posted on October 22, 2000 10:48:11 AM newAs a buyer I always leave feedback when I receive the item and find that it was as described...IF...the seller has left feedback for me.
Can we play "what if" here?
What if you bought an item from me? You receive the item and are completely satisfied and happy with your purchase. However, you will not leave feedback for me at that time, because I will not have left feedback for you. Do you email me to let me know that you received the item and are happy? If not, when I email you in 2 weeks to inquire if you received the item and are satisfied, do you respond?
I have no problem with doing feedback FIRST. I just want to know that the buyer isn't going to reciprocate by leaving a negative for a problem I wasn't aware of or that wasn't my fault (contrary to popular rumor, the recent increase in USPS shipping damage is NOT something I authorized ) or by being a total wretch to deal with until the problem is worked out. I make a reasonable effort to find out if you received your item, so I can go first. Does that work for you, and do you give me the info I need to post feedback, or will you only leave feedback if I blindly leave it first?
posted on October 22, 2000 11:00:39 AM new
jakemelon:
>When payment is made, MY PART OF THE TRANSACTION is complete. Seller who is fair and runs a legitimate business will leave feedback immediately upon receipt of funds.
I leave feedback once a week. You might have your merchandise before (or after) you get feedback from me. Is this REALLY a problem?
As for "When payment is made, MY PART OF THE TRANSACTION is complete", you can't be serious. The final thing you are expected to do is to be reasonable if there is some sort of problem.
If UPS or USPS loses or damages a package, will you do your part in collecting the insurance, or will you just go ballistic on a seller? Are you going to nit-pik about a hairline scratch on a 10 year old non-collectable item? Are you going to demand a "partial refund", but turn down a full refund because you want to keep the merchandise?
posted on October 22, 2000 11:04:26 AM newpickersangel
In the past two years I have always left positive feedback as soon as payment was received. I also ship the day after payment is received regardless of type payment received.
I have never had a bad check so I will continue to ship in this manner, but the unjustified negative left a bitter taste in my mouth. I am sure the customer was aware that there could be no retalitory negative so they chose to leave me one.
I have many repeat customers I will always leave positive feedback for ASAP, but for the others I think I have learned my lesson the hard way.
I will soon have 1,000 feedback, so needless to say most of my customers have been satisfied with their purchase.
posted on October 22, 2000 11:15:34 AM new
When I sell, I leave feedback when I receive payment from the buyer. Does this leave me open to an undeserved neg by a crazy bidder? Maybe so, but in over 400 transactions, it hasn't happened yet. Maybe it's the type of items I sell, maybe I'm just lucky... who knows?
Considering that, and the fact that trying to keep track of items for which I have not left feedback (waiting for bidder to receive it and respond to me) is a major pain in the butt, not to mention a big waste of time (IMO), I find it is much easier to just leave the feedback when the check comes. In the meantime, I'll worry about a problem bidder when I get one, and make all my other buyers happy by leaving them a comment right away.
I do understand the opposite point of view, and I consider it every bit as valid as mine- I just prefer my method because I find it easier.
As a buyer, I would naturally prefer that the seller left feedback when they received my payment, but if they don't, no big deal. I still email them that I've received the item, and that I've left them feedback. Sometimes, they reciprocate, sometimes not. If they don't, would I refuse to bid on their items in the future? Only if I wasn't satisfied with the item I received. After all, I'm bidding on items in order to buy them, not to accumulate feedback.
For what it's worth, here's the system that works for me:
As a buyer or seller, I leave feedback when I feel it is appropriate, based on my evaluation of the transaction. Whether or not the other party leaves feedback for me never enters into the decision. I find this approach eliminates all the stress of the "you go first" encounters everybody seems to hate.
Of course, this approach will not work for control freaks, but nothing's perfect...
edited... ubb
[ edited by mrpotatoheadd on Oct 22, 2000 11:20 AM ]
posted on October 22, 2000 11:39:12 AM new
For those who feel that the buyer's obligation is met by sending payment:
How should a seller deal with a buyer who won't even respond to an email inquiry about receipt of shipment? As a seller, I feel obligated to let other sellers know that they shouldn't expect anything (good or bad) beyond a check or MO from this buyer. Is it entirely unfair to leave a NEUTRAL comment that says "Paid promptly. Never acknowledged receipt or responded to emails after shipment."?
posted on October 22, 2000 11:53:07 AM newWhen payment is made, MY PART OF THE TRANSACTION is complete.
No, the first phase of your part of the transaction is complete. How well (or poorly) you handle any issues or disagreements after you receive the item is also part of the transaction.
Feedback is transaction related, not payment related.
The transaction begins with the seller's EOA and ends upon notification that the buyer has received the merchandise and is happy with it. If the buyer is not happy with the merchandise, the transaction is not yet complete. The buyer needs to make a good-faith effort to allow the seller the opportunity to make the buyer happy. If the buyer refuses to work with the seller in a reasonable manner to finish the transaction, the buyer deserves a neg, which can't be left if the seller has already left a positive.
As a seller, I use feedback not only to see if a buyer is a fast payer. I have had several buyers who paid with lightning speed but tried to scam me later. How a customer deals with sellers throughout the course of a transaction is just as important to me as how quickly they pay.
[ edited by abingdoncomputers on Oct 22, 2000 11:58 AM ]
posted on October 22, 2000 12:03:38 PM newHow a customer deals with sellers throughout the course of a transaction is just as important to me as how quickly they pay.
Good point. If all sellers left feedback immediately on receipt of payment, how would any of us ever know which users are prone to post-payment problems? That's not a situation I'd want to be part of. I think I'll continue leaving feedback after the buyer acknowledges receipt.
posted on October 22, 2000 12:08:43 PM newramaged The buyer should not have left you negative fb that wasn't true, but surely you can understand someone being irritated upon finding that the seller is selling the item for less on their webpage! I would have left you a neutral "Item can be purchased cheaper on seller's website."
posted on October 22, 2000 12:27:42 PM new
london4:
>but surely you can understand someone being irritated upon finding that the seller is selling the item for less on their webpage
If it is sold on the webpage for less than the OPENING bid, yeah, but ebay is an auction. You bid what you think a thing is worth, and if you latter find it cheaper, oh well....
(I find items cheaper than what I paid lots of times. Is K-mart or Wal-mart cheaper this week on a car battery?)
The starting bid was $12.99. Two bidders biding against each other raised the ending bid to $20.50 The underbidder bid $20.00.
My web site price is $15.00. This is the statement I received by email from the winning bidder;
[b]Just noticed that on your web site you sell this same item for $15 !!
Very unhappy that I did not see that first. Any chance you will honor that
price? I have been eyeing one of the xxxx xxxxxxxx and xxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx
(with the xxxxxx)...[/b]
My Response;
As your merchandise went into the morning mail. I will give you a 10% discount
towards a purchase from my website so as not to be unfair to the underbidder who
bid $20.00 on this auction.
Best regards,
xxxxxx
It is not my fault that they chose to bid over the web site price without looking at the web site first. When they found that they could have gotten the item cheaper then they wanted the cheaper price.
They even sent another email after the 10% offer wanting me to give them a 10% refund on the $20.50 item they had won.
In other words they wanted a discount because they overbid my web site price before looking at my web site.
posted on October 22, 2000 12:31:40 PM new
The reasoning of not leaving feedback till the buyer leaves feedback excapes me. As a buyer if I see a seller with a neg I don't run to the buyer's feedback to see if he got negged back, I look at the response to the neg. If a seller has 1% negs and responds in a polite and professional manner to the neg then they've done all they can do. If a seller thinks that leaving the buyer a neg will change my views on them they are mistaken.
The buyer has trusted me with money, I find it only reasonable for me to trust them with positive feedback. Sellers that refuse to trust me with feedback won't be getting feedback from me.
posted on October 22, 2000 12:37:17 PM new
ronjesszla
You wrote:
"If the person I transact with deserves a good rating based on their performance, then that is what I give them."
Just consider that before leaving ANY feedback on a buyer, their "performance" has not ended until they contact you that the item is received, and satisfied or that there is some problem.
Remember, the transaction is not completed until the item is in the hands of the buyer. As the sender, how do you know it is completed unless the Buyer lets you know.
As you have seen, there are many comments already up here regarding the buyer posting Negs or complaining after their feedback has been posted.
This could be legitimate, or in some cases there could be some fraud involved.
But in either case, if the Seller were to withhold feedback on the buyer until the transaction were fully complete, it may have an effect on what the Buyer does (especially if there is an element of fraud involved).
I wait until the buyer lets me know they have the item. In fact, after a week if I have not heard from them, I email asking if ws received and if all is OK. My feedback is then posted.
As a buyer, I will notify the Seller that I have received the item, and am happy with it (and, in only one case unhappy with the packing whech actually CAUSED the damage). If they have not posted feedback, I LTK that I will post such after they post for me.
I do believe that it is the responsibility of the Seller to post Positive Feedback for the Buyer first. But only after the buyer has fully completed the transaction.
Mr Jim
you wrote:
"Yes, absolutely, it is fair." this was concerning a Neg that was left by a buyer because the item had not been received.
When I made that post, in the interest of brevity (as you can see, I tend to be verbose), I neglected to say that the Buyer never notified my Friend/Seller that the item did not arrive. He did return the money once he knew it had not been received.
Did the Buyer, whom was quick to post a Neg, make a correction? Of course NOT!!!
As a result of that, I offer the Buyer the opportunity to purchase insurance at the USPS rate. I clearly state that his/her worry will be with the USPS since I do pack properly (in fact tend to overdo that as well).
As for the package getting lost, If it is addressed properly, and with the proper return address, I am sure the percentage with the USPS is very small.
However, it is the Buyer's choice, and therefore, I believe it should the Buyer's responsibility if insurance is refused and the item is lost in transit.
posted on October 22, 2000 12:51:42 PM new
This is another reason the negative I got was unjustified; The item was insured Apparently there was nothing wrong with the item or they would have contacted me to file an insurance claim.
I think that they were irritated because I wouldn't send them $5.50 that they had bid over the web site price.
With 987 positives and 2 negative comments in two years I believe I am doing my part as far as customer satisfaction goes.
posted on October 22, 2000 03:18:00 PM new
I just knew that the "who goes first" debate would bring out a litany of sellers who have been done wrong.
Mr. Jim hit it right on the head- You're letting 1% of customers dictate how you serve the other 99%. You guys say yourself in your posts "I have only one neg but this is how it came."
As mostly a buyer, I have stopped posting feedback first. I frankly don't have time or the inclination to write back saying I've received the package. I have NEVER heard of any mail order company that requires this.
I really don't care about feedback too much, but I have no interest in spending my valuable time helping your feedback if you haven't helped mine. I certainly don't recommend a restaurant to my friends where the management did the minimum servicewise and didn't thank me for my business. No matter how good the food may be.
I think many of you sellers should realize that if you play stupid games with the customers, they will go away. YOU, not the customers will be worse for that.
Don't want my business? That's ok. I'll spend my $$$$ (which I pay in days, by the way) with other people. I'll won't run out of people to take it before you run out of people to pay it.
posted on October 22, 2000 03:34:12 PM newWhat if you bought an item from me? You receive the item and are completely satisfied and happy with your purchase. However, you will not leave feedback for me at that time, because I will not have left feedback for you. Do you email me to let me know that you received the item and are happy? If not, when I email you in 2 weeks to inquire if you received the item and are satisfied, do you respond?
I would definitely respond to your note. I would also respond if you sent a note when the item was shipped to let you know that it had been received. Often, though, I send my payment and hear absolutely nothing from the seller. After a week or so I come home from work one day and find a package on my doorstep. If I've received feedback at that point, I'll leave it. If I haven't received feedback and have heard nothing from the seller, I figure they don't particularly care so I don't worry about it either.
Again, when I've sold things, it's been on a small-time basis. But I send a note to the buyer saying that I shipped the item so they have some idea that it's on the way. I also say that I left them feedback and would appreciate it if they would do the same. I'm sure for some of the big-time sellers this is an extra step that they don't have time for.
posted on October 22, 2000 04:13:30 PM new
reamercollector: Don't make the mistake of thinking its the big time sellers- the most successful ebay sellers virtually always leave feedback. They realize that impeccable customer service is why they are successful.
Look at the feedback profiles for "shooting star" sellers- many have left 3 times as many feedbacks as received. Are they here crying about an occasional jerk? No! I guess they realize it's part of being in business.
posted on October 22, 2000 05:42:19 PM new
When I am the seller, I usually post feedback after I receive payment or the check clears. I promptly notify them after they win my auction with the details; I notify them when payment is received; and I notify them when the item has been shipped. I ask in return that they notify me when the item has been received safely and if they are not satisfied, they may return the item. As a buyer, I send payment out immediately and let the seller when payment has been sent. I also let the seller know when the merchandise has been received, asking them if they would please provide feedback on our transaction and I will do the same. They reply saying they will provide feedback, and I wait for them toprovide feedback and then I post positive feedback. If they don't post feedback after I ask them to, I don't post feedback either. If they won't take the time to post feedback on a good transaction, I won't either. I work hard at being a good seller and a good buyer and rely on feedback. I've had very good luck with buyers posting feedback, but have had numerous sellers not bother to tell me that payment was received, tell me when the item was shipped or leave feedback. There's been too many times I have left feedback first (as a buyer) and get no response from the seller. So...if I don't get feedback from the seller after asking them, I won't leave it.
posted on October 22, 2000 06:17:49 PM new
99 percent of the time I leave feedback when they send me the money. However, if I get a weirdo vibe from the buyer or they seem really green, I wait. I find that this compromise position works well most of the time since with many of the problem buyers I've had, they have given me indications right from the first email that they were, well, kinda strange. Or maybe I have good intuition. Who knows. Anyway, it's kept me out of problems so far. The one time I had a bad situation (buyer unhappy and wanting a refund, which I don't give and that's stated in my TOS) I replied so professionally and neutrally that I think the buyer got embarassed and never contacted me again regarding her allegedly "too small" item. I had already left her a positive so I'm glad it resolved itself. I could have been in the same position as some of the sellers here, with an unwarrented neg.
posted on October 22, 2000 09:53:01 PM new
Question:
If I am a seller and leave feedback for a customer when the item ships. Then customer leaves me a neg for something completely unreasonable, can I go back and leave him a neg for being unreasonable, after already leaving a pos?
Can I leave feedback more than once for the same auction??
posted on October 22, 2000 10:11:20 PM new
COZMO, I dont think you can change your rating on the feedback, although I've never tried it. I think you can respond and defend yourself on the neg that you receive though, although I've never had to do this either. This is just the jist I am getting from all of the other responses in this thread. Good luck!!
posted on October 22, 2000 10:47:29 PM new
I have been reading this thread from the beginning and I wonder if there are any conclusions to this question.---
Who leaves feedback first? I'll be waiting.
[ edited by Libra63 on Oct 22, 2000 10:48 PM ]
[ edited by Libra63 on Oct 22, 2000 10:51 PM ]
posted on October 22, 2000 10:51:31 PM new
I always leave fb when we ship and considered the customer upheld their end of the transaction by making payment.
I don't hold people up for their fb, if you ship fast most will, some people are just lazy and won't no matter what. Any extra time is spent on deadbeats or other things.
However! I didn't know that by leaving the pos when it ships there is no longer an option for me to rate the seller (can't leave a neg).
We haven't had any problems other than the occasional hot head or ahole, but usually after a couple emails you can calm them down or offer a refund.
I've always considered fb was for two reasons, for the buyer AND the seller. Its for the buyer for obvious reasons, but most sellers will at least occasionally ck a buyers fb's. If a buyer is unreasonable beyond resolve I wanna know about it.
If I get one of those people I almost consider it my duty to let other dealers know about it by leaving an honest, straight forward neg fb (only had to do that once all year).
If I am closing that option by leaving fb when ships, may change that policy. I always considered the buyer upheld their end when payment received, but if he/she is a scammer or total jerk after receiving package, people should know about it.
Any comments would be appreciated
Cozmo
posted on October 23, 2000 06:20:57 AM new
I'm not sure there is a definite conclusion, but it would be interesting to know what categories each respondent buys/sells in. I have a feeling that what one is dealing in affects one's opinion on that the matter. I sell collectibles, mostly glass and pottery. Sellers in those categories have to be more worried about post-payment problems due to breakage, requests for partial refund, buyers trying to switch items for refund, etc., than would someone who sells CD's or clothing. Just my guess, but I'd bet that the buyers/sellers who are absolutely dead set on EVERY seller leaving feedback on receipt of payment are dealing in categories where shipping damage and buyer scams are not that much of a problem, once the seller has payment in hand. I believe it's important to remember that Ebay gives each of us the option to conduct our business as we see fit. It's no more "right" to insist that all sellers leave feedback on receipt of payment than it is to demand that they wait for the buyer to let them know s/he got the item.
posted on October 23, 2000 06:21:45 AM new
Cozmo - You cannot leave feedback a second time on a transaction. If you leave feedback when the payment arrives, and then the transaction turns into a nightmare, the positive you left the buyer cannot be changed.
Sellers are never going to agree on this, and that is okay. But every time I see a thread on this subject, it seems to me that more sellers are considering that feedback should be left at the end of the TOTAL TRANSACTION, not just when payment is received.
As for "who should go first", as a seller I am perfectly willing to leave FB first, if the buyer will just let me know they've received the item. I think the attitude of "I'll leave feedback when you do" is childish and silly.
posted on October 23, 2000 06:32:46 AM new
I have to agree with kudzurose. I think the thing that galls me about these threads is that too many people can't "live and let live", and many who disagree with the decision to reflect the entire transaction in feedback want to attribute some evil motive to that decision. A poster on a current thread over on the Ebay boards accused sellers who don't post feedback on receipt of payment of "holding buyers hostage with the threat of negative feedback". I'm certainly not doing that. I've never threatened negative feedback if the buyer doesn't post feedback or notify me of receipt. I just don't leave any until I know they got the item and the transaction is over. I still haven't gotten an acceptable answer as to why sellers have less right to reserve feedback until the transaction is completed than do buyers.
posted on October 23, 2000 06:46:02 AM new
pickersangel:
You are completely correct. I routinely leave feedback first in my transactions. I just prefer to base that feedback on the entire transaction (after all feedback is transaction related). This is not holding the buyer feedback hostage. It is simply ensuring that I have the opportunity to leave valid feedback at the conclusion of the transaction.
posted on October 23, 2000 10:52:15 AM new
Rampage, I like your disclaimer re feedback. With 1000+ positives, I have 2 negs. One came from a buyer that never contacted me re a problem. I would like to have warned other sellers as to that buyer's quickness to neg without giving the buyer a chance to make good . I usually leave feedback after the buyer contacts me that their item has been received and they are pleased. I send an email to the buyer when their item has been shipped and explain that. If the buyer paid by MO or PayPal, many times I leave feedback then, I have kept a record to see if I would acrue more feedback by posting the feedback first or second. It really doesn't matter, some buyers do not leave feedback regardless of whether you have already posted theirs and some buyers leave it first, with no problem. Guess we all have to do what works for us, Meredith
posted on October 23, 2000 11:16:20 AM new
we protect our company by using that new service
www.stupidaddress.com/paynow.htm
they have lawyers for negative feedback and help collect money
) or by being a total wretch to deal with until the problem is worked out. I make a reasonable effort to find out if you received your item, so I can go first. Does that work for you, and do you give me the info I need to post feedback, or will you only leave feedback if I blindly leave it first?