posted on October 5, 2000 11:05:34 AM new
I want to add something here that is slightly OT but on the lines of the discussion, that might make some hearts happy. The other day my husband and I watched a documentary regarding the murder of a black man at the hands of the KKK. In the show, they were showing "spots" of the Klan in a disgusting public speech. In that, a KKK member said N****r several times repeatedly. My 12 year old daughter had just come in, and had started to watch the show with us. She turned to me and said with the most alarmed look: "Mom, What does N****r mean?" I was dumbfounded. And I didn't know what to say...I didn't even want to EXPLAIN it to her. I was surprised she had not heard the term, and yet..I was OVERJOYED that she had never heard it. I did not explain it to her.. I just said "Honey, if you don't know, lets keep it that way...its not a nice word."
I am so grateful that in this day and time my daughter actually had to ask me that question.
posted on October 5, 2000 12:22:26 PM new
Well this thread at least got me to doing some research on the subject of the Jolly Nigger Bank. Seems that Jolly Nigger is not a brand but a Trademark that belongs to the Shepard Hardware Company, Buffalo, NY registered 3-14-1882.
As such Jolly Nigger is not a brand it is a Trademark for that bank. And here's an interesting tidbit of the Academia View of the items and what they represent.
[link]http://www.ferris.edu/htmls/news/jimcrow/more.htm[/link]
So with that said maybe the sellers of such items should take the time to research the crap and list it as follows:
Rare Shepard Hardware 1882, Negro Parody Bank and take good pictures. Kills the need for the N word in the title and then they call it that in the description.
The problem here and with ebay for allowing it. [b]Is an apparent haste to defend the use of the name coupled with a haste to condem the use without both sides looking for a logical solution to solve the problem. Sure the items have a market and they show a part of our history that shows just how IGNORANT a Large Chunk of our Population used to be. The part of my research that shocked me the most is the number of patents for this "History" (I use the term loosely) that reveals many of the manufacturers of these artifacts are held by Northern Companies. Which is easily exlained because that is where the majority of the facories were located.
The link I posted to the Jim Crow Museum also states that a lot of today's Middle Class African Americans are ashamed of this history. That shame bothers me especially when I place it in the context of America today the year 2000. In 1967 when I was born my family was three years into Affirmative Action, Civil Rights and the rest of what is now Modern American History. Here in 2000, I am a member of the first Generation of my Family to have everyone College Educated. In fact all of us have advanced degrees.
However midnightdesigns post scares me a little because. Both sides have to acknowledge the wrongs and evils of our past history in order for us to progress to new history. Number two problem in America, real problems never get solved. We just keep on going stalemates that cause more harm than good. Nothing wrong with a 12 year-old White American Child knowing what the N word means. Would you rather your child learn your view of the word and the evil meaning of it. Or would you rather her look it up in a modern dictionary. The dictionary definition of the N word give the impression that it is perfectly okay to use it.
[ edited by networker67 on Oct 5, 2000 12:26 PM ]
[ edited by networker67 on Oct 5, 2000 03:23 PM ]
[ edited by networker67 on Oct 5, 2000 03:27 PM ]
posted on October 5, 2000 12:43:13 PM new
In fact I am going to invite Dr. Pilgrim to this thread maybe he can shed some intellect about these items since pages on Museums sites mention ebay, yahoo, and others. Maybe we all could learn something from this thread and maybe find tha neutral ground where harmony with the history is maintained.
posted on October 5, 2000 01:23:50 PM newRare Shepard Hardware 1882, Negro Parody Bank and take good pictures. Kills the need for the N word in the title and then they call it that in the description.
Yes, that's all well & fine, but the problem is numerous cast iron manufacturers made similiar banks, and many of the collectors of said banks use the N word when doing online searchs.
Shepard wasn't the only manufacturer of these banks during that era, a few years later J & E Stevens also began producing them. Many other companies followed suit, & many of those don't have a "trademark" name on the back.
John Harper, a well known cast iron toy maker from England, called 2 of his banks "Lucky Joe" and "Dinah", yet many collectors still place the Lucky Joe bank under the Jolly N bank category, and use those words when doing searches. This is what the collectors refer to them as.
You may very well consider these items "crap", and that of course is your right.
But what gives you the right to attempt to control what others feel & think about the use of the N word when buying or selling these items?
Should we ban Stevie Wonder's song that used the N word in it?
I'm sorry if you find this word offensive, and I'm sure many people do, but I hardly think that gives you the right to decide it's value when selling and/or buying antiques.
posted on October 5, 2000 01:38:04 PM new
Oh, BTW - that article is based on one mans opinion.
Notice he refered to the bank left on his desk at work as a "Jolly Nigger" bank.
Shouldn't he have called it a "Shepard Hardware Negro Parody Bank"
And with regards to right-wing fascist groups reproducing these items. Puleeeeze, the fact is that the vast majority of these items are being made in the East, as in Far East. And like ALL vintage items that are being reproduced today, it's because there's a demand for these items. People that can't afford that authentic $1,500 cookie jar, are buying up the repo items.
I doubt I'll be back to this thread, but thought I should at least clear up a few of the one sided comments posted thus far.
posted on October 5, 2000 01:38:42 PM new
In our society today, we have people who believe that this and that are wrong and should be banned...
Still, who is to decide what's what?
What if I were to say stocks and bonds (the paper kind, not the chains and bondage stuff folks) are bad and me and maybe 300,000 other folks petioned eBay that this is bad?
Remember, what comes around, goes around.
:\\\"Crystalline Sliver cannot be the target of spells or abilities.
posted on October 5, 2000 02:36:20 PM new
This is a picture of the crap that we are speaking about. The description indicates...put a coin in his hand, press lever on back,
coin goes in mouth and tongue and eyes roll back The name is the jolly nigger
bank, complete with exaggerated features etc.
[ edited by HJW on Oct 5, 2000 02:37 PM ]
[ edited by HJW on Oct 5, 2000 02:39 PM ]
[ edited by HJW on Oct 5, 2000 02:50 PM ]
posted on October 5, 2000 03:15:44 PM new
I find lots of things offensive, but I would never suggest that they should be banned on eBay, or the use of certain words to descibe them.
For the record, that pic posted by moi, was only to help out HJW who had the UBB code incorrect.
posted on October 5, 2000 03:21:45 PM new
Reddeer, I am not suggesting that the items be banned. If somebody wants to buy that mess, so be it. It ain't gonna be me.
posted on October 5, 2000 03:37:42 PM new
reddeer - And you find it difficult to substitute J. E. Stevens for Shepard Hardware. Or does just having a place where you can type Nigger in public make you feel just grand. That is why ebay should either institute a policy to name these things in a less offensive manner or stop the sales of them.
Should they be banned no; should they be required to be listed in a less insulting manner yes. Like my post says find that happy medium where sales can be had and insults and slurs left out or get rid of them.
posted on October 5, 2000 03:38:16 PM new
NETWORKER67 said:
:::Nothing wrong with a 12 year-old White American Child knowing what the N word means. Would you rather your child learn your view of the word and the evil meaning of it. Or would you rather her look it up in a modern dictionary. The dictionary definition of the N word give the impression that it is perfectly okay to use it.:::
I dont know what your dictionary says (maybe you need to buy a newer copy?) that 'gives the impression that it is perfectly okay to use' but my dictionary makes it clear that it is a derogatory word:
" 1 usually offensive, see usage paragraph below : a black person
2 usually offensive, see usage paragraph below : a member of any dark-skinned race
3 : a member of a socially disadvantaged class of persons <it's time for somebody to lead all of America's n******... all the people who feel left out of the political process -- Ron Dellums>
usage in senses 1 and 2 can be found in the works of such writers of the past as Joseph Conrad, Mark Twain, and Charles Dickens, but it now ranks as perhaps the most offensive and inflammatory racial slur in English. Its use by and among blacks is not always intended or taken as offensive, but, except in sense 3, it is otherwise a word expressive of racial hatred and bigotry."
As for my daughter not knowing what it means, I never said there was anything WRONG with her knowing..I simply said I was GLAD she had not been exposed to the use of such a hateful word YET. I am sorry if that scares you..
posted on October 5, 2000 04:01:02 PM new
I think there is no reason to re-write history, or to pretend that it never happened. As a matter of fact, it's downright dangerous.
If the product being offered for auction is the "Jolly Nigger Bank," then that is how it should be listed.
If the book for sale is Dick Gregory's "Nigger," it should be listed as such.
To prettify the past because it makes us uncomfortable leads to the near-inevitable outcome that we will repeat it. As long as examples of "Darkie Toothpaste," "Little Black Sambo," and Nazi concentration camp photos exist, we can LOOK at them, ACKNOWLEDGE what they are and what they represent, and we can ensure that we NEVER fall prey to that kind of hate.
You can't make it go away. And as to changing the title of Joseph Conrad...what's the point? Make YOU feel better? If it offends you, why did you sell it in the first place?
Objects are. They are neither good nor bad...only the context which we place them in. If such Black Americana (and by the way, "Afro-American"...didn't that go out with Qiana shirts??) is treated as a tangible example of our views within the context of history, and held up as an example of how ugly we can be to each other, then it serves its purpose.
The same can be said for anything that shows our less-than-humane side, from Nazi memorabilia to KKK stuff. It shouldn't be hidden from view...that gives it power. To hold it to the light of day makes it weak...because only in light can you see how wrong it is.
posted on October 5, 2000 04:34:15 PM new
reddeer - It didn't come to anything. You were given a solution that preserved selling the item and removed the hateful language. You choose to candybutt an excuse around a very viable solution with no alternative.
scorpiogal - Do you list the Dick Gregory book as "Nigger" or do you list it as "Nigger" a book by Dick Gregory. They both list the book. One tells you its a book the other just uses a word to incite an audience.
You made a valid point. However, "Somethings are best left in the past especially if the present isn't ready to address them as wrong and atone for them". And listing the Jolly Nigger Bank can be done to sel the item which is the goal and not offend which although made to offend shouldn't be allowed to continue to serve that purpose.
Besides where does ebay get off calling this stuff Black Americana, we certainly didn't make the stuff and we all can admit that the descriptions aren't exactly accurate. They are more insulting than anything. Not part of my or my forefathers American Experience, part of the ignorance of the American Experience they have had to live through. So the entire category as far as those items are concerned is mislabled. The entire lot of the merchandise of that era should becalled "Jim Crow Era Memorabilia". This way the folks who proliferated the ignorance of the era can share some of the insult of the legacy. QUESTION do you agree to that or are you going to try and grandstand why that title wouldn't be appropriate. If we want to keep the history accurate might as well name it that way.
Or better yet the militant in me thought of this title. "Historical Items that show White Arrogance, Ignorance, and Hatred". Wow that one sounds even more proper for these things to be lumped into. I wonder how many people will reply that title isn't right and the current one is proper. Well at least I tried to preserve the true history. Others just want the right to say Nigger in a description.
[ edited by networker67 on Oct 5, 2000 04:44 PM ]
posted on October 5, 2000 05:09:22 PM new
meto64 - And you felt the need to post that because of what? That isn't the essence of the thread, but your view is the main reason why scropiogals post and its message isn't ready for the masses. And your apparent comfort with saying what you said is all the more reason to title the items in a less offensive manner. Because people seem to get to comfortable with the use of the word.
On a different note to address meto64, I bet you do not even know the mindset behind doing that do you? Well allow me to enlighten you. I wouldn't want to see your new found comfort with the N-word to cause you to use it around other Afican-Americans that might not fair to well for you. I happen to be of an advanced educational and social background. That I see your use of it as demeaning for you because of a lack of proper education and social background to know better. So it insults you more than me.
It is done because many Blacks enjoy being able to use the word knowing that a White Person better not use the word. Its like I can say it but you can't na na.
[ edited by networker67 on Oct 5, 2000 05:13 PM ]
[ edited by networker67 on Oct 5, 2000 05:30 PM ]
[ edited by networker67 on Oct 5, 2000 05:39 PM ]
posted on October 5, 2000 05:25:00 PM new
Joyce - You have got to be kidding. It means I wouldn't want to see his comfort with using the word cause him to use it with a group of African Americans. I also think the explanation in the next paragraph should have fully removed any doubt to whether it was a threat or not. Which by the way that explanation is psychologically accurate of why African Americans use the N word among themselves.
edited to avoid angering the moderator.
[ edited by networker67 on Oct 5, 2000 05:35 PM ]
posted on October 5, 2000 05:25:36 PM new
Actually, I was a high school English teacher who TAUGHT Dick Gregory's "Nigger." Unlike my fellow teachers who very nervously asked for Dick Gregory's autobiography (afraid to even say "that word", I requisitioned "Nigger." Let me tell you why.
The title of the book IS "Nigger." It was Gregory's vision, and Gregory's book to name. So much so, that before the dedication is a page that reads, "Dear Momma--Wherever you are, if ever you hear the word "nigger" again, remember that they are advetising my book." Got it? The context of the word shifts from insult to promotion. It is that mindset that will make the use (and the meaning) of all such epithets unnecessary.
Again, the fact is that the "Jolly Nigger Bank" is a REAL object, not merely a seller using a word to incite anger. I don't care for the OBJECT, I don't wish to OWN such an object, but I cannot deny that is what it is called.
When I perused the Black Americana section, and I clicked on any auction that had the word "nigger" in the title, I found that all the objects (except for 4 or 5) were objects that had the word "nigger" printed on them.
As offensive as you may find that, it is a reality. The collectors of such things have the right to an accurate desciption in the title of the auction, and, "Jolly Nigger Bank" is that. Merely not liking it, or wishing that it could be changed to something more pleasant won't change what the object actually is.
One of my husband's closest friends is a very serious dealer of Nazi memorabilia. The stuff gives me the creeps, and I don't EVER wish to touch it, or own it. But I can't deny others. If you wish to own Goering's wedding sword, go for it.
If you wish to own "Darkie Toothpaste," or a "Mammie" cookie jar, great for you. Trying to couch the name of the object into something pretty and sweet (and sociaaly acceptable) doesn't change a thing.
I maintain that it is accurate to call it exactly what it is: the object has a name printed right on it. If it were a "Jolly Black Bank," that is what it should be called. I don't agree with sellers using incorrect titles just to get people to view auctions.
The idea that until we "atone" for our pasts we should hide it away is, to me, silly. Hiding doesn't change the reality of it. Bringing it out into the open, for free discussion, lively debate, THAT will improve things.
As to eBay's naming of the section in question, I think that debating that would be an exercise in sophistry. If the collecting world has termed all such objects as "Black Americana" or "Black Memorabilia," that is fine with me. If the political winds change and the name suddenly becomes something else, then go change it....
Remember Dick Gregory...every time someone types/says it, his book is being advertised.
Get off the idea that because "political correctness" is the buzzword of today, the past must be censored and rewritten to conform to our standards. That smacks of Orwell's "Nineteen Eighty-Four." One of the reasons WHY we are careful today is BECAUSE of the injustices of yesterday. Don't pretend it didn't happen.
posted on October 5, 2000 05:46:20 PM new
networker67,
I was not kidding. Your posting style is frequently confrontational and I asked for an explanation rather than going the moderation route without the benefit of your response.
posted on October 5, 2000 06:23:32 PM new
skorpiogal - First and foremost let's understand this, "Politically Correct and networker67 are two things that would never be said in the same sentenace. I suspect many here on Auction Watch would agree.
Why would you think it is politically correct to call the banks Which I own two of them Shepard Hardware Company, Negro Parody Bank. Shepard hardware made it and it is a parody to insult Blacks. The patent might call it a Jolly Nigger. But since the patent was issued in 1882 we all know why that flew as a name. It describes the item and I can cheerfully place what the piece is called in the actual description.
Dick Gregory's book which isn't what I would call a classic example of African American literacy acheivement, would be called ("Nigger" autobiography of Dick Gregory). If Dick Gregory when he wrote that book which was as successful as the "Bahamian Diet". Thought that a title of "Nigger" made for a great marketing concept well shame on him. That in itself does not soften the meaning or connation of the word. If everyone in America had your educational and social mindset there wouldn't be problem. However let's just face reality of America, socially we are in the dark ages and the light still hasn't arrived.
As a very successful African American, everytime I see the word developing a comfort level it makes my life difficult. Just as difficult as it becomes when a fellow successful African American completely ignores and pretends that the sterotypes affixed to African Americans doesn't apply to them.
Although metwo64 was moderated that doesn't bother me that people use the term. In fact I prefer people like him to those who hide and only do it in certain company. The hidden ones have always been the true enemey. However in mainstream America we have a lot issues which have yet to be resolved and probably won't be in my or your lifetimes.
So in 2000 we can't allow Jim Crow Era Memorabilia to make Jolly Nigger and those inherently insulting artifacts become once again household names or words. Black Americana IMHO is those items which represent the African American experience in America. Sorry but Jim Crow Memorabilia was created by Whites to entertain a White perception of superiority. It uses mythological features and tones to demean and insult people of color. So let's face the truth although a part of history it is a part that has gathered some popularity because a peson Probably White decided to call it Black Americana. Sorry doesn't make it right Politically Correct or not.
I live in a country where Atheist groups can have the crosses removed from government vehicles and street signs in towns called Antioch and Zion. But it is still considered allowable for an internet commerce site to openly use a racial slur to sell a racially demeaning item as a peice of history. Wow what a great country.
I hope Dr. Pilgrim hurries up and joins this thread.
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