posted on January 5, 2006 07:57:56 PM new
Many things in the bible have been proven to have happened, although I bet you can't name one without making your google digit sore...but the physical existence of Jesus isn't one of them.
Your second statement is either purposely vague or you are more obtuse than I ever imagined. What does "But if one believes....in Jesus Christ..." mean to you Linda? To believe in his physical existence? Or to believe in his divinity? The two are NOT the same, and only one, his physical existence, is the topic of this thread.
I believe in "Jesus Christ", whose name was more correctly Jeshua ben Yousef. I believe he more than likely existed historically, caused some political and theosophical problems in the Judea of his time, and was martyred for it, maybe. He may have cleverly faked it. While I believe he probably existed, I'm willing to consider the notion that he may be an elaborate concretion of several rabble rousers of his day, some political and some religious.
I do not believe he was the son of god any more than I am. So, do I "believe in Jesus Christ" by your definition? Why won't you clarify your statement that ALL atheists question the existence of Jesus? Bunni has proven you wrong all by herself.
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Habla siempre que debas y calla siempre que puedas....
posted on January 5, 2006 08:33:28 PM new
It's a very interesting topic, isn't it Double?
I'm not sure how they'd be able to prove or disprove his existance because from what I've read, there isn't a lot written about him outside of the Bible. I think he was a bit of a radical, which I think is pretty cool.
posted on January 5, 2006 08:50:59 PM new
kraft, I can understand some questioning his
"god-ness" but find it hard to believe in this nonexistence theory.
Makes it sound like some mass conspiracy of pulling the wool over the worlds eyes that has been perpetuated forward all these centuries. Although I know some fables and stories get passed along, even Santa Claus has a basis in reality of a real person.
edit to add: yes, he surely (if he existed) was a radical for his time.
..
[ edited by dblfugger9 on Jan 5, 2006 08:57 PM ]
posted on January 5, 2006 09:32:26 PM new
[b]Oh but sharron, whoever you are....I DID address it - in MY second post on this thread.
Now...you want to address the subject, or are you just another agitator? [/b]
Uh, no you didn't address it. By your own words Maybe that's the point I wasn't being too clear on. HIS teachings in relation to this response to KD [b]::another HUGE eyeroll::
to: "I didn't even know people questioned Jesus' existence. I think he was a real person but question the son of God aspect."
ALL atheists do KD....what world do you live in?
Agnostics question the existence of both.....atheists believe there is no such thing as a God or his son,
like the song says: no such person, no such zone[/b]
Since KD was adressing the physical existance of Jesus, your response was hardly clear, nor did it address the later questions by Prof of exactly what you meant, since he was telling you your second post wasn't clear.
Oh, by the way, I am addressing the subject...the subject you turned this thread into with your derailing
Its to bad you derailed the subject because the original subject would have been a fascinating one to discuss. It would have been interesting to see the arguments to support the reality of Jesus' existance.
[ edited by sharronn on Jan 5, 2006 09:34 PM ]
posted on January 5, 2006 10:14:46 PM new
No problem, apology accepted Linda. But do you know the answer to my question? I never heard him referred to that way by anybody when I was growing up, but it seems that in recent years I hear it more and more often, usually from people in "born again" churches/sects.
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posted on January 5, 2006 11:03:36 PM new
replaymedia - IF you're willing and IF you know and IF you head doesn't hurt to badly from 'banging it against that wall'...
Please answer me this tomorrow. What established religions believe in whatever you want to call him....Jesus, Jesus Christ or Christ, in anyway, shape for form?
I have never heard that anyone other than Christians [all the different denominations of same] believing in nor worshipping Christ. I have always understood that Christ is Christian...not Jewish..not Buddist...not anything other than Christian.
posted on January 5, 2006 11:57:33 PM new
Linda is a LIAR. She said, "Linda_K
posted on January 5, 2006 11:03:36 PM
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replaymedia - IF you're willing and IF you know and IF you head doesn't hurt to badly from 'banging it against that wall'..."""
What replay REALLY said was ,
""Uh huh. Yeah. OK, I'm done talking to walls for tonight"""
Now there's another problem linda has...no reading ability ....maybe that's why she tried to put down Letterman by accusing him of READING!
posted on January 6, 2006 12:05:46 AM new
bunni - Don't know if you'll find this of interest or not...but it's titled: From Jesus to Christ....maybe this might give you an answer to your question...I don't know...I didn't read/view it all the way through.
posted on January 6, 2006 01:04:22 AM new
I skimmed the site Linda, but didn't see any reference to the word switch, but thanks anyway.
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posted on January 6, 2006 05:55:04 AM new
Your problem, Linda, is you continue to use the phrase "believe in". It's too broad.
Do you mean "believe in" as a practicing Christian would use that term? In other words, belief that Jesus is the son of god, the only saviour of mankind?
Or do you mean "believe in" as in accept that the man existed as a historical figure, regardless of his divinity?
There are lots of non-Christian faiths that accept the historical Jesus. Some even count him as a prophet or messenger, such as Islam. In the Q'uran, Jesus is Issa bin Marium, the Arabic equivalent of Yeshua ben Yusef, except that in Arabic he's named the son of Mary, rather than the Aramaic name, which counts him as the son of Joseph (Yusef). Islam even accepts the virgin birth, and counts the Virgin Mary (Marium in Arabic) as one of only 4 women in all history to be exalted by god. This is only one example of another religion which "believes in" Jesus, but doesn't "believe in" him. There are others, and if Replay comes back, I'm sure he'll chip in.
At the risk of being accused of telling you how to post, you really need to specify what you mean by "believe in". It doesn't necessarily mean "worship".
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posted on January 6, 2006 05:57:55 AM new
Dbl: At my school, we call it "Christmas Break", we're not participating in O'reilly's war.
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posted on January 6, 2006 07:28:04 AM new
OK, here's the Christ/Jesus thing. I thought this was pretty well known already, but just in case:
There was a guy 2000 years ago. No one knows for sure, but his name probaby was Ieshua Ben Iosef or something spelled similarly. It's pronounced Yeshua Ben Yosef, translated to "Jesus son of Joseph." As a traveler, he probably went by "Jesus of Nazareth" or "Jesus the Nazarene". I don't know Hebrew or Aramaic, so don't ask me any real details about this.
Christ is from the Greek, Christos, or "Messiah". The Christ was a figure prophesies from the Jewish Bible who would basically turn against and defeat the Romans and lead the Jews into freedom. While some said Jesus was the Christos while he was alive, even he wasn't comfortable with the term. In the book of Mark, when Peter tells him "You are the Messiah," Jesus basically tells Peter to shut up and not tell that to anyone. As you can know, Jeuss didn't defeat the Romans, which is why Jews don't believe in him. Christians on the other hand, say he DID defeat the Romans, but it was symbolic or allegorical.
Since Christ IS a religious term, you won't hear Jews or Muslims using the term, only Christians. At least the ones who undertsand the proper usage.
Just to make it abundantly clear, Christ is not the man's name, nor does he have a middle initial of H.
Usage:
JESUS: Just discussing the man,
CHRIST: is the term for discussing his religious signiificance, this was a title given to him mostly after his death.
JESUS CHRIST: If you want to signify both his humanity and godhood. Or if you smash your thumb with a hammer.
CHRIST JESUS: Doesn't really have any special significant except it's another way of saying the previous.
Christ/Jesus: Probably not really appropriate anywhere other than in a discussion like we're having, where Jesus may or may not be Christ.
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Quidquid Latine dictum sit altum sonatur.
posted on January 6, 2006 07:35:11 AM new
"What established religions believe in whatever you want to call him....Jesus, Jesus Christ or Christ, in anyway, shape for form? "
Jews: Depends on who you ask. The do believe he existed, but was just a man. Jesus was born and raised a Jew. They killed him for blasphemy, remember?
Muslims: Jesus was a prophet like Moses or Abraham or Muhammed, and a great teacher. He was not God, but God did perform miracles through him.
Christians. Well, Duh. Catholics and Protestants and Eastern Orthodoxy, Oh my! Butthis category also includes groups such as the Branch Davidians, Mormons, Quakers, Amish, etc.
I don't think Hindus or Buddhists have anything to say on the subject. If pressed, a Hindu might say he was just another aspect of Krishna.
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Quidquid Latine dictum sit altum sonatur.
