posted on December 8, 2000 10:29:36 PM
paypaldamon
I have a problem with the 5 million registered users argument. You can toss (out of this scenario the users who's accounts have little or no activity. They are not as likely to have trouble. The users most likely to run into problems are the volume users, especially sellers.
We've only had a few minor problems with PayPal but are taking extra steps to insure we won't have problems. Most people are not that careful...
posted on December 9, 2000 12:30:39 AM
I buy a LOT on ebay, and I for one am giving up Paypal. I loved the convenience and speed of it... at first. But when DOUBLE the amount I was paying out started missing from my checking account (I use my debit card), and Paypal reps told me they put a "HOLD" on all my amounts paid for seven days, I didn't LOVE it anymore. I buy too much to have my account frozen for those periods of time! And no, Mr JudgementalMRBUCKS I am not an idiot... on the contrary - it would be pretty idiotic of me to WANT my own checking account funds NOT available to me!!! I don't see why it's necessary for you to name-call just because people have a difference of opinion. If you are a big seller you better hope your buyers don't start feeling the same way I do about Paypal, or else you'll be singing a different tune real soon.
Rocker
posted on December 9, 2000 01:18:53 AM
Hey, NYC. I saw your post in the other thread and again here. I am reading the words, but I can't seem to understand/believe what you're saying. Or perhaps it's this incredible sense of deja vu that's getting in the way.
You paid $150 using a debit card and your account was charged $300. Was that a Paypal debit card (??) or a bank card? Are you saying Paypal took money out of your bank account?
posted on December 9, 2000 01:29:59 AM
Hi Twin! YES Paypal takes ("holds" in their words) money from my checking account! I use the debit card for my own checking account and that is the card linked to Paypal. When this happened and I was missing $300, I called Paypal (had to go through hoops to get their phone number) and they double talked me into circles, but basically they said the way Paypal is set up, it "cannot tell the difference" between a debit card and a credit card, so it puts a "hold" on the card. (It puts a hold on the amount of money - times TWO - which I COULD NOT GET her to explain clearly!) I wanted that hold OFF of course, and I was told I had to wait 7 days. I looked into my checking account online, and sure enough, every payment I'd made with Paypal was DOUBLE charged - only for seven days, then it miraculously returns. I know, this is CRAZY!! I don't know why EVERYONE is not screaming about Paypal, but, whatever, that is my personal experience, and there is NO WAY I am continuing with this! I pay now with money orders and checks. (By the way when I discovered this, the RENT was due, and it was NOT in my account, and I had to wait for it to re-appear.) Can you believe this? Email me if you want to. Are we allowed to give our email addresses here? I feel like I am smoking in the school bathroom or something. Rules. Whatever
Rocker
posted on December 9, 2000 02:04:06 AM
Hi, NYCRocker. Yes, you're allowed to post your own email address (but not another member's). Mine is [email protected].
You're kind of new, but AW has been having this discussion for quite a while, ever since Paypal introduced the new "business" account. Paypal has exhibited a clear pattern of lies and obfustication. They've violated most of their promises. One of the few claims Paypal still clings to is that they will never "remove" money from a user's bank account without specific permission.
Of course, Paypal finds ways around this. For example, they can "reverse" a payment you received, and not call it removing funds. It's all weasel words but your story of double billing is the first I've heard of its kind.
Wow, this is telling. Try posting your story in the AW Partners Forum. That's where most of the Paypal discussion happens. There are plenty of horror stories there to choose from. I only pray that the feds shut Paypal down before they do any more damage.
posted on December 9, 2000 03:22:47 AM
twinsoft! Before the Feds do shut it down, if they ever do... can I get notice first?.. please, before the 'Feds" grab my money that is! I'd rather deal with Pay Pal than the Feds, biggest thieves in the History of the US Government.
posted on December 9, 2000 03:47:03 PM
NYC -- Here's the explanation of what's happening:
When you make a $100 payment by insta-check, Paypal takes $100 out of your checking account, and places a $100 temporary hold on your credit card to ensure that the transaction will go through. (It takes several days before Paypal knows if you have enough money in your checking account; this way, Paypal can pay the seller immediately, and, if the e-check bounces, take the money from your credit card instead.) In your case, your credit card is a debit card, linked to your checking account, so both transactions appear on your checking account.
You have two other options:
(1) Use the regular e-check, rather than the insta-check. The seller will have to wait 4+ days to receive the funds, but the transaction won't result in a hold on your credit card, which is really a debit card.
(2) Use your debit card. The money will be taken out of your checking account, because the card is a debit card transaction, but you won't get the double charge.
Make that three options ...... Close your Paypal account because they're more trouble than they're worth.
posted on December 9, 2000 07:08:31 PM
Hi booksbooksbooks
Thank you for your reply - but guess what, I AM using option 2 - I have my debit card linked there, not a credit card, and still Paypal IS doing the double charge. I have a few auctions up right now that say I accept Paypal - but as soon as they close, all my new auctions will NOT say I accept Paypal cos now I am on to Option 3 - CLOSING MY PAYPAL ACCOUNT!
Hi Twin I am learning a lot from all of you - yes I am new here and trying to learn the ropes. My music is selling pretty well! I'm very happy! For me, I think it's in my best interest to stick with accepting M.O.s and checks ONLY. I am only doing small sales here with my recordings, this is not my full time business. But it is a great side business while I am doing my music. I don't really think closing Paypal will affect my sales, because I suspect whoever wants to buy my music will buy it from me anyway... it's not as though they can find it anywhere else, I am the one producing it and distributing it. So I think it will be okay... we shall see. Time will tell, right?
[ edited by nycrocker on Dec 9, 2000 07:10 PM ]
[ edited by nycrocker on Dec 9, 2000 07:11 PM ]
posted on December 9, 2000 08:17:09 PM
Hello Fountainhouse,
Without access to the numbers I wouldn't even dare to hazard a guess as to how many users of PayPal have complaints.
PaypalDamon has posted some numbers and one could speculate given those numbers. I won't because those numbers are not broken down enough to gauge the impact of the complaints and problems.
For example, a problem with an account that does thousands of dollars per day in PayPal transactions is obviously more significant than a problem with an account that does the odd $10 or $20 dollar transaction every month or so.
It is no easy task to gauge what percentage of complaints or problems find their way to a public arena like AW.
Perhaps the best one might do is to assiduously log each complaint as it appears here and on the other auction boards (eBay, OTWA, etc.). Then over a period of months, one might be able to discern a trend.
posted on December 10, 2000 12:24:47 AM
Hi code, I realize there's lots of variables and unknowns, but just for the heck of it I did some calculations using paypaldamon's estimates. (Please note, there is absolutely nothing scientific about the following totals.)
He says customer service receives 6-14K emails/day. I averaged that to 10K/day and multiplied by 365 to get an estimated total of emails/year. According to damon, 80-90% of these emails are routine in nature; I averaged that to 85%. The resulting totals would indicate that 3.1 million of the 3.65 million emails sent to PP customer service are for routine inquiries.
The remaining 15%, or 547,500, are, as damon says, "Account specific problems (fraud or buyer/seller protection claims take longer because of the investigation that is needed)."
Half-a-million emails dealing with fraud or protection claims ... from a user base of 5 million. Certainly all of the emails don't pertain to unique problems, so if we arbitrarily throw out half of them as duplicates, that would still indicate that as many as 1 in 20 users experience fraud or protection problems.
Those odds are just a little too high for my peace of mind.
posted on December 10, 2000 12:59:26 AM
Fountainhouse, that's interesting. I was wondering about the totals for strictly sellers. Here's my guesstimate.
Four out of 100 users polled expressed dissatisfaction. I'm going to guess that 20% of those are sellers. And also that sellers have a much higher higher rate of dissatisfaction. So let's say out of 100 polled, 20 are sellers, and of those 20, three were unhappy.
Fifteen percent dissatisfaction among a customer base? Ouch. If I tried to sell on eBay with that kind of rating I'd be laughed off the Internet. (Of course, I could improve business by advertising "always free" or some other kind of blatant misrepresentation of my product.)
posted on December 10, 2000 01:20:19 AM
The really interesting part, twin, is that I suspect the actual numbers are much higher than damon's posted estimates. Of course, I have no other evidence than my correspondence with my customers to support that opinion.
But, hey, we're nothing but hysterical whiners; what do we know?
[ edited by fountainhouse on Dec 10, 2000 01:21 AM ]
posted on December 10, 2000 01:22:17 AM
A search at eBay for
+"no longer" +paypal
returned 42,500 hits.
These are eBay sellers who accepted Paypal, but no longer do. And of course, this only represents the sellers who say so in their ads. My guess is that Paypal has lost hundreds of thousands of customers in the past few months (since introducing business accounts).
(edited to add...)
Other search variations returned different results. For example,
+"no longer" +(accept, accepting) +Paypal
returned 36,000 hits.
Again, what's interesting is that these represent ex-customers who have discontinued the Paypal service.
posted on December 10, 2000 01:34:04 AM
FH, yer right, and I suspect Paypal is not telling us the whole story. If this is what Paypal is admitting to, think how bad it must really be!
posted on December 10, 2000 11:34:25 AM
Twin!! That was really brilliant doing that "no longer paypal" search. I am going to check out a lot of those auctions to see how the sellers are explaining it - if they do offer any explanation. Just last night I listed some new auctions and was almost one of those 36,000 to say "No Longer Accepting Paypal", but at the last minute I changed my mind and decided to just not include Paypal as an option, because first I wanted to see how other sellers are doing it. (In other words, just leaving it out? Or offering any explanation why?) That was a helpful hint and I am going to check this out. By the way, did I tell you you are my hero and I wanna be just like you when I grow up?
Rocker
posted on December 15, 2000 03:31:59 PM
nycrocker: Would you mind emailing me that phone number for Paypal? I would like to have a little chat with them myself. Thanks. ([email protected])
posted on December 16, 2000 01:16:24 AM
posted on December 10, 2000 01:22:17 AM by Twinsoft
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A search at eBay for
+"no longer" +paypal
returned 42,500 hits.
These are eBay sellers who accepted Paypal, but no longer do. And of course, this only represents the sellers who say so in their ads. My guess is that Paypal has lost hundreds of thousands of customers in the past few months (since introducing business accounts).
(edited to add...)
Other search variations returned different results. For example,
+"no longer" +(accept, accepting) +Paypal
returned 36,000 hits.
Again, what's interesting is that these represent ex-customers who have discontinued the Paypal service.
RESPONSE;
I did your search just as you did and I am sorry but this search is picking up listings of people who DO accept Paypal currently. Maybe you should have opened up the auction ads after your search to truly see if the ads says they NO LONGER ACCEPT PAYPAL.
Your finds and posting gives people a false impression... ( I am glad that I checked it out for myself and did not rely on your posting.)
In my search and in the first 50 auctions that were pulled up I only found 2 people that were not accepting Paypal or no longer accepted Paypal. Many people have never accepted Paypal and choose to add that they don't accept it, because of people asking them to start accepting it. My guess is that they ad this to ward off private e-mails from bidders wanting them to sign up for it.
Please understand that I am not defending Paypal... but facts are facts and people should get things right or check out their statements before posting.
[ edited by brigette on Dec 16, 2000 01:18 AM ]
[ edited by brigette on Dec 16, 2000 01:26 AM ]
posted on December 16, 2000 01:30:09 AM
Hi, Brigette. Yes, you are right. I found this out myself. (Also, of those auctions that do apply, many are from the same sellers.)
I'll admit the results I posted don't mean much. On the other hand, I'm sure many sellers have dropped Paypal but don't state so in their ads. I did, but I don't say "Sorry, no Paypal" in my ads.
NYCRocker, you are my hero too and I wanna be your groupie.
posted on December 16, 2000 01:47:42 AM
Brigette, just to add, a search of "no longer accept paypal" yields 3000+ hits, which is a much higher percentage than the results you reported. It would be difficult to do a search that includes all the possible permutations. I drew incorrect conclusions from my search, but I still believe many users are dropping Paypal.
In another thread I pointed to Paypal's latest terms of use. A user now may forfeit all money in their account if the user initiates a chargeback or if there is "unusual activity." What I don't understand is why anyone is still doing business with Paypal at all.
posted on December 16, 2000 02:04:03 AM
Rocker---now you stop that!!! You are going to give Twinny a swelled head---and believe me--you do NOT WANT Steve strutting around AW in that manner it is NOT A PRETTY SITE !!
Hi Steve
[ edited by Zazzie on Dec 16, 2000 02:05 AM ]
posted on December 16, 2000 02:23:04 AM
Steve....with all the crap I given you in past on your view about Canadians--why pray tell would you think I'm in California??
we're gonna get busted for derailing this thread....
That was really brilliant doing that "no longer paypal" search. I am going to check out a lot of those auctions to see how the sellers are explaining it - if they do offer any explanation. Just last night I listed some new auctions and was almost one of those 36,000 to say "No Longer Accepting Paypal", but at the last minute I changed my mind and decided to just not include Paypal as an option, because first I wanted to see how other sellers are doing it. (In other words, just leaving it out? Or offering any explanation why?) That was a helpful hint and I am going to check this out. By the way, did I tell you you are my hero and I wanna be just like you when I grow up? 
