posted on December 4, 2000 02:24:39 PM new
I just performed an eBay search for a book -- let's call it "Farms of New England." I got back several eBay search results, but to my shock I noticed a bright yellow banner at the bottom of the page that reads:
Want more? Search Books on Half.com (eBay's fixed price marketplace)
But not only that, the banner has a search engine and already plugged into the "Search" space were the words "Farms of New England." All I had to do was hit "Go" and it brought me to the half.com search result page and right there for sale were three copies of "Farms of New England" -- all priced lower than even the opening bids of those produced by the eBay search engine.
If I were strictly a buyer of books, this might thrill me -- but as a PAYING seller of books on eBay, I am outraged that the site where I PAY to list my items is running direct competition on the search results page.
I also am enraged because I find that the bulk of my sales come from people who do title/description searches, and to cater to this audience, I take extra time to make sure that my descriptions and images are informative and targeted to specific audiences. But as a result of eBay placing a half.com banner on eBay search result pages, the damn half.com sellers are benefiting from my hard work. They don't even have to list descriptions or post images -- just list the title of the book and a price. So, thanks to my hard work, a potential customer can perform a search, look at MY description and MY images, then simply go to the half.com banner, hit GO and potentially find the same book for less.
HOW has this been allowed to happen? It defeats the whole purpose of having a bidding system. Say there are two bidders having a bidding war over one of my books -- what incentive is there anymore for them to continue the back and forth bidding when all they have to do is hit the half.com banner and possibly find the book for a low fixed price? What incentive is there for a third party to enter the bidding. NONE! NONE! NONE!
AND THE ULTIMATE INSULT -- I AM PAYING FOR THIS CRAPPY TREATMENT!!!
I understand that eBay owns half.com, but there should be trade laws or something prohibiting them from collecting a fee from sellers, then directly competing against the seller. It's crap! And it isn't fair. I'm sure it must be happening in other categories too. No wonder my sales have taken an unprecedented dive in the last week or so -- in fact, this has been the worst week I've had in three goddam years on eBay. Here I'm thinking people must be out Christmas shopping or something when in reality they're probably getting the same books I'm offering on half.com now.
Where does the OAUA stand on this? I think this is even worse than the search-related banner advertising eBay was doing earlier this year.
posted on December 4, 2000 02:36:14 PM new
Can you imagine if you were at a real auction, and you put your merchandise in the care of the auction house in the expectation that they would help you get the highest possible price, but during the preview somebody on the side -- somebody employed by the auction house -- came up to potential customers and informed them, "Hey, you like that item? Well, get a good look at it, make sure it's what you want, but don't bother bidding on it. I have the same thing in the trunk of my car outside and I'll sell it to you for five bucks."
THAT is what eBay is doing by putting these half.com banners on OUR search result pages.
[edited for typos because I'm so furious I can't type straight]
[ edited by spazmodeus on Dec 4, 2000 02:38 PM ]
posted on December 4, 2000 02:41:35 PM new
I, too, am outraged by this! I'm
currently on hold with ebay customer
service to voice my feelings about this
issue. I'd suggest that others might
consider doing the same. At least we
can try!
posted on December 4, 2000 03:01:35 PM new
I've tried a few test searches. Sometimes the half.com banner comes up, sometimes it doesn't. I think this is what's happening:
If you do a search, and any of the results that come back include books, eBay puts the half.com banner/search engine on the page. If you do an eBay search and the results do not include books, the half.com banner does not appear.
This is a deliberate, calculated assault by eBay on its booksellers.
But it should worry everyone. Because what's affecting booksellers today is bound to eventually affect everyone. If this half.com linkage proves successful for eBay with books( though I fail to understand how undercutting auctions can possibly benefit eBay, since their final value fees will plummet), they will likely expand it to include other categories -- maybe the one you sell in.
posted on December 4, 2000 03:05:23 PM new
I seem to recall that the "Million Auction March" was created in retaliation to Ebay's dirty Banner thing....I quit selling for 3 months or more, in protest...I can see all our efforts did piddledlysquat! I sell antiques, but I still protested about the Kitchen Small appliance versus Ace Hardware fiasco. It is really dirty!!!!\\
********************
Gosh Shosh!
posted on December 4, 2000 03:08:22 PM new
Spaz .... You might try emailing [email protected] I recall something similar to this happening when the Keen banners first started flying. Brian said it was a mistake, and within 24 hrs they pulled that particular banner. The one that said something along the lines of
"Before you Bid any Higher, Consult With a Keen Expert"
Sounds like another typical SNAFU from the wonder kids at eBay.
posted on December 4, 2000 03:15:17 PM new
this is not new, it's been happening for some time. I don't recall exactly when it was instituted but my guess is approximately a month ago.
BTW the same thing happens on half.com. If the book you're searching for is not in stock on half.com you are prompted to search for it on ebay and the search is prefilled for you. The search takes you to ebay with a Half.com menu bar at the top of the screen.
as far as cost, the 15 percent commission paid by Half.com sellers is far higher than a similar listing fee plus final value fee for a book, for example on a $10 book, the Half.com seller pays $1.50 commission. How much do you pay ebay if you list at $9.95 and sell the book the first time? 25 cents listing fee and 50 cents FVF, gives you plenty of room to list that book a few times on ebay.
In addition the shipping reimbursement I get on Half.com is $1.58 which may or may not cover all my shipping cost for that book, depending on weight. On Ebay I can ask for whatever shipping charge I feel is appropriate.
So both groups of sellers pay, and pay, and pay, really. On Ebay you pay more up front, and on Half.com you pay more on the back end of the transaction.
Part of my research before I list a book is to find out how much I think it will go for on ebay, Half.com, and amazon as well as other sites.
IMHO it's just part of the inexorable move towards fixed price sales, although I think eventually auction sales and fixed price sales will coexist. I think both models will survive not just one.
posted on December 4, 2000 03:17:21 PM new
reddeer I believe this was announced some time ago on the eBay Announcement board. I saw the announcement the day they started doing it. Sorry I don't have the exact reference for you because I didnt' think it was important to save that information, I was kind of expecting that type of cross-site searching and linking.
posted on December 4, 2000 03:48:10 PM new
Gee, Spaz, join the club of outraged booksellers. I started a thread about this latest eBay outrage about a month ago, but I mostly got yawns and what's the big deals from other unworried sellers. Only CAgrrl seemed to know what I was talking about and agreed with me. Your essential point is correct: You are SELLING the book, by photoing it and doing a nice write-up. All so some half.com seller can benefit and undercut you. Don't get me wrong. I list some books on half.com (more on Amazon's marketplace) and I realize that smart people will always check half.com before bidding on a book, but DOES EBAY HAVE TO PUT IT RIGHT IN FRONT OF THEIR FACE, WITH THE SEARCH ALREADY FILLED IN, WHILE I PAY A LISTING FEE AND DO SOME SALESMANSHIP? I have no doubt that eBay does not give a hoot what we small sellers think about this. It's all part of Meg's vision to make eBay more of a fixed-price marketplace and less of a "garage sale" (her words).
posted on December 4, 2000 03:53:21 PM new
enchanted,
Thanks for that detailed, informed response. Coexistence between half.com and eBay might be okay in a perfect world -- one where the market isn't saturated with sellers selling the same items. But it's becoming more saturated every day. The person with the lowest price is going to have the upper hand every time, and it pisses me off that somebody can do an eBay search, have the benefit of my description and images, then -- at eBay's prompting -- go to half.com and buy the book from somebody else who doesn't seem to care about making money. Take that "Farms of New England" book I mentioned. I sold a First Edition on eBay for more than $75 several months ago -- yet there are several first edition copies on half.com for $9.99 (which really boggles me -- why don't these people sell them on eBay? With a little work and attention to detail, they could get a hell of a lot more than $9.99 for the book.) There's no way I can compete with that -- no matter how high my feedback is, no matter how good my service is, no matter how cheap my shipping is.
I'm not in this business to deliver items to people for the lowest possible price. That's totally contrary to everything an auction is. I don't know about everyone else, but I count on bidding wars. I hope people will get passionate in their bidding and make the price skyrocket. Yet by directing my potential customers to a cut-price bargain basement, eBay is defeating the whole dynamic, and they are betraying their relationship with their auction sellers.
I acknowledge that these half.com folks have a right to sell their items as they see fit, for prices that they can apparently live with. What offends me is eBay deliberately directing MY potential customers to half.com. I see it as auction interference -- as auction sabotage. Cripes, if I were to e-mail a bidder on an auction and say, hey, here's where you can get the same item for a lot less, eBay would suspend my ass. Yet what eBay is doing with the banner linkage is tantamount to the same thing.
posted on December 4, 2000 04:01:18 PM new
birdwatcher,
I wish I had seen that thread. I don't get to these boards as much as I used to anymore. Too busy writing up descriptions and scanning photos to make my auctions the best they can be. Ha. What a laugh now. But I'm really surprised that your thread received a lackluster reception. This should be a huge scandal. It's a major betrayal by eBay.
posted on December 4, 2000 04:06:49 PM new
I'm just playing devil's advocate here, but what do sellers think about placing the half.com book description and image in their eBay auctions? This way, you save time writing and scanning book images.
posted on December 4, 2000 04:32:49 PM new
Hi Spaz. Actually to some extent I agree with you. I do feel fixed price sales and auction sales should be physically separated on two sites, although this is unlikely to happen. My personal solution to this situation with Half.com is twofold.
One, I have started to use half.com as a place to buy books for resale on other sites. I sincerely doubt I am the only one doing this. You are correct that some Half.com sellers are either not doing it for the money (as their prices are extremely low) or are not researching the books (they may not know how). Try to turn this to your advantage if possible.
Second, I finally realized that many buyers do not research the cost of a book between multiple sites. Savvy buyers with time do that, but many people either aren't aware of other sites or don't like to click off ebay. Also, many people just don't have the time to do lots of research online. In fact, I've noticed large price differences on the same book depending on which section the book was listed in, so buyers are not always even comparing within ebay.
So all is not lost selling books on Ebay, but it's certainly not easy. Just harder.
On the other hand I have noticed very little overlap between books bought on Amazon versus Half.com. Another buyer group entirely that IMHO you should consider. Amazon has given a big boost to my book sales. I've had the same book listed on Half and Amazon, it sells for more on Amazon after it sat there for months on Half.com at a lower price. Different customer group with different buying habits. This could be used to your advantage also.
Actually I hope to list more books on ebay, not less, just different books than I would have listed in the past.
In sales they say you have to ask the customer to buy at the price you want. If you think the book deserves your price, ask for it and don't worry about Half.com. Your reliability, photos and descriptions could attract book collectors who are willing to pay more for a well described book, and who may be unwilling to risk the purchase on Half.com.
I wish you good luck with your future book sales and other sales Spaz, and also Happy Holidays.
posted on December 4, 2000 04:56:28 PM new
If the FTC were to suddenly tell ebay that they had to take banner ads for Amazon.com I wonder how they'd feel?
posted on December 4, 2000 05:20:33 PM new
enchanted: I enjoyed reading your posts. You are very savvy and express yourself well!
spazmodeus: in my [limited] experience, folks who are interested in genuine 1st editions often want more information than they'll get from a very truncated half.com listing. True, if they have some reason to believe that they are really going to get a quality book for under $10 on half.com, I guess they'll do it, but I am more inclined to think they'd prefer working with a seller on ebay who describes the book in detail and [gasp!] can be contacted via email before the auction ends.
Lately my bids haven't been as brisk as I might like, but I still find that if I list books that are special in some way [nothing with 50+ copies on half.com, in other words], a buyer will probably come along. I do a lot with both half.com and Amazon because some books simply fit those models better. I think it's a healthy situation: everyone has choices, and yes, there is competition. But I tried that approach of buying cheap on half.com to sell on ebay, and I didn't really find that many steals. Maybe I need to look again.
posted on December 4, 2000 05:30:41 PM new
keziak, my problem when I buy on Half.com (or anywhere else for that matter) is that I want to keep it for myself and not resell it. that could be how I ended up with thousands more books than I started with.
I just made a list of books ahead of time that I want for whatever reason, for myself or for resale and put it on my wishlist there. It's not a great source but I don't work real hard at it either. If something came up though hopefully I would get the wishlist notice.
Another thing I've found Half.com useful for is completing the missing volume of a sci-fi trilogy I'm reading, for example. Or for buying an inexpensive reading copy of a first edition I want to keep in the best condition possible.
posted on December 4, 2000 05:53:09 PM new
keziak,
You make some good points, but what's at issue here, at least in my mind, is not whether the different models can work, but that I am forking over money to eBay and eBay is putting competitor ads on search result pages that I PAY to be included in.
enchanted made the point that eBay results are shown on half.com pages, but I don't think it's an equal trade-off. eBay has five, ten, maybe twenty times the amount of traffic half.com does. For every twenty people who are directed to half.com via eBay, there may be only one or two who go to eBay via half.com. Plus half.com has the price advantage. As far as I'm concerned, the linkage via banners is just plain wrong and ought to be stopped.
posted on December 4, 2000 06:26:30 PM new
This is a really interesting issue. There are several problems that go way beyond the other banners...
The other banners linked away from ebay to offsite competitors. They were search targeted to lead people away to offsite sellers, not ebay sellers.
Half.com IS ebay. They are owned by ebay and are as much a part of ebay as is ebay motors or Great Collections or anything else. The sellers at Half are person to person sellers, many of them are sellers who sell both at Half and also in ebay's book/music/movie category. It's awfully hard to go to ebay and tell them they shouldn't link to and promote other sites they own who have many of the very same person to person sellers who also sell on ebay. (Full disclosure here... I sell on Half as well as ebay and I know plenty of other folks who do as well).
OK, here's another thing to mention. I found that link the opposite way. I was at Half the other day looking for a book. The book wasn't available on Half, but the link back to ebay was in the search result and I went to ebay where I found and bid and won the book in an auction. I might have looked at ebay, but actually, I was planning to go to Amazon after checking Half, I wound up back at ebay instead.
This is not to say that I don't see your point Spaz, certainly I do. I think it really depends much on the item in question.
I've discussed the relationship between Half and ebay auctions with ebay some. They are really unsure about how the 2 sites can best work together for the benefit of the community and, of course, them as well. Ultimately, in this case at least, I think ebay's best interest and users' best interest are pretty much the same. More sales at higher prices make more fees for ebay and it makes them happy. What type of relationship would best enhance that? I know they want ebay users to find Half and Half users to find ebay as much as possible.
As a seller, have you tried Half? What have you found? Do ebay Auctions work better for you? How about ebay BIN? How about Half? I'm sure different formats for different items work better. I sold a BUNCH of stuff on Half that never got a bid on ebay, and I didn't have to pay a listing fee or worry about relisting.
posted on December 4, 2000 06:53:55 PM new
I would have no problem if the banner only came up when the search of auctions came up empty. That seems to be the only time the auction search comes up on Half. But when there are auctions showing from the search they should stand alone. We the sellers on the eBay site are paying for the searches with our fees. This seems to be a direct auction interference case. We can't do it but eBay can.
posted on December 4, 2000 07:30:05 PM new
I concur with ondahouse. It is auction interference.
toy,
I do not sell on half. I do not sell BIN. I remain committed to the auction format. It has worked well for me for more than three years and has never left me with a moment of dissatisfaction -- well, until this last week or so.
I regret that eBay has elected to cater to non-auction sellers. I've said this in other threads -- I think it hurts all of us auction sellers in the long run.
I don't see the half.com banner being any different from the ACE hardware banner fiasco. In both instances, OUR customers -- that is, the customers of eBay auction sellers -- are being siphoned off at the Search Result page. Personally, it doesn't matter to me that the folks at half.com may also be eBay sellers -- as far as I'm concerned, when they sign on at half.com they become flat price sellers and have no business having their sales promoted at MY expense. Not only the expense of my money, but my work. When somebody at half.com gets a sale because somebody on eBay did a Search, got my item to come up on the Search results, looked at my item description and images and then went back to half.com to get it for cheap -- that's like eBay reaching into my pocket and stealing money. Even worse, it's a betrayal of the trust I put in eBay to act as an upstanding venue for my items. It's immoral for them to take my money, then become my biggest competitor.
If someone had told me three years ago that one day eBay would go out of its way to put banners on pages that draw business away from my auctions, I would have scoffed. Back then I believed in the "community" myth. I've also heard people say that eBay is out to run small auction sellers off the site. I used to scoff at that one too, until today, when I saw that half.com banner sitting at the bottom of the Search Results page.
This half.com development may not seem like a big deal to people who casually sell on eBay, either for fun or to supplement their income. But eBay is my primary income. This is how I put food on the table. I see that half.com banner as taking food off my table -- and the cruel irony is, it's being done by the very company I trusted to help me put it there in the first place.
posted on December 4, 2000 07:47:34 PM new
I found this on the announcement board.
.......................................
User: [email protected]
Date: 11/17/00
Time: 09:54:17 PST
*** Ability to search Half.com from eBay search results ***
As announced several weeks ago, yesterday we began to display a Half.com search box at the bottom of the eBay search results if most of your items fall into some of the Books, Movies, Music or Video Games categories. The Half.com search box will be prepopulated with your search query (edited if necessary) and tailored to the category into which the majority of your results appear. Thus, if most of your eBay search results fall into the Movies category, we will display a Half.com search box that is appropriate for a search in the Movies category on Half.com.
At the same time eBay has provided links to Half.com, Half.com has been promoting eBay actively on their site. For example, Half.com provides a link for users to search for related items on eBay from EVERY search and on EVERY product page. We hope that you find these search links helpful whether you are searching on eBay or Half.com.
posted on December 4, 2000 08:04:43 PM new
Thanks, ondahouse.
Basically, they're saying, "We're doing it and that's that." Very unlike other announcements where they have said, "We're doing this and it will benefit you because ..." They KNOW it hurts the auction seller, but the unspoken message is "tough luck."
The second paragraph is laughable. So my results come up on half.com. BFD.
posted on December 4, 2000 08:30:53 PM new
ondahouse makes a good point about the searches on Half.com. From my experience (and I haven't gone back to test this so please don't quote me til I have a chance to test this out tomorrow)...
From memory, a search on Half.com will have a clickable link on the Half.com page that asks if you would like to search for this item on Ebay. It does not, or did not in the past, come up with the same prefilled search box that allows an ebay user to so easily search the Half.com books. So the reciprocal search would not be as explicit and therefore as useful.
From my memory, the Half.com search only pulls up a prefilled search box when there are no items currently in stock. This might only be due to the amount of time that it takes Programming changes to be implemented at Half, and could very well be different now, and updated to the same type of search as Ebay.
As I said, since things sometimes change daily there, my knowledge could be out of date.
FWIW, I agree with many of your points Spaz and have always felt that the auction sales and fixed price sales should be separated because of the problems you note. It should be up to the seller to decide where and how to sell.
As far as cost though, with the downturn lately in Auction sales, I pay Half.com (which is owned 100 percent by Ebay) far more dollarwise per month than I pay total in ebay fees, listing plus FVF. In fact, I sometimes wonder how much Half.com and other fixed pricing including BIN will provide to the Ebay bottomline in the future. Certainly in the present Half.com is extremely profitable for Ebay at a 15 percent final value fee plus a cut of the shipping fee. Believe me that gets old pretty quick and when you see rows and rows of closed auction ads with no bids9 which means Ebay does not earn Final Value Fees), you might start to wonder if Half.com is going to start to subsidize Ebay operations, not the other way around.
For myself I thought it would be wiser to recognize the fact that fixed price selling (or BIN) was going to exist on the Internet no matter what, and in some way, shape or fashion, it might do me well to learn to adjust to it and find a way it could benefit me as a seller. Some items are better suited for the auction format and some are not. Each seller needs to decide what and how to sell.
posted on December 4, 2000 08:53:57 PM new
For a change, and believe me this is rare, I am in agreement with eBay's decision in thier promotion half.com. eBay has long been over-cluttered with common items that do not belong in an auction format in the first place.
I see this as eBays first attempt to do something about it. Books, CDs and Video are just the first step.
True, half.com is sorely lacking in certain features at the moment that would give the sellers better control. But I have sold a few things at half, and the 15% compared to the time I save in listing is well worth it.
The market will bring what the market can bear, and eBay does NOT owe anyone a living (or even a profit margin). That privelidge is entirely up to the seller.
I got one misspelling, there's probably more...
[ edited by kathyg on Dec 4, 2000 08:54 PM ]
posted on December 4, 2000 09:48:28 PM neweBay has long been over-cluttered with common items that do not belong in an auction format in the first place.
Who appointed you the arbiter of what belongs in an auction, kathyg? You think Pez dispensers belong in an auction format? That's how eBay started, you know -- not with high-end antiques or whatever, but with Pez dispensers. So spare us the condescending attitude. I'm willing to bet that some of my "common item" books have brought much higher bids than some of the stuff you sell.
I see this as eBays first attempt to do something about it. Books, CDs and Video are just the first step.
That's right, just the first step. But one day, one of those "steps" is going to trample on your business, kathyg. I doubt you'll be so smug and self-righteous when it happens.
"When they came to take the communists, I did nothing. I was never a communist. When they came to take the Catholics, I turned my head. I am not a Catholic. When they came to take the Jews, I closed my eyes. I did not know any Jews. When they came to take me, there was silence -- there was no one else." -- Niemoller
