posted on October 5, 2000 06:31:17 PM newmetwo64 That was BY FAR the most ignorant post I have read in quite a while. We're trying to have a discussion here about an obviously SENSITIVE subject. Quit causing trouble...the subject itself lends enough friction to the conversation.
SkorpioGal Thank you, your first post was OUTSTANDING! Exactly!
reddeer I wish I could be as articulate as you are in your posts. You're saying what I wanted to say...but I guess the way I say things hurts my argument.
Baduizm I understand what you're saying, and I'm glad that you're giving a sincere opinion in here without letting things get nasty, or personal. Those things you say you wouldn't buy or sell, I'm right there with you. I wouldn't have those things in my house either.
But I won't let my distaste for those items or images keep me from being able to accept them for what they are... nor do I think anyone should gloss over the ugly parts, just because I don't like to look at them.
posted on October 5, 2000 06:52:24 PM newSkorpioGal
Check out the Black Memorbilia listings. How can you refer to this
crap as History. Nobody here is trying to rewrite history. This stuff
has absolutely nothing to do with history. What, for example does
the jolly nigger have to do with history?
You mentioned my listing Conrad's book without the word nigger in the
title. It simply wasn't necessary. And as I explained earlier, Conrad's
use of the word nigger has absolutely no comparison to the word as it
is used today. Most High School students know this.
To suggest that the book offends me is ludicrous. I am very selective
in the books that I sell. I can't comment on the Dick Gregory book
because I haven't read it.
Acknowledging man's inhumanity to man is vital. But selling
reminders of this inhumanity as "collectibles" on ebay is obscene. Selling caricatures of a race of people who
have been oppressed is obscene. And using the derogatory terms
nigger, coon, picaninny and niglet is obscene. All of these terms
are on the Black Memorabilia listing right now on Ebay.
And furthermore, nobody selling this obscene crap is interested in
bringing anything, as you say... "to the light of day" but possibly
a dollar bill.
posted on October 5, 2000 07:09:15 PM new
ya know i was the first to respond to this post and stated i didnt think many people would touch this subject......i think i was wrong. lol, scorpiogal has and others have tried to make true sensible fair statements but the bottom line has just been brought up in the last message.
this is about listings, keywords,searching, collecting, and the color that is being thought of is GREEN us currency
i will say this if it matters
for such a fragile subject with so many different opinions
i havent felt any of the hate being spoken about in this message board
(a couple idiots tried to play) but both black and white people seem to be listening to each other.
im glad we arent censored or we wouldnt be sharing right now.
posted on October 5, 2000 07:19:53 PM new
Speaking of political correctness..
If people didn't have this need to classify them selves and others (as black, white, asian, gay, or whatever) there would be no need to be "politically correct", and we would not have to worry about what to call each other. This would be a non-issue.
We are all people, humans, brothers, sisters, mothers, fathers, sons and daughters and all equally important.
posted on October 5, 2000 07:23:18 PM newoutoftheblue I see no reason why race should not be acknowledged. Heritage is IMPORTANT to many of us. It's unrealistic to say that we should look past race altogether, and impractical.
If that was not acknowledged, throw affirmative action out the window. Might set us back a few decades..... kind of like saying, let's not call ourselves "men" or "women", let's just call ourselves "People"..
posted on October 5, 2000 07:35:25 PM new
peachy77 you have also made wonderful points.
and i need to say something i hate the word n-----. i mean hate it. but if i am told i am not ever allowed to say any word , be it the n word or the f word or anyword and i will know i no longer live in america.
take away , even the right to be wrong and the system will tumble
hitler tried to erase some things he didnt like ,didnt he
forget nothing! even the bad...it is your history
it protects you
and i can tell you anyone filled with such hate for anyrace will surely replace the word with something else
so keep the word and teach your children what hate means and how to see it and understand it
posted on October 5, 2000 07:50:07 PM new
Peachy77
You misunderstood me, I think. Cultural differences (diversity) is great. I know people from all over the world and I find it fascinating. However, from simple observation I can say that classification divides, and leads to stereotyping, misunderstanding and inevitably hate. The color of your skin is just that, the color of your skin, and does not define who you are as a person.
posted on October 5, 2000 07:52:19 PM new
I certainly don't wish this to turn into my literary analysis of Dick Gregory, but if you haven't read the book, you really can't say for certain WHY he called it that: assumptions mean nothing. It was written in 1964. I highly recommend it, actually. I quote the New York Times review: "Powerful and ugly and beautiful...a moving story of a man who deeply wants a world without malice and hate and is doing something about it." Enough said.
As to the reference that all the items in the Black Americana listings are "crap," well, I am SOOOOOOO glad that you set yourself up as the judge of taste and propriety!! The reason for a collectible market is that someone who owns something that is of little value to him, can sell it to someone who believes it has value. That goes for ANYTHING, actually.
I have sold some of the most ugly silver rings you could imagine...but they were signed by a very famous designer, and I made a frightening amount of money (a $25 investment in ONE ring netted me $550!!!). I have no interest in those rings, and I can't believe that people would spend that much on one....but it is not for me to judge.
An object is merely an object. If you don't like it, you don't have to buy it. But that doesn't mean that you should suggest that something that is not illegal to own, trade, or sell should not be available.
And selling it for a profit, by the way, IS bringing it to the light of day. Its mere existence is enough...seeing it is enough...if someone wants to own it, fine with me.
If it offends you, that doesn't mean it shouldn't exist, or be sold. What is wrong with it? If YOU view it as something wrong or inappropriate, then don't search the section, or check out the listings. For those who are interested in owning them, let them be.
Yes, the ultimate goal for ANY business (and that includes a garage sale) is to make money. Better listings, truthful listings, well-photographed, well-described listings make more money. Is that such a terrible thing?
As I indicated before, one of my husband's friends is a dealer of Nazi stuff. Do I really care? No. He has his niche...I have mine. For those who are interested in owning such things (and there are MANY!!), they find sources, and pay premiums for the right to have such things.
Are objects then, "history?" Yes. They represent a time, were made during a particular age, and are tangible pieces of evidence of a time. That, to me, IS history.
Why do people dig up goofy artifacts from the Egyptians, the Sumerians, the Romans, or the Anasazi? People pay premiums for the right to own THOSE objects, too. Many ancient cultures owned slaves, sacrificed humans and animals, waged wars, then ceased to exist. But we still wish to own the objects. I own a gold Quimbaya figure used in human sacrifice (it still has traces of blood on it). Is that "crap" because is represents part of a culture at its worst?
No. It is history, and discovering the truth about our origins...and really how little we have changed despite the more sophisticated toys we play with. The preservation of our past is of great importance, and there are individuals who dedicate themselves to amassing a collection of objects devoted to what they deem to be important.
Who am I to say it is wrong? You don't like the word "nigger?" Don't use it. Don't sell any objects that have it printed on them. But that won't make them not exist.
If every seller of the Jolly Bank started listing is as a "Parody Bank," does that change the FACT that the bank is indelibly marked in raised letters "Jolly Nigger Bank?"
No. So, for all the attempts to change it, to make it more palatable, the OBJECT ITSELF REMAINS THE SAME.
It isn't "garbage" "crap" "worthless"...it is an object for sale. How do you know that the buyer isn't a museum trying to build a permanent collection of artifacts?
A permanent collection to show the next generation what we did wrong...and still do wrong.
posted on October 5, 2000 07:59:51 PM new
A difficult subject touching, as it does, on a very sensitive issue that pushes people's buttons.
The thing is, that such items *are* a part of our history. A shameful part. I don't think, though, that they should be hidden. People can be "told" how things are or were, but that will not have the impact or "reality" that actually seeing does. For instance, cerebrally future generations may "know" how bad slavery was (or the Holocaust, or other horrid things in history) but without access to solid things like photos or objects it won't really be brought home to them.
If an item actually has the N-word in it's title or as part of it's name then the seller is doing nothing wrong in listing it as such. If a seller were to use the term simply because an object was a piece of "Black Americana," that would be entirely different, and objectionable IMO.
Along with others I do find it odd that the word has had such a resurgence in the black community. In my lifetime, whites have been educated about this word to the point that the vast majority would never dream of using it & disapprove of its use by the racists that do still use it. On the other hand, it has come into common usage by blacks! One can understand where confusion can start: how can the word fade into obscurity if it is in daily, open use by the very group it denigrates? But then, I feel the same disbelief on the growing use of the word "b*tch" which seems to be synonimous with "woman" to quite a few people who just don't see why it is offensive...
[ edited by bunnicula on Oct 5, 2000 08:03 PM ]
posted on October 5, 2000 10:02:25 PM new
skorpiogal - First off let's form he understanding that first off the offensive items first off have no place in Black Americana. Let's further that position with a definition of Black Americana.
Black - means African Americans that part is a gimme.
Americana - books, maps, artifacts, etc. pertaining to American especially its history.
With that said the Jolly Nigger Banks and other items are not a part of Black History in America. They are a part of White American History as it relates to the down grading and insulting of African Americans. With that said the items belong in their own category which should be called Jim Crow Era Memorabilia.
Why should White American insults to Black America be intrically linked to our history. Why not make it your history so you can teach your children how your forefathers acted.
I am not an advocate for hiding the items. I am an advocate for correctly classifying and naming the items. They don't belong in Black Americana. They belong in their own little corner of the ebay world.
True they are a part of American History . A sad part of America's young history but a part that empasses over 190 years of America's 225 year history. Let's not lose the historial perspective here. America is only 35 years away from when the items and the word, were commonly used and acceptable in general America. So let's don't make these items seem like ancient artifacts.
I agree the stuff is history except it isn't Black History, its part of the History of White Indifference.
I don't object to them being sold. I do object to them being called Black Americana. Like I said earlier not a part of my history. Its a part of your history that reveals the ignorance of the former masters and their desire to maintain their false sense of superiority and dominance. And as an American, I stand by the Constitution that says it has a right to be sold. However, ebay has a duty to categorize and list it in a section that accurately describes what the items are. And sadly by definition Black Americana isn't the right one.
posted on October 5, 2000 10:21:10 PM new
outoftheblue - You speak of a place I wish I lived. One of the fundamental problems of America is that No One Knows What It Means To Be American When people call me African-American sometimes I tell them I am an American. Nothing before or after, I am American because I count back five generations of people born here and can count forward one generation for a total of six. In fact I am more American than the average White American.
Why because I can't trace back to a relative born anywhere but America. The old country for me is Mississippi, where my family is from. I have no ties to another country, and have no cultural identity or heritage to any place except America. The family has owned land in America since 1885 which means been paying taxes since then. So a part of me agrees but another part of me disagrees.
America is a unique place here you can see all the world has to offer and never cross an ocean. Want to see what Italians look like we got em, looking for some Romanians, Germans, Greeks, Chinese, Japanese Koreans, Indians, or British people we got em all. Looking for some Nigerians, Laotians, Ethopians, got a few of those too. All of these people make America what it is so they should not have to sacrifice what they bring to America to be a part of America.
But however when they get to America. All I ask is that if you intend to set up shop. This is America you are one of us. We are held together by only one thing. And what's sad is most americans don't even know what it is. I'll save the answer for my next post to see if someone will try and guess what makes us American. And its not something that you can see, touch, or smell.
posted on October 5, 2000 10:36:52 PM newnetworker You assume wrongly that the items are a part of all "white" Americans' history. I for one am mostly German. MY family was poor for all but the last few generations. None of my family owned slaves. There's no telling what mischief my family was involved in back in Germany, but don't lay the troubles of slavery at every white family's doorstep.
Your stereotyping lends NO credibility to your argument. That is no better than the type of stereotyping that seems to incite your righteous indignation.
posted on October 5, 2000 10:53:29 PM new
Actually james you missed the point. But to further it we'll add to the equation that every male in the family has served in the United States Military dating back to the Civil War. We have been in every war except the Spanish American War. And my personal contribution includes both the Panama Invasion and the Gulf War.
Its easy to grab one sentenace from a statement and not read or in your case easily overlook the supporting evidence. Let's face facts the American Government is guilty of working to keep a White Majority. What was the first thing done after the Civil War and the Freeing of the Slaves.
They reopened immigration from Europe
Did we need the new immigration to build the country. Sorry had all the manpower right here. Talk to ten average Whites in America. You will find something totally shocking and true in the context of my post. They got to America after 1890.
So my statement you quoted is not part of the problem unless the problem is mainstream Whites not accepting that every African American is 6 or more generations born here in America. But only a small group of White Americans can say the same thing. And before you reply keep in mind a generation is only 30 years. So from 1890 to 2000 is 110 years which with rounding is exactly four generations. So not only did African Americans benefit from the Civil War, but a whole lot of what we now call White Americans benefitted from it also. Because without it there wouldn't have been a new wave of mass immigration. And a lot of you would still be in Europe.
See james history is a powerful thing. Knowledge of it gives me the power of understanding of my rights here. And to you that understanding is part of a problem. What problem is that might I ask.
posted on October 5, 2000 11:04:54 PM new
I'm an American citizen. Whether my ancestors came here on the Mayflower, a slave ship, a rubber raft or an airplane, I am as American as the next citizen.
Your six generations to my four generations don't mean anything. The guy who was sworn in as a citizen this afternoon is as American as both of us. Trying to perpetuate hierarchies is indeed part of the problem. You want to play that game? There are indeed white Americans who have ancestors that were on these shores before yours. Does that make them "more American" than you, just as you are "more American" than me?
Your rights here? Why, they're no different than mine.
posted on October 5, 2000 11:16:18 PM new
peachy77 - Actually your post is another reason why some Americans see no problem with those items. But when we place them in the history where they properly belong all of a sudden networker67 is the bad guy. Guess who the founder of Shepard Hardware is, A German immigrant.
So I guess some of those German immigrants saw a way to make a quick buck when they got here...lol...lol.
Same as I told James, you got to know your history to keep the conversation in its proper perspective. Why do you think the Union Army burnt most of the South down? Why do you think they reopened immigration after the war. Yeah Yeah they give you that Industrial Revolution arguement in College History. But actually it allows for whole generations of Whites to say they didn't have anything to do with it. And with time the ones who were a part are nolonger the true White Majority. But since America has never been to keen on immigration from countries of African dominance. We get a whole new wave of White Americans with no new Black Americans except through birth.
See race discussions are always sensitive because very few African Americans have their historical records straight and most Whites have no traces to the period historically. Makes it hard for each other to see the others perspective. You say you nor those before you share in none of the blame but they and you benefitted and accepted the benefit without questioning or caring how or why you got it.
posted on October 5, 2000 11:22:26 PM newSee race discussions are always sensitive because very few African Americans have their historical records straight and most Whites have no traces to the period historically. Makes it hard for each other to see the others perspective. You say you nor those before you share in none of the blame but they and you benefitted and accepted the benefit without questioning or caring how or why you got it.
posted on October 5, 2000 11:26:31 PM new
There is something about the New Auctionwatch that is amazing.
When I first came to this board last year this kind of discussion would have devolved badly by page 2.
Letmetellyou!
I keep hearing on all the collectable shows how "popular" this kind of collecting is.
I find it amazingly repellent.
Though perhaps these items need to be kept saved or archived so that we understand where America was, where it is going, how language and culture evolve.
We are all faceless, there is little that reveals us beyond what we chose to say here. To treat such language as less inflammatory because it common for some segment of the culture to use it more than another is a specious arument at best.
James Allan's book [u]Without Sanctuary[/u] collects and curates a part of America we wish never happened. Maybe because the denial is so strong ("my child never heard the word" ergo it doesn't exist) that things like the mind-numbing events happen in Jasper Texas...in Sierra Leone...in Bosnia still happen.
We NEED to get our minds around it.
It's wrong, it's hate language, it's not my culture, it's not in my daily lexicon.
I think you can sell it without using hate language. True collectors will find it. I don't question their motives. If you read about how Mr. Allan gathered the photos you would be amazed at the myriad of people he met. I imagine the collectors on ebay run the same gamet.
posted on October 5, 2000 11:39:48 PM newnetworker67 On that same point, I do QUESTION and CARE how things came to be the way they are. That's part of the reason I say let's DON'T erase those things which remind us of how the country evolved. We all need to see what happened, so that we won't head back in that direction. Every person who lives in this country should KNOW what went on...
I feel that it is equally prejudiced to put all white people in the wrong -- if our families weren't here, involved in the slavery and other atrocities-- because if we weren't a part of the problem back then, we came to the country later and enjoed the benefits of immigration to the country? Are you not enjoying the benefits of being in this country now also?
So a person who comes here from Africa should benefit from Affirmative action and other advances, and be guilt free-- But a person who comes here from Germany needs to be sorry right away? That's the kind of thinking that holds EVERYONE back. That's another way to draw a line and force us to treat each other differently.
An immigrant from Africa is no less responsible for what happened, and how we benefit by the changes than is an immigrant from a Primarily anglo country. So that argument won't fly very far.
My problem is that you are STEREOTYPING that all white people are in the wrong, right off the bat. If we weren't here doing it, we benefitted from the whole deal. Guess what? So did you, and so does every immigrant, black, white, Asian, Indian....
posted on October 6, 2000 12:00:07 AM new
Capriole: You summed it nicely.
Networker: I think I know and understand where it is that you are coming from, and the message you are tying to make.
Race relations, the history, etc., are painful areas of discourse. There is no way to deny that racism continues to permeate our nation. There was one poster, I believe, who showed all of us that realism. Still, most folks here were able to discuss the issue without malice, or at least, without resorting to name-calling. That, I believe, is a good thing, and something to take notice.
So networker, I applaude your efforts to place things in a historical framework. And others did as well. But you cannot lump one group of people or label them, simply because they have a differing viewpoint. That does not make them any more racist than the man on the moon.
Now, I 'spose that I just can't understand why some of these items are deemed collectibles. Never would I even consdier having one of them in my home, let alone displayed for all to see. They mock my heritage, my family and our legacy.
Yet, I do realize that folk, both black and white, collect these odd items. Networker, don't castigate peeps for that. I know, we can argue until blue in the face (is that possible?). But peeps is peeps, man, don't broad brush, 'em, K?
posted on October 6, 2000 01:38:30 AM new
Maybe you need to talk to AW tech joice? I almost got suspended by Michelle cuz the "checker" couldn't read the f-word in caps. I assumed the thing could catch it. Maybe a few bugs to work out?
:\\\"Crystalline Sliver cannot be the target of spells or abilities.
posted on October 6, 2000 06:07:01 AM newscorpiogal,
Maybe I have too many scruples to make the bucks that you do. But
I would rather be poor and principled.
About the category...Since the junk is not really black memorabilia,
but rather the history of white ignorance why not document this
history with it's appropriate category?
posted on October 6, 2000 06:19:04 AM new
HJW....since your post seemed to be directed solely to me, I feel the need to respond...
I have no scruples because I made some serious money (to me) on a bunch of rings I bought? I had NO IDEA of their value...I put them up on eBay for $1 with NO RESERVE...the auction community decided what they were worth. Not me.
As to you preferring to be "poor but principled"...whatever tickles your pickle. I prefer being able to pay my mortgage and enjoy a few luxuries. "Poor but principled." BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
I ONLY sell jewelry. I don't sell objects like the ones discussed here. I only list with an opening bid of $1, nomatter WHAT I pay for it.
I hope this clears it up for you.
As to renaming the category...feel free to suggest it. Perhaps it could be broken up into several different sub-categories. Since I don't sell any objects that would go into it, I will leave it to others to tell eBay what the section should be called.
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