posted on October 6, 2000 06:44:48 AM new
Any conflict results in the use of "propaganda" images to demean the opponent ... look at the way the enemy is portrayed in any war.
If you don't like these things (I find them invariably fugg-ugly, but useful examples of the culture of the era no matter which group is being maligned - be it Irish, Japanese, American Indians, Jews, Arabs, or politicians) then you are free to not sell them, buy them, and not deal with those that do.
But do not expect the rest of the world to change their practices to make YOU more comfortable. YOU DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO NEVER BE OFFENDED. Get used to it.
posted on October 6, 2000 07:11:29 AM new
abacaxi
This thread was started to find out how
people feel about the use of the words, niger, coon, picaninny and niglet.
I have the right to state how I feel about that practice
I am not alone in my opinion. And as you say,
Get used to it
posted on October 6, 2000 07:40:40 AM new
abacaxi,
I give you credit for calling these objects
something other than history.
As you stated, "propaganda" images to demean the opponent
That's good!
posted on October 6, 2000 08:22:57 AM new
HJW -
It's also history. I have the bill of sale from when my great-grandfather bought my great-grandmother in the 1850s. She is described as a "light complexioned house nigger, age 17".
One can track the status of almost any group and their level of acceptance by the majority by the way they are portrayed in advertising, toys, editorial cartoons in the media, and entertainment. And you can't start a good war without first de-humanizing the other side ... look at the portrayals of the Brits by the Americans during the Revoloution, the Germans (by the Allies), and the Allies (by the Axis).
The death knell for segregation was "I Spy" on TV - a popular show with the Cosby character portrayed as intelligent and capable.
I'm not bothered by the use of derogatory terms - if misapplied, they reflect badly upon the user's IQ and attitudes, but it's hard to insult a group who decides they will no longer be offended by a term.
posted on October 6, 2000 09:06:53 AM new
figmente - Censorship is a dangerous thing, anytime a group is able to promote its agenda over the democratic process it is a dangerous thing.
However although it is only word it has a lot of power. It has power because of items like we are discussing. It has power when it is painted on a sign with the words go home. It gets even more power when just because a person happens to be what the word describes it causes another person to change what they would normally say or do in a situation.
Adolf Hitler and his Nazi party were masters of giving words unbelievable power. It all starts with making the word denote something disliked, and from there attaching/blaming everything that is wrong with the world on that word. It was said earlier half the problem would eliminated if the word was associated to something nice. I saw the same comedy show and got a great laugh out of it.
Someone asked would it be okay for PWT or Honkey to be used to describe items. Well I have to say no. But think about PWT for a minute, if you call a White person that; they are upset especially if they happen to be middle-class and have a job. The items have a historical place, the colored only, white only signs, have a historical place. It all has a historical place but ask ourselves do we in the preservation and money changing in these artifacts have to use the bad parts of their history to sell them. Those banks:
Jolly Nigger Mechanical Bank.
J. E. Stevens, Negro Parody Bank.
Shepard Hardware, Negro Parody Bank
Since the Jolly Nigger bank was made by different companies. It isn't an accurate description to just call it Jolly Nigger. I visted the web site of the Mechanical Bank Collectors Society. That Bank is one of the most sought after Mechanical Banks. Guess what they don't display a photo of one on the site. I said that to say this, it can be described without the hateful words. A collector of the items knows that the person is talking about a Jolly Nigger Bank. So sales wouldn't be lost. Let's think about that for a minute.
Let's place he items in their true historical place. They were designed to parody blacks and humor whites. They served that purpose well. As such they are now and forever parody items. So why can't we classify them as parody items and remove the Nigger from an accurate title. Although called that we all accept that they are misnamed and were misnamed when created. A collector of Mechanical Banks, collect them for the things the Bank does when it collects money. So to make one roll its Yellow Eyes ( an indicator of the medical condition Jaundice) must be pretty special. Now a book, sheet music, play manuscript, or record is pretty difficult to treat in this matter. However since in English we place titles in quotations to indicate as such. Why not make it a requirement in listing an item that is a title. And we make this across the board all books, records, period.
"There are no complex problems only comlex solutions to be developed".
posted on October 6, 2000 12:45:46 PM new
Hello Networker67
You wrote...
"Censorship is a dangerous thing, anytime a group is able to promote its agenda over the democratic process it is a dangerous thing."
But aren't you arguing that folks should censor certain words from auction titles or from their everyday speech because someone else finds them offensive, regardless of the context?
How is the use of an insulting trademark or derogatory brand name in an auction title comparable to calling someone by that same insulting or derogatory word?
posted on October 6, 2000 01:13:24 PM new
codasaurus - It really helps keep the thread in a general direction of finding solutions if fly by night posters (like you). Would first read the entire thread. It really saves the repetition of saying the same thing over and over again.
Your reference to trademarks since the trademarks in question were registered in 1882, when no one cared about the N-Word except a large minority that was through lack of education unable to issue the challenges to such a Trademark. Your attempt to say its okay because it has a trademark is invalid. Because since 1882 the original trademark on the original Shepard Hardware product has expired and not been renewed and can't be reinstated because of its use of the N-Word. A more radical solution to whole thing is one that folks like you might not like.
How's about legislation that transfers all such Trademarks, Copyrights, and Patents. To the United States Government to include all residual income now and forever. That solution gets the word off of record covers of Rap Artists, off of Books of authors regardless of race, creed, or color, and gets those items either renamed to be copied or ceases their production and sale at a profit. And it allows the Government to Legally profit from any use of a word that the Supreme Court says constitutes hateful speech. Heck we can apply it to Jew, Polock, Spic, and the whole lot of the names.
No one would use them because there would be no profit. And if those who just want to be able to use them under their First Admendment Rights could then support the same Government that gives them that right with all of their profits. Since no one is that desperate to just be able to say something. That solves the problem once and for all. Funny thing I learned about Capitalist in America remove the profit and you remove their interest in it.
The Supreme Court has already set the Bar on Hateful Speech so no need in going around the horn on Censorship. Besides they built a canal to alleviate that problem. With that have you got anything useful to contribute or say. Or are you satisfied with your failed attempt to bug me.
posted on October 6, 2000 01:18:01 PM newit allows the Government to Legally profit from any use of a word that the Supreme Court says constitutes hateful speech. Heck we can apply it to Jew...
Not to nit pic, but calling a Jew (me for example) a Jew is not hateful speech, but accurate. We wear the title happily and proudly.
posted on October 6, 2000 01:39:18 PM new
jamesoblivion - Actually I was trying to cover all of the bases. We can strike that one from the list anyone else want their group removed? LOL...LOL...LOL
I pray you got the gist of the post and was poking at networker67 in a humorous way?
Oh yeah I wasn't ignoring you on your question about benefitting from America. I just assumed that you already knew my answer. A resounding YES in fact I find new ways to benefit everyday. I think it a shame to be in the land of plenty and not get any. Wouldn't you agree.
And on the generation thing, summarizing the generational history coupled with United States Immigration History and policy helps others understand the indifference. It also sheds a little light on this current trend in Congress to restrict immigration since it now comes from South of the Border and the Southern Atlantic as opposed to from across the North Atlantic.
Want to answer to what makes you American se the next post.
posted on October 6, 2000 01:53:30 PM new
Networker,
I read the entire topic. You still haven't addressed my question to you.
How is the use of a word in an auction title to accurately describe the item the same as using that word to address a person with the intent to insult or demean that person?
posted on October 6, 2000 01:58:23 PM new
Words' usage, meaning, and connotation varies over time. This is especially true of "slangy" words. I think that the Jim Crow attitudes behind the repugnance of the word "nigger" are sufficiently discredited that this word has only a little residual power.
Frank and accurate description of a 112 year old artifact does not constitute hateful speech.
A word has no more power than it is given by the people who use it "and" than it is given by the person hearing it.
There is a lot of overkill on how powerful this word is. Such as - proposals to boycott publishers of dictionaries which include it (no matter how disapprovingly defined). Many other book bannings (such as Twain). Dismissal (rescinded) of the D.C. official for using the word "niggardly" (sounds too much like ... )
Words usage, meaning, and connotation varies over time. As hateful slur this one is getting so old and weak that it doesn't deserve the attention.
posted on October 6, 2000 02:08:42 PM new
One of the reasons narrow-minded, hateful people say some of the things they do is that it gives them a sense of power over others when their comments can provoke a reaction. You have a choice when confronted with such people. You can become angry and outraged, or you can think to yourself "What a jerk" and go on your way. That you don't confront these bigots at every turn doesn't mean that you are giving in or condoning their words, rather you are according them all the attention they and their ideas deserve.
As to the subject of this thread... although I do not know for a fact, not having personal knowledge of all those posting the types of auctions being discussed, I would think it a stretch to consider that these sellers are using such words in any attempt to mock or humiliate. In my opinion, it's all a tempest in a teapot- of course, you are all free to come to an entirely different conclusion.
By the way- has anybody entertained the idea of inviting one of these sellers to the discussion, to ask them their thoughts? That might shed a lot more light on the subject than continued talk about the assumed motives behind these auction listings.
posted on October 6, 2000 02:38:02 PM newBy the way- has anybody entertained the idea of inviting one of these sellers to the discussion, to ask them their thoughts? That might shed a lot more light on the subject than continued talk about the assumed motives behind these auction listings.
I've sold the JN banks in the past, and will again if the opportunity presents itself.
And yes, they contained the words "Jolly Nigger Bank" in the title.
Why? Seems rather obvious to me, because that's what collectors refer to them as, and those are the words they use when doing online searches.
Networker can ramble on all he wants about what these items "in his opinion" should be called, but seeing as he doesn't/can't [unless you are now allowed back on eBay?] bid on these items, it doesn't amount to much. IMO
Certain key words are used by vintage bank collectors, and there's just no getting around that.
posted on October 6, 2000 02:44:01 PM newCertain key words are used by vintage bank collectors, and there's just no getting around that.
I suspected that would generally be the case. It wouldn't make sense for a seller to list his items in a manner in which buyers of those items would not be able to find them in a search.
posted on October 6, 2000 02:51:20 PM new
codasaurus--you said:
"How is the use of a word in an auction title to accurately describe the item the same as using that word to address a person with the intent to insult or demean that person?"
But I beg to differ--what is accurately describe? And can an item be accurately described without racial slander? I think so.
posted on October 6, 2000 02:52:15 PM new
I just acquired a toothpick holder in the image of a black woman wearing a white apron and kerchief.
I had intended to list this with the titl of "Black Mammy Toothpick Holder", but after reading this thread, I wonder if that would be offensive.
Any thoughts?
posted on October 6, 2000 02:54:02 PM new
codasaurus - All I can say is go back and read the thread again. My position on the items and how they should be listed for ebay's search is clearly posted and articulated. You will find your answer and my position.
I'll even give you a hint see page three of the thread. In fact I state my postion three times on that page. So go back and read again is all I can tell you. Everyone else seems to understand my position. They might not agree but they understand it.
So I have told you where to find your answer go back and read the posts on page three. Then come back and tell me and the rest of the thread why you don't feel your answer is there. Since two of the three posts are kinda long I'll give you 20 minutes from this reply to find your answer. After that you go back on ignore to avoid disrupting intelligent rational discussion with ebay Q and A nonsense. Haven't you moved on with your life yet?
By the way take me off ignore so you can see my posts and get your answer. That's the only reason I can see why you can't see it. Other than ones that would be grounds for moderation if I posted them.
posted on October 6, 2000 03:08:57 PM new
Fritzdick -- maybe you should say White woman with Deep Tan...
OTOH On another thread someone used the word "negger"... he seemed to refer to someone who gave a NEG FB but I was shocked!!
posted on October 6, 2000 03:11:45 PM new
jeanyu - Trust me on this one. He is looking for something else and not an answer that has been clearly articulated throughout the thread.
As said on page three. There has to be a way to sell these items without allowing the same items to continue their spread of messages of comical insult of American Citizens. In fact I give a way to do it as far as the banks are concerned. So either he forgot to turn off ignore and can't see them or he isn't bothering to read them.
His next reply will provide an answer to that question. I hope he chooses his words carefully. But I suspect he won't. he has this annoying and bad habit of using off sarcastic remarks designed to insult. Although it gets me warned I always prefer to stand up and say what should be said.
posted on October 6, 2000 03:54:48 PM new
Back to more interesting things about this topic.
reddeer - What I can or cannot do on ebay isn't exactly what I call part of the topic. Besides how do you know to any degree of certain fact what I can or cannot do on ebay. Besides all opinions matter on issues such as this. Especially the informed ones.
mrpotatoehead - If the listing of the items changed the buyers of the items would still find them. Why because the buyers are collectors so they know what they are looking for. Next off everyone searches the web in this manner, Specific then General, When you use a search engine don't you look for the specific and if no hits then try the general place you would look for something? If you don't try it you might more things when you search.
fritzdick - To be honest you could actually leave the Black off and would still come up in a search engine just by the word "Mammy" and just so you know there are no "White Mammy" items so even in a general search the person would assume it is Black. Just so you know. But Black Mammy Toothpick Holder even in the context of this thread isn't offensive. But since we are talking about respect and sensitivity in how we list these peices of Jim Crow Memorabilia why not just say mammy toothpick holder. In fact a current search of White mammy fetches you 10 items. A search of Black Mammy fetches 266 items, and plain old mammy fetches you 690 items. Of which all of the White Mammy, and Black Mammy were included. So plain old mammy opens your item up to a larger search thus more intertestd bidders. So you decide what to do with it.
posted on October 6, 2000 04:44:43 PM new
reddeer - Well like I said previously you then move on to the General Search when the specific one does not work. Guess what mechanical bank gets you 442 items to include all 15 of the current Jolly Nigger banks so like I said earlier.
You are just happy to be able to type "Nigger" and use it without disdain for your actions.
Your last post only reinforces that attitude. Got any more attempts to defend the ignorance of using Nigger in a title to describe what also happens to be a mechanical bank.
Besides like codasaurus you should read the posts.
I did the exact same thing with the Black Mammy and showed that user that he might get more people seeing the item if the black was left off. Same with the bank. So your weak attempt to prove your point only reinforced mine. Face it guy my University of Maryland (Munich Campus)/Northwestern University education has given me all the tools to deal with the likes of you.
I know this bothers you, "but face it we aren't those mammies and jolly niggers anymore". So if you derive some pleasure at being able to use nigger in an auction title, By all means enjoy it.
I bet the sellers who uses mechanical bank gets more hits than the one who is enjoying the simple pleasure of typing nigger.
posted on October 6, 2000 05:10:03 PM newAfter that you go back on ignore to avoid disrupting intelligent rational discussion with ebay Q and A nonsense.
I keep searching for the portions of your spiels that involve "intelligent rational discussion" , but for some strange reason I just can't find them?
Seems more to me like anyone that offers proof that these words are not offensive to many people when used to descibe an antique bank, or that the collectors of said items search for them using certain strings of words, you start to run off at the mouth.
What, now I'm supposed to be impressed with your educational background? BTW - what exactly is "the likes of me" supposed to mean?
Last year on AW, eBay's Michael Wilson, senior vice president for product development and site operations, stated that over 80% of eBay users searched by "Title" only.
So guess who's auctions will be found when the collectors are doing the searches?
Of course there are those that are smart enough to use a general search, but there also those that aren't. Not everyone wants to wade through 400+ auctions on eBay, nor does everyone who collects these banks search "just" the eBay site when looking for them.
I know collectors who use search bots that cover all the major online sites with one click of the mouse. FYI - there are 700+
mechanical banks listed on eBay at the moment.
Typing the word nigger doesn't give me some sort of personal thrill, nor does it offend me. There isn't a word created that can offend me at this point in my life.
I'm sorry that you feel I enjoy using the N word, but you're oh so wrong. You have no idea what you're talking about, nor do I need to defend my use of the word, to the likes of you.
Being Black, doesn't justify your comments in this thread, to me, or anyone else.
posted on October 6, 2000 05:30:33 PM new
networker67,
Earlier today, you were advised to review the Community Guidelines before posting again. Since then, your posts have continued to be combative and disruptive. Because fewer than 30 days have passed since your last suspension, your posting privileges have been suspended for an additional 30 day period.
If you wish to appeal this decision, please email [email protected].
posted on October 6, 2000 05:59:26 PM new
Shame on you, reddeer, for posting a reasonable opinion counter to what networker has instructed you regarding the proper way things should be done ! His posts, after all, are those of an educated and intelligent person (he has told us so himself many times, and who could doubt it after noting the overall quality of his posts ). Want to place a bet on how long he stays on the board THIS time ?
Seriously, though, I agree with you and some others. IMHO it's best left to sellers and buyers familiar with certain items to determine how they wish to present or search for those items (perhaps with the exception of blatant keyword spamming). As abacaxi noted at the start of this page, "You do not have the right to never be offended". I find it fairly easy to avoid the things that offend me or to ignore them if they catch me by surprise.
edit: Never mind about the bet. I left the computer too long before finishing this post and apparently Pat read my mind...is this allowed ?
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside a dog, it's too dark to read.
[ edited by cathammer on Oct 6, 2000 06:02 PM ]
[ edited by cathammer on Oct 6, 2000 06:12 PM ]
). Want to place a bet on how long he stays on the board THIS time ?