today. What good does a week do when most people run their auctions for that amount of time or shorter???
posted on September 24, 2000 12:06:02 PM new
Well, when did you send the notice to Safeharbor? And how long is the auction? 10 days? 3 days?
Usually, this sort of stuff takes time to figure out (by eBay's standards) so a week is probably the "limit." Also, since this is Illegal software, note Federal Authorities might have to be contacted, along with the respective Software Manufacter.
So, if it's found out this is going on AFTER your initial report, eBay has one one option:
N-A-R-U
Case Closed.
:\\\"Crystalline Sliver cannot be the target of spells or abilities.
Kelly 
