posted on October 9, 2008 08:33:40 PM new
Congratulations! I'm impressed at what home schooled children can achieve. It is a tremendous burden for the parents, many who do not have the talent or cannot afford the time.
[ edited by pixiamom on Oct 9, 2008 08:34 PM ]
posted on October 9, 2008 08:58:53 PM newIt is my opinion, that contrary to what many will have you believe, a home schooled child can receive an equal, and sometimes better education than a traditional schooled child.
There is no question that this is possible. Sometimes.
It is a tremendous burden for the parents, many who do not have the talent or cannot afford the time.
And this is precisely why it's only sometimes. Very few states regulate home schooling to see that home schooled kids are keeping up on a grade level basis with their peers who actually go to school. In my 30+ years in the field of public education, it has been my experience that the overwhelming majority of students who enter or (often) re-enter the school system are 1 or more years behind their grade level peers in basic skills. Not only that, they're woefully unprepared with the social skills necessary to deal with the daily business of the school routine.
I support any parent's right to home school his or her child. I also believe those individuals should be required by the state to prove that they are competent to educate their children to state and federally required standards. If they are capable of providing their children with an education at home that is at least on par with that which the child will get in public school, they should have no issue with being able to prove it.
Congratulations to your step son. Among home schooled children, he is an exception.
posted on October 9, 2008 09:54:26 PM new
Bill, where do you live in Utah? We moved from Ogden to Southern Calif. in 2001. And congrats on your stepson's home schooling! I've noticed that most of the winners and runners-up in the national spelling bee have been home schooled. That's the bright side of it, and I do believe profe's take on it, too. Seems as though parents who home school their children absolutely need to see that they have organized group activity and lots of social contact outside the home.
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posted on October 9, 2008 10:30:19 PM new
The "exception"?????
"According to a report published by the Educational Resources Information Center (ERIC) and funded by the Office of Educational Research and Improvement, U.S. Department of Education, homeschool student achievement test scores were exceptionally high. The median scores for every subtest at every grade were well above those of public and Catholic/private-school students. On average, homeschool students in grades one to four performed one grade level above their age-level public/private school peers on achievement tests. Students who had been homeschooled their entire academic life had higher scholastic achievement test scores than students who had also attended other educational programs."
One interesting facet of the study noted that academic achievement was equally high regardless of whether the student was enrolled in a full-service curriculum, or whether the parent had a state-issued teaching certificate.
The study states, "Even with a conservative analysis of the data, the achievement levels of the homeschool students in the study were exceptional. Within each grade level and each skill area, the median scores for homeschool students fell between the 70th and 80th percentile of students nationwide and between the 60th and 70th percentile of Catholic/Private school students. For younger students, this is a one year lead. By the time homeschool students are in 8th grade, they are four years ahead of their public/private school counterparts."
posted on October 9, 2008 10:47:50 PM new
Okay, Bill, I get it! I am well aware of the socialization that occurs in LDS families and the wards. Your son sounds like a real winner.
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posted on October 10, 2008 06:29:57 AM new
Squirrel, the home school website you copied that post from did not include some salient disclaimers from the actual study report. See below.
The superior performance of home school students on achievement tests can easily be misinterpreted. This study does not demonstrate that home schooling is superior to public or private schools. It should not be cited as evidence that our public schools are failing. It does not indicate that children will perform better academically if they are home schooled. The design of this study and the data do not warrant such claims. All the comparisons of home school students with the general population and with the private school population in this report fail to consider a myriad of differences between home school and public school students. We have no information as to what the achievement levels of home school students would be had they been enrolled in public or private schools. This study only shows that a large group of parents choosing to make a commitment to home schooling were able to provide a very successful academic environment.............
This was not a controlled experiment. Students were not randomly assigned public, private or home schools. As a result, the reported achievement differences between groups do not control for background differences in the home school and general United States population and, more importantly, cannot be attributed to the type of school a child attends. Thus, the study was not designed to compare home schools with public or private schools. Such comparisons would be fraught with problems. Home schooling is typically one-on-one. Public schools typically have classes with 25 to 30 students and an extremely wide range of abilities and backgrounds. Home school parents are, by definition, heavily involved in their children's education; the same, unfortunately, is not true of all public or private school parents. Home schools can easily pace and adapt their curriculum; public and private schools typically have a mandated scope and sequence. The list of differences could continue.
It should be noted that it was not possible within the parameters of this study to evaluate whether this sample is truly representative of the entire population of home school students. Noting that the press had reported the results as if the sample had been random, Welner and Welner (1999) correctly cautioned that the results may not be an accurate portrayal of the home school population.
As I stated, it's been my experience with the students who return to school after being home schooled that they are behind. They are the ones for whom home schooling failed. The beauty of the home school situation is that a parent can attempt to home school a kid, and upon failing, send that kid back to the bad old public school they didn't want him to go to in the first place. Then the school can take the blame for his failure, and his failure won't be counted in the averaged achievement scores of all those brilliant home school students. What a smokin' deal
posted on October 10, 2008 09:28:26 AM new
Given the numbers involved and the difference in median scores the argument that "they might have gotten a bunch of smart kids" is a dramatic stretch.
The one was "one on one" vs class size is immaterial to the answer in question.
Anecdotal evidence is also nearly worthless. For example, in discussions such as "should I buy a service contract on my washing machine", you do the math and the answer is NO. Invariably somebody relates the story of their Uncle Louie who bought a service contract and had his washer break.
posted on October 10, 2008 10:03:20 AM newGiven the numbers involved and the difference in median scores the argument that "they might have gotten a bunch of smart kids" is a dramatic stretch.
It's not a stretch at all. The kids in these studies are very likely a "bunch of smart kids", as they are the ones who have been successful enough in home school to last long enough to take standardized tests. You may not be aware of the fact that many if not most states have neither the laws nor the way to enforce the testing of home schooled kids.There is no data available to suggest what percentage of home schooled kids actually take state standardized tests. It is not unreasonable at all to suspect that those who are actually tested are a fairly select group. Those kids who have problems or who are not doing well at home school are very often sent back to public school. These are the kids I deal with every year. For whatever reason, their homeschool experience has not served them well. Hardly "anecdotal" evidence.
posted on October 10, 2008 12:00:09 PM new
Parents want the best for their children,many parents feel they do not have the training,knowledge or talents to provide their kids a better education thru home training.
I often wonder if Andrea Yates sent her kids to school instead of home schooling,her kids may still be alive today?
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Gulag-a Soviet era concentration camp is now reincarnated as EBAY with 13,000 rules.
posted on October 10, 2008 12:10:05 PM new
I think the quality of home schooling depends on the parents. Some of us weren't cut out to be teachers and would do our children a great disservice to attempt to home school them. I know from trying to help my children with homework that I don't have the patience required of a teacher. My oldest daughter on the other hand is a natural teacher.
By the same token, not all public school teachers are good teachers. The kids are fortunate enough to have different teachers each year, so a bad teacher in the bunch doesn't necessarily mean a ruined education. A home schooled child with a bad teacher is doomed.
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posted on October 10, 2008 01:06:09 PM new
Arent there other variables which are not being tested ?or found out until later in life.
I would not want to deny my kids the opportunity to interact with other kids in a 'mini adult' environment,kind of like a rehearsal for the grown up world awaiting them.
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Gulag-a Soviet era concentration camp is now reincarnated as EBAY with 13,000 rules.
posted on October 13, 2008 04:22:00 PM newI often wonder if Andrea Yates sent her kids to school instead of home schooling,her kids may still be alive today?
That is a very good question. Her husband clearly did not pay attention to the signs and continued to push her. IMO, they were both guilty, she of murder and he was negligent in the very least. He may ask himself that question every day as well.
A poll is not a prediction. It is a snapshot of how people are thinking right now.
posted on October 13, 2008 05:22:52 PM new
I wonder if Andrea being a competitive swimmer with a trust fund is too much for her husband who preferred to keep her barefoot and pregnant at home!
Yes,Helen,the joy of not seeing your kids for a few hours and yet knowing they are safe and learning is a very good idea!Bring on the latte!
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Gulag-a Soviet era concentration camp is now reincarnated as EBAY with 13,000 rules.
posted on October 13, 2008 05:29:33 PM new
I like my White Chocolate Mocha! And yes, I prefer a few hours to myself.
A poll is not a prediction. It is a snapshot of how people are thinking right now.
posted on October 13, 2008 06:06:50 PM new
Kozersky, you began the thread by saying, "A few months ago, I dropped out of a conversation regarding home schooling, when the code words began appearing from a few of the posters."
Will you please explain what you mean by "code" words appearing from a few posters?
posted on October 13, 2008 06:42:45 PM new
Kozersky, this is the thread in which you also complained about "code speech" but nobody could find any. Then, without further comment you disappeared.
posted on October 13, 2008 07:07:07 PM new
Frankly, I don't believe that micromanaging a child from 6AM throughout the day is necessary or desirable. It's good that your son is getting along so well, but he probably could have succeeded as well or even better in a public school environment.
posted on October 13, 2008 07:26:43 PM new
I applaud Bill for home schooling. He is capable and has delivered superior results. I seriously doubt that his child would have done better in the public school system. Edited to add: private tutoring is not a new idea, many of our early presidents benefited from it. I would choose it for my son, if I had the talent/patience or resources for it.
[ edited by pixiamom on Oct 13, 2008 07:32 PM ]
posted on October 13, 2008 08:18:18 PM new
I disagree that homeschooling is superior or that private tutoring is necessary My children attended public schools and attended college classes while they were seniors in high school. They went on to obtain advanced degrees, a Masters Degree from the University of Maryland, BS from Johns Hopkins and a PhD from Yale.
And most important, they have been happy and well adjusted throughout their school years. They played in the band and took part in school activities such as the debate team. My daughter took flute and piano classes from a private teacher but other than that, I relied on the public schools in our moderately funded area of Montgomery County, Maryland.
posted on October 13, 2008 08:35:25 PM new
My children have attended public school and have received a wonderful education. My daughter has a JD/MBA now, one son is in college, another in high school. One of the reasons, I could not support McCain is his views on education and the voucher system.
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A poll is not a prediction. It is a snapshot of how people are thinking right now.
posted on October 14, 2008 04:47:15 AM new
Helen, it's been quite a while since I lived in the area, but my recollection of the schools in Montgomery County was that they were exceptionally good. My ex-wife went through their system, and for whatever else I could say about her, her education through high school was good.
My daughter is applying to a private school for next year (6th grade). My son attends the public schools here, is happy in them, and is getting a good education. My daughter has difficulties with the social aspect. Unfortunately, with the demographics of our area, most of the girls here are what I call twits: Trophy Wives In Training. My daughter is more of a tree-climbing, trout-fishing, hockey-playing kind of girl; no Prada on her! The boys are oblivious, and that's who most of her friends are.
Interesting economic tidbit: what with the economic situation, I would have thought that there would be fewer applicants for the private school, but they're still running 10 applicants for each opening.
posted on October 14, 2008 07:30:55 AM new
It's a shame that state and local funding for public schools is not equal throughout the United States. I've attended schools in Mississippi where funding per student is probably the lowest in the United States and in New Jersey where funding per student is among the highest.
Even within Montgomery County, Md. in the wealthier neighborhoods where property taxes are high there is a significant difference in school quality.
Like my parents in Mississippi, most people are not able to afford private schools. Cash, you are fortunate to have that option!
I know that we're lucky, although it isn't an amount of money that goes unnoticed.
We are relatively frugal, but there are certain things we are willing to spend on: school, directly through tuition or indirectly through property taxes, is one of them.
It's like the way I outfit my kids for ice hockey: I'll spend a lot for the right helmet for the kids, but I'm less willing to spend on the latest and greatest stick. You'd be surprised to see some of the kids with a $300 stick and a helmet I wouldn't put on a crash test dummy.
To your point about unequal education spending, our town sends roughly 1/3 of our property taxes to the county, which in turn gives it to Newark, NJ. Per pupil spending in Newark is more than per pupil spending in our town (Short Hills/Millburn), but on the one hand you have a crummy education and on the other one of the top rated in the US.
The new mayor of Newark, Corey Booker, seems to be an honest and honorable person, and he will try to clean up the corruption in Newark. I'm sure that it's an uphill struggle.
My older daughter taught in the inner city of Philadelphia a few years ago. They also had lots of money, but most of it seemed to go to brand new textbooks every year and very little to teachers or classrooms. Surprisingly enough, one of the administration was having a personal relationship with one of the book publishers. Who'da thunk it?
From http://enlightennj.blogspot.com/2007/12/updated-new-jersey-schools-rich-poor.html
Back in 1990, the group said there should be uniform spending per student across the state with little, if any leeway for local districts to spend more. The group’s plan back then was for an equalized per-pupil rate with local districts allowed to spend only 5 percent more per child. The New York Times had the story - New Jersey Schools: Rich, Poor, Unequal:
Marilyn J. Morheuser, head of the Education Law Center and its chief lawyer in the current court fight, says a uniform per-pupil spending level could require a handful of high-spending suburban districts to reduce programs or staff to get within a proscribed level.
Under her plan, 95 percent of all educational spending would fall within the equalized per-pupil rate and local districts could spend only 5 percent more per child.
"If there is any local leeway, it would be very narrow," Ms. Morheuser said.
Back in 1990, the ELC’s example of an overspending school district was Millburn, at $6,247 per student. The state’s average was $5,200 and a poor Abbott school district was spending only $4,867 per child.
By 2005, the state’s average cost per student was $13,800 and the Education Law Center was still complaining and suing for more funding for Abbott school districts. Millburn was spending $13,977 per student and the Abbott schools districts of Newark, Asbury Park and Hoboken were spending $22,829, $23,572 and $22,221 respectively. That’s 63 percent, 69 percent and 59 percent more per student than Millburn.
posted on October 14, 2008 09:42:33 AM new
Very interesting, Cash. I agree that it takes more than money to solve the problem.
That fact is illustrated by the superior schools in the Potomac area of Maryland which is known for it's influential and highly educated residents. They receive the same funds but like your personal priorities and budget, their priorities and management of the school budget is superior. In addition, some professional people live there who have more interest and time to devote to the school system than the residents of a poorer neighborhood might have. And, of course, the school administrators have a greater opportunity to hire employees from their neighborhood with advanced degrees.
BTW...I lived near Newark in a small town, Nutley.
You raise a good point. My wife and I always looked at our kids' homework, but since I've become a house-husband, I am much more in touch with how they're doing, can answer questions as they arise (well, sometimes anyway), be a volunteer presence at their schools, pick them up at school and discuss their school day, etc. I'm convinced it makes a big difference, and it is a luxury that few middle and lower income people have, with so many of them relying on double incomes to get by. In a sense, they get home schooling in the afternoon
One of the unexpected side effects in the financial industry over the past few years has been the entry of highly skilled ex-financial services workers into teaching. The person who hired me at my last "real" job (at a French bank) was laid off around 5 years ago. He went on to get his teacher's certification and teaches locally. In addition to being, I'm sure, a great teacher, he is also 10x happier than he was; he says it took a couple of years to get used to earning less, but he looks and sounds so much younger and happier than I remember him being in the past. He says that while some days are tougher than others, he ALWAYS heads to work knowing that he's doing something useful.
posted on October 14, 2008 01:43:58 PM new
And that's worth more than money!
Sometimes the best teachers with professional experience can be found at night school in local community colleges, for example. I found that's the case especially with illustration, design and photography classes. Plus, the classes are generally accelerated because the students are more experienced than you might find in classes held during the day. So, if anyone wants to take a refresher class taught by a pro, go to night school.
posted on October 14, 2008 06:52:19 PM new
Funny,IBM used to recruit teachers to teach computer courses.I attended a few.
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Gulag-a Soviet era concentration camp is now reincarnated as EBAY with 13,000 rules.
