posted on December 4, 2000 10:29:57 PM
Ebay wants to move books, movies, cds that sell for low amounts/one bid over to a fixed price venue. I think they are trying to get those 50 copies of John Grishom that sit on the listing for 7-10 days and 48 of them never get a bid..over to half.com.
But this search banner thing is not good. It wouldn't be bad if it only showed up if there were no results on the ebay search
I am surprised Toy that you would support this after your strong opposition to the Ace banner ads. I don't see much difference between the two. Actually, I think the half.com ones are worse because they are directing the buyer to a site where the whole concept is for the book to be sold for no more than 1/2 the retail price/cover price.
I don't think you can compare it to ebay motors or great collections either. On ebay motors..if your selling a car there is no place in the regular listings to list a car, nor is ebay motors set up as a spot where the price HAS to be half of what the normal retail price and therefore normally less than the regular listing area for cars. The same can be said for great collections...their prices do not have to be 1/2 normal retail so they do not have an advantage over the seller of the same item who is not selling on great collections.
The half.com seller DOES have a distinct price advantage over the ebay seller because the price is limited to half retail. IF half was just a fixed price venue where the seller could set the price at whatever he wanted then maybe it wouldn't be so bad.
posted on December 4, 2000 10:34:19 PM
ebay is not in compliance with their own rules.
unfortunately ebay only cares about ebay sense ebay owns half.com you can bet they will always be there.
we, as sellers, are not aloud to have any mention in our ads that we sell on other auction sites, or that we offer anything for sale on any other "venue"(to use the ebayese). Believe me I know I had a link on my auction that said check out our other auctions, if you clicked it you were taken to my web site and from there you could click on my amazon, yahoo, or ebay auctions. I was in compliance with their rules and still they ended over 950 of my auctions. It would be interesting to see what would happen if you put in your ad, you can buy this item from us at half.com at half of retail and it sell for less than your listing on ebay.
we pay to sell our items on ebay and anything that takes sellers away form the site is just as wrong, if not more so than a seller saying "Hay I have a place on my site where I sell my items for half of retail." You can bet ebay would end all those auction in a few minutes.
posted on December 4, 2000 10:42:22 PMI am surprised Toy that you would support this after your strong opposition to the Ace banner ads. I don't see much difference between the two. Actually, I think the half.com ones are worse because they are directing the buyer to a site where the whole concept is for the book to be sold for no more than 1/2 the retail price/cover price.
Amy, YES! Exactly! They're stealing away potential bidders by holding out the lure of low-priced flat sales. It's no different than the Ace scenario, except that this time it's eBay itself who is leeching off the bidder pool, not an outside company.
Actually, I'm just not sure at this point. I see their side of it, and I see Spaz's points as well.
The idea that it is 'written in stone' is really not correct though. It's only 'written in stone' if it proves to be successful. ebay is trying to find ways build roads between it's associated sites. I mean, the whole idea of buying them is to use them to each other's benefit... In this case, I think their longterm goals and user's longterm goals are the same. I think they are experimenting with how to make all that work.
I have not formed an opinion about whether or not I think this is really a bad thing. I seriously doubt ebay has yet either.
posted on December 4, 2000 10:47:02 PMwe pay to sell our items on ebay and anything that takes sellers away form the site is just as wrong, if not more so than a seller saying "Hay I have a place on my site where I sell my items for half of retail.
I agree, hwy. Also, that kind of link in a seller's auction wouldn't be apparent in search results, so unless a bidder went directly to that seller's auction page, he/she would never see it. Not so with the half.com banners. They're displayed on the Search Results page, before any eBay seller's auction page has a chance to be viewed.
posted on December 4, 2000 10:51:16 PM
They're building roads, all right, Toy, and they're steamrolling anyone in their path -- including me and other booksellers.
I can't even believe that you see any merit in the eBay point of view. If it were anyone BUT eBay running half.com I bet you'd be tearing this banner-linkage to ribbons. Just because eBay owns it doesn't make it okay.
posted on December 4, 2000 11:09:14 PM
I guess it mostly has to do with my experience with it to date, Spaz.
I'm not normally a bookseller, and I don't fully understand the dynamic there. I have listed books on ebay before, but I've had better luck selling on Half.
My only experience with the link between them caused me to bid on an auction at ebay that I might not have ever otherwise looked at.
So my experience doesn't put me anywhere near yours.
Can you put me in your shoes? Can you find examples, tangible examples of how it's hurting booksellers at ebay and send them to me?
Do that, help me understand HOW this is effecting you and other booksellers and I'll get on the phone about it. I'll be out that way sometime next month, too. Like I said, I really think ebay's best interest and seller's best interest are very much the same here, and if we can demonstrate HOW it hurts sales, there's a pretty decent chance they'll back off of it.
Oh, one more thing... just a general thought... Half might take 15%, but they also pay you for shipping, often more than it actually costs. The cost of sales on Half is way less than 15%, especially on inexpensive items.
posted on December 4, 2000 11:17:10 PM
Spaz asked what OAUA's position was. Months ago, OAUA took a position actively opposing competitive banner ads on eBay. Competitive banner ads take potential bidders off-site, and are not in the best interest of eBay users. The violate the spirit, but not the letter, of eBay's longstanding prohibition of advertising on auction listings. And competitive banner ads that are tied to search results are especially onerous.
Bobby (ToyRanch) and others were involved in extensive discussions with eBay on OAUA's behalf- discussions that may have slowed eBay's movement down this path, but certainly did not stop them. Like Amy, and others, I see little difference here between Half.com and the other off-site retailers. That Half.com is eBay-owned is of little comfort to the small sellers who pay fees to list on eBay, only to see potential buyers sold by eBay to the highest bidder.
Bottom line, though- eBay has long ago charted a course that they believe is in their best interest. The huge amount of traffic that the eBay core site draws is a valuable comodity- one the eBay is selling off a bit at a time in various marketing schemes. The small and medium sellers are not eBay's primary concern, unfortunately.
posted on December 4, 2000 11:45:57 PM
You're asking me to prove a negative, Toy, and it can't be done.
There's no way I can prove that I'm losing sales to half.com. People don't e-mail me to say, "Hey Spaz, I was doing a search for books about fly fishing but never got around to looking at the one you listed on eBay because right off the bat I saw on the Search Results page that if I went to half.com instead, I could get the same or similar book for a low flat price."
They don't e-mail me to say, "Spaz, just wanted to thank you for that informative item description you provided (not to mention those great photos). Using eBay's title/description search feature I discovered your book -- a title I didn't even know existed! --and thanks to eBay's half.com link on the search result page, I was able to blow off your auction and instead get the same title at half.com for a fraction of what it would have cost me had I entered the bidding on eBay."
Thankfully, nor do they write to say, "You must be some kind of moron to be listing on eBay, Spaz. You've been selling on the site for more than three years and then BLAM!, eBay comes along and cuts your sales right out from under you with this half.com link on the Search Results page. Why should anyone bid on your auction -- hell, why should anyone even look at your auction page when we can go to half.com straight from the Search Results page and maybe get it for less?"
But then again, I really don't need people to write to me to tell me these things, Toy. All I need is common sense and years of selling experience to see what's happening.
posted on December 4, 2000 11:57:18 PM
I'm as outraged and angry as Spazmodeous is about this and have been for the past month. I can't really add anything more to his/her argument. The last group of book auctions I listed on Ebay never got a bid. I couldn't figure out why all my sales suddenly died. Then I discovered the link to Half.Com was showing up on every single search I did on my own books.
I started most of my books at between 5.00 and 7.00. My customers were directed by Ebay to Half.com were some of these books sell for half or less then what I have been selling them for at Ebay. I can't sell First Editions and books that are new and list for 26.00 and more for 1.00 or 2.00 on Half.Com. And I shouldn't have to pay ebay to list my books when they are placing banner ads that direct my customers to another venue that they own!!!!!!
I was one of the initial sellers on AuctionWeb. Ebay WAS my job. But like many others I have quit. I'm doing just fine at Yahoo and Amazon. I wish all sellers who are still selling on Ebay the very best but I applaud everyone that leaves!
Anais
Live,Laugh,Love
posted on December 5, 2000 12:31:02 AM
birdwatcher- yes I well remember that thread! Where were all these voices then?
I moved the majority of my book sales off of Ebay right after we had that first discussion. I am selling the bulk of my books on Amazon marketplace now, and some are listed on Yahoo. I've been discovering that I don't really NEED Ebay for book sales, which came as a bit of a surprise. A pleasant surprise though.
Amazon's marketplace is GREAT! It's a lot less work that listing on Ebay is and Amazon's search engine is far, far superior to half.com's. But books admittedly aren't my livelihood- they are a secondary source of income for me- I basically buy, read, & re-sell tons of books to feed my own cravings. I do feel for the full time booksellers who are facing this dilemma. It sux.
posted on December 5, 2000 12:42:17 AM
Toy, not to pick on you but...
When the Ace banner thing came up I did not hear (see) you suggest that it needed to be proved first that the banner ads would take buyers away from ebay sellers..you seemed to just accept the apparently logical conclusion that it would have that effect and therefore was bad.
Now though, as you admit, you have success selling on half.com whereas you haven't had success selling the same items on ebay. Would your inability to see how this is detrimental to ebay sellers as quickly as you saw the Ace banner ads as being detrimental have anything to do with the fact that this banner ad situation could actually benifit your sales on half.com? Where as there was no benefit to you with the ACE ads?
posted on December 5, 2000 02:09:55 AM
This is an interesting thread. Spaz, I can understand why you are upset. But the question is, is Half.com really taking sales from eBay? If it's true that eBay provides searches of Half.com, and Half.com provides searches of related eBay categories on each of its pages, then are bidders really being drawn away? I mean, any more so than, say, if eBay introduced a new category on its core site?
It seems like eBay may (and I emphasize may) have found a good way to move inexpensive, retail-type fixed price items to one location, while leaving more traditional auction-type stuff alone. After all, everyone's been complaining that's what eBay should, and must do. We've been expecting it for a long time now. Booksellers are the canary in the coal mine. Or maybe we're all shipwrecked on a desert island, and we're trying to decide which one of us to eat first. Better book sellers than software sellers, eh?
Okay, so I'm not a bookseller and I admit to being somewhat apathetic. Your observation that Half.com will reduce "bidding wars" and therefore total revenues for eBay book sellers is very fair. On the other hand, not having to worry about writing descriptions might allow sellers to offer many more items at Half.com. I haven't looked at that site yet.
ToyRanch makes a lot of good points and for some reason I'm not getting worked up over this either. Really, I'd rather eBay move certain items off-site than to bring big retail companies onto the core site. (By the way, rare and collectible books will still do well at eBay.) Perhaps when Half.com starts offering new retail boxed Microsoft software at 90% off of list price, then I'll worry. I don't expect that will happen soon.
Amy, the difference is in the implication that Half.com is merely an annex of eBay. Sales that go from eBay to Half.com are perceived as still being "all in the family." I don't know if that's true or not.
posted on December 5, 2000 02:39:32 AM
Okay, I checked out Half.com. First of all, the links from eBay are NOT at the top of the search page, they're at the bottom of the page. So eBay isn't exactly intercepting bidders. Bidders wouldn't even notice the link until they've gone through all the eBay listings.
My main observation is that while Half.com appears to have good deals - they advertise their "best price" up front - in fact the "best price" is usually for books that are in crappy condition. It took me about 2 minutes to figure that out. Unless a book is advertised as NEW (and I mean brand new) I wouldn't buy it at Half.
At eBay, sellers can show pictures of their book, or give a detailed description of the book's condition. In short, I have a feeling most regular eBay buyers will prefer to stick to the familiar eBay format.
On the other hand, maybe next time Goodwill has a half-price sale on paperbacks, I'll give Half.com a try. Who's got time to write fancy descriptions any more?
posted on December 5, 2000 02:50:26 AM
Just wanted to point out that it's no longer true that you are required to list on half.com for no more than half price. That went out several weeks ago. You can now list for whatever you want [if it's more than half price it goes into an "over half" category.]
I don't disagree with spaz in his comments about banners re-directing ebay traffic to half.com. I don't like that either. But the fact is, half.com is a part of ebay and I'm not really surprised that they do that. It's up to us to figure out how to make the system work.
One way to do that is to find a source of inexpensive books that AREN'T glutted on either half.com or ebay. Those books WILL get good prices. I've made some really great sales on Amazon, too, even factoring in their additional fees. This is what I find to be the real brain work of selling on these sites, shifting the wheat from the chaff. It's hard when you have to be checking multiple sites, but it's the present reality.
posted on December 5, 2000 03:07:12 AM
Twinsoft...although most of the books I sell would not be able to be put up for sale at half.com because they do not have ISBN numbers (most of my books are pre ISBN), I have sold books that would be able to be put on half.
I remember one where having the potential customer see the book in the search..even if it were at the bottom...could have hurt me badly.
The book in question was a 1981 first edition of a first novel by a desireable author. Listing it at the half price would have made the listing price under $10. As stated earlier, many sellers who list at half do not research their merchandise and are unaware of the value of their book.
On ebay this book sold for $123. If there had been sellers who listed listed this book on half for $10, it is more than probable that the bidders would have seen the search banner for half when they did a search on this book...especially since at the time I listed it there were no others on ebay. they would have gotten a search result of one..plus a prompt to go to half where of course they would have found it for much less than it was worth. I find it hard to believe the buyer would not have grabbed the "sure thing" before they bothered to try bidding in an open auction.
The problem is that your assuming only older books get high prices. This is not true, as many newer books can also go high, much higher than their original list price. And it is those newer books which are listed on half at 1/2 or less than their list price.
Like I said, if the search result on ebay were to produce 0 items found, then I would have no problem with a half.com banner popping up prompting the searcher to search half.com..but as long as the search produces even 1 item that matches the search criteria, then ebay should not be prompting the user to use the fixed price side of the site when the user was searching in the auction side.
And this would go for half.com too. The searcher at half should only be prompted to use the auction side of ebay if the search at half came up with 0 items.
Keziak..since I haven't looked at half for a while I was unaware you could list for more than half, but even that doesn't change the fact that this isn't a good way for ebay to promote that side of their venue.
posted on December 5, 2000 05:26:09 AM
Amy, I have listed and sold books on Half.com for more than half price. This feature has been around for a couple months I think. Admittedly it's not a large part of my sales there but the feature is available if I choose to use it.
Twinsoft, IMHO computer software will be one of the next group of products that will be sold under the fixed price model with ratings for condition. They sell computer games already that way, selling regular software is just a step away.
Think about it, computer software is the next logical area. They have a UPC code allowing for easy ID of product, and it is a standardized product just like a book or a CD. The only differences between two copies of Microsoft Access for a particular year will be its condition which can be easily rated. (New in shrinkwrap, opened but not used, used/excellent, etc.)
The fixed price model is eminently suitable for computer software and I for one cannot wait because I intend to sell more software as soon as that option is available to me. Twinsoft, you might be able to sell more software not less, you really don't know yet but IMHO you should prepare for changes.
I'm with Keziak, growth and change are helping me to survive and actually improve my sales results.
CAgrrl, I remember that thread earlier and was also a bit surprised at the lack of interest in the topic. I viewed these changes as inevitable back when Ebay bought Half.com and didn't think it worthy of special comment when Ebay started the cross promotion.
Actually, the surprise for me is that Ebay and Half.com are not advertising for new bidders/buyers. Even Wonder Bread used to advertise when I was a kid, Builds Strong Bodies 12 Ways! Even though Wonder Bread was the biggest bread brand in America at that time, you still have to remind people to buy it so when they go to the supermarket they buy Wonder Bread not the store brand.
Where are Ebay's ads, bids are low and they should be advertising. We wouldn't have so many issues with our sales if there were more bidders/sales.
My point being that Ebay and Half both seem to not be able to grow beyond a certain group of bidders and failure to advertise is one of the causes of stagnation of the market.
quite honestly a lot of book buyers go to Amazon and never even visit Ebay or Half. If you want to sell books, well try Amazon too. Personally if you don't that's ok because I will have less competition there...
Not asking you to prove anything. I just want to understand better. One way we were able to convince ebay that the competitive banners were bad was to cite examples of the ways damage would be done to their sellers, and the site.
Some of that they saw right away and they made the banners 'less competitive'. Over time, they saw the more general harm and took them down completely. Note, banners leading away from ebay-owned sites are now GONE.
As I said before, they are experimenting with ways to interface their sites. If we can even give them some things to look at as far as metrics go, that will help to make a case to halt the links.
Amy~
I've only listed and sold a handful of items on Half, and I seriously doubt any have benefited from links coming from ebay. Most of the items I have that would qualify for those categories, I would most likely sell on ebay. Of the 80 or so items I tried to list on Half (picking things I considered to be newer), about 1/3 of them were not in Half's database and couldn't be listed.
I'm not biased toward Half. I'm biased toward person to person sellers. The competitive banner ads were destructive to the level person to person selling platform that ebay created. Half is also a person to person selling platform, it's just a different model. The differences between those banners and these links are, IMO, apples to oranges. That's not to say the links are a good thing...
posted on December 5, 2000 07:14:07 AM
It looks to me like the question eBay is asking itself is, how do we channel auction user traffic to produce fixed price sales AND how do we get it to work the other way around? There are lots of different opinions about doing that, trying to “share” customers between the “auctions” and the “fixed prices”. I don’t know what will ultimately happen. It would seem that if “fixed price” sales on eBay/Half.com are going to emerge as a major trading force, then the “Buy It Now”
feature should tell us that. At least if fixed price selling will work for most of us, the auction sellers will have the option to use the BIN feature. I'm not sure where that would leave Half.com. The thing is, does the average eBay buyer really understand all of these options? Starting price, reserve price, BIN price, Half.com? All of the icons and search possibilities? Is it too complicated or getting too complicated?
I like the straight auction format myself. I think it’s exciting and the “uncertainty” of the final price is what makes it appealing. Maybe we’re heading for a time when some of us will want to use an ”eBay Classic” icon in the search results. eBay Classic = straight auction, no reserve……or something like that. I hate to see eBay get too confusing or more complicated for new users though. Seems like
there are more than enough icons and eye catchers as it is. Maybe open up the old Auction Web for antiques and vintage collectibles only? (Yeah I know, what’s a vintage collectible?…………never mind)
I really don’t know if the majority of eBay sellers will be hurt or helped by the Half.com “presence”. I don’t think anybody knows yet.
posted on December 5, 2000 07:32:32 AM
Exactly Ray~
Nobody really knows for sure... we can make assumptions and predictions, but it's something that has never been done before!
Personally, I believe the variety of selling formats gives sellers additional tools to be more successful. I've been using BIN on some items with GREAT success. I've sold them at a higher price than I normally get at auction. I've sold items on Half that did not sell on ebay. I LOVE having all of those selling formats for my goods!!!
The question is how should they interface... This is a question that ebay asks itself all the time. They don't know the answer to it. They bought Half, and now they are literally saying "OK, we got it, we like it, it's cool, what do we DO with it?"
Bottom line... ebay does what serve's it's best interest. With the competitive banners that were bringing outside revenue into ebay, ebay's immediate interest was different from their longterm interest/user's interest. In this case, ebay's best interests and user's best interests are very much the same.
posted on December 5, 2000 07:38:07 AM
CAgrrl, thanks for stopping by! I've been listing on Marketplace, too, and I've been pleasantly surprised by the prices I've been able to get on recent-vintage books.
I think Spaz's point that this is auction interference is essentially correct. If someone other than eBay were directing potential bidders away from the site (remember, we can't even have a link to our other auctions on other sites in our eBay ads), eBay would be doing everything it could to stop that person or entity. But because they do it, and because they own half.com, they believe it is just fine.
For those of you who don't sell books (which make up about 80% of my sales on eBay), it's coming. Meg has already made statements that they are looking for ways to expand half.com to include ANY product with a UPC code. I'd imagine computer software & hardware will be next. But just think about all the stuff you buy with a UPC. Which kind of seller will be targeted next?
I've already gone about restrategizing my selling on the internet, trying to make myself less dependent on eBay (not to mention looking for a day job). eBay's actions convince me more and more they would like to see us small sellers become extinct or nearly so. I can't afford to wait around for them to kill us off. That said, I am still rather dependent on eBay at this MOMENT, and this half.com banner thing affects me NOW and angers me.
posted on December 5, 2000 09:05:03 AM
Apples and oranges? no.
The core problem with any banner ad etc is the tilting of the "playing field" from one user to another. This situation now gives one set of sellers an advantage over another...an advantage that comes from the venue itself not from the abilities of the individual sellers.
The sellers at half who are selling at cut rate prices already have a legitimate advantage with their prices and that is right and normal. A business person who can undercut the competition has an earned advantage...but the other sellers have that same opportunity. But when the venue starts channeling the buyers to the seller with the lower prices that seller now has an unfair advantage..one he didn't earn by smart business practices.
There are ways ebay could integrate half into the main site without tilting the playing field unfairly. One would be the way I stated earlier..on either site the search only directs the buyer to the other site if the search came up with 0 results for the item being searched.
Another way would be for the searcher to have the option to include a search of both sites...but the buyer would have to make that choice.
posted on December 5, 2000 09:06:42 AM
Hi, Amy. Well, what you describe could be seen as a disadvantage. Seller has valuable first edition but is unaware of value. Lists book at Half.com at a low fixed price.
Question is, is Half.com creating more competition for eBay sellers, or opening up a whole new market? I agree with Enchanted:
"Twinsoft, you might be able to sell more software not less, you really don't know yet but IMHO you should prepare for changes.... I'm with Keziak, growth and change are helping me to survive and actually improve my sales results."
birdwatcher wrote, "eBay's actions convince me more and more they would like to see us small sellers become extinct or nearly so."
You know, no matter what happens, someone will be in a position to complain about it. eBay traditionally has been a venue for buying collectibles in an auction format. Many sellers tried to come in with retail-type fixed price sales for cheap junk and folks complained about that. Now eBay is trying to move those fixed price sales to another web site and folks are complaining about that too. Well, people, hard to find items will still do well at eBay. You could argue that moving the (for lack of a better word) crap off site will encourage bidders and make eBay "fun" again. I'm not trying to make any pronouncements, only to say that this issue may be more complex and deserves some extra consideration.
One last thing. Take a book like "Bridges Of Madison County." That was the example used in the initial post, no? Now excuse me, but do you really expect me to believe that Bridges is so rare or hard to find that there would really be bidding wars over it? I know Goodwill can't give them away. I'd be hard pressed to even bid or buy from any online site, considering the extra shipping charges.
Collectible books will still have their place at eBay, as will closeout software. I think a little grumbling is perfectly okay. But it's adapt or die, people. Half.com may be a whole new opportunity for sellers.
posted on December 5, 2000 09:18:09 AM
yep - you got it Twinsoft!
amy, since you too could have listed the same book at Half.com I guess I don't see the playing field as not level in the example that you gave. It's the sellers individual choice to take advantage of a particular method of selling or not.
posted on December 5, 2000 09:22:14 AM
Twinsoft...I would be really disingenuous if I ever were to say the seller didn't have to adapt, adapt, adapt...considering how adamant I have been in that position before!
And I don't want anyone to get me wrong...I am not against half.com being part of the mix in the ebay marketplace. When i first heard about ebay buying half I thought it was fabulous..and I still think it is a great addition to the mix here.
But it does have to be carefully integrated with the core site to avoid giving the half sellers more of an advantage than they naturally have with low prices. I don't think the current method satisfies that goal.
By the way..I think the book in the first post was "Farms of New England" not "Bridges of Madison County"...but I AM getting old and the memory is said to be the first thing to go, so I might be wrong!
posted on December 5, 2000 09:30:26 AM
Enchanted..the point is not that I couldn't have listed the book at half (actually this book was sold before ebay bought half). The point is that half is fixed price...the book WILL NOT sell for more than the listed price. My book started at less than $10..$4.99 to be exact and it was the auction format that made the book realize it's value to the buyers.
By directing the potential buyer towards the fixed price seller, ebay is giving that seller an advantage that he didn't have. It is that channeling that I think is wrong..not the fixed price or low price of the half.com merchandise.
A pleasant surprise though.